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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nuclear Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 September 2007 at 5:29pm
Originally posted by stratoaxe stratoaxe wrote:

Addressing your argument-

If a person is going to stop coming at you, they will stop when the gun comes out. At that point, if they retreat you immediately find an officer and report the incident.

However, again, if they don't stop when you pull the gun, then no words you say are going to deter them. You then pull the trigger, and don't stop until they hit the ground.

It seems that hollywood has really glamourized what is in essence murder to save your own life. There are no Mexican standoffs in real life, there are no holding the gun to each other's heads trying to talk the other person down. When a gun comes out, generally one person dies.

 



If they find you and a dead guy with 16 holes in them, your in trouble.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote little devil Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 September 2007 at 5:30pm
how often are your lives in danger dammit!

Edited by little devil - 06 September 2007 at 5:38pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stratoaxe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 September 2007 at 5:32pm
Originally posted by Nuclear Nuclear wrote:

Originally posted by stratoaxe stratoaxe wrote:

Addressing your argument-

If a person is going to stop coming at you, they will stop when the gun comes out. At that point, if they retreat you immediately find an officer and report the incident.

However, again, if they don't stop when you pull the gun, then no words you say are going to deter them. You then pull the trigger, and don't stop until they hit the ground.

It seems that hollywood has really glamourized what is in essence murder to save your own life. There are no Mexican standoffs in real life, there are no holding the gun to each other's heads trying to talk the other person down. When a gun comes out, generally one person dies.

 



If they find you and a dead guy with 16 holes in them, your in trouble.

If you feel that way, you don't need a CCW man. Because this idea of "Stop fiend or I'll shoot!" and then cleanly popping someone in the head while dramatic music plays doesn't play off in real life. What if you miss?

You+dead guy=trouble. It doesn't matter what you said before he died, how many times you shot him, whatever. He's dead, you're alive, you're on trial and under investigation to prove your innocence in a murder case.

And even if you win, you'll probably face a lawsuit from his family, and then they're going to investigate if you used your handgun properly. Using a weapon isn't wine and roses, it's a last ditch life saving effort. Again and again, it's a right I believe you have, but one you should be educated in.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nuclear Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 September 2007 at 5:36pm
Originally posted by stratoaxe stratoaxe wrote:

Originally posted by Nuclear Nuclear wrote:

Originally posted by stratoaxe stratoaxe wrote:

Addressing your argument-

If a person is going to stop coming at you, they will stop when the gun comes out. At that point, if they retreat you immediately find an officer and report the incident.

However, again, if they don't stop when you pull the gun, then no words you say are going to deter them. You then pull the trigger, and don't stop until they hit the ground.

It seems that hollywood has really glamourized what is in essence murder to save your own life. There are no Mexican standoffs in real life, there are no holding the gun to each other's heads trying to talk the other person down. When a gun comes out, generally one person dies.

 



If they find you and a dead guy with 16 holes in them, your in trouble.

If you feel that way, you don't need a CCW man. Because this idea of "Stop fiend or I'll shoot!" and then cleanly popping someone in the head while dramatic music plays doesn't play off in real life. What if you miss?

You+dead guy=trouble. It doesn't matter what you said before he died, how many times you shot him, whatever. He's dead, you're alive, you're on trial and under investigation to prove your innocence in a murder case.

And even if you win, you'll probably face a lawsuit from his family, and then they're going to investigate if you used your handgun properly. Using a weapon isn't wine and roses, it's a last ditch life saving effort. Again and again, it's a right I believe you have, but one you should be educated in.



First off, shooting them in the head would screw you over for sure.

Second, as for how many i think 2 should be a good limit.Preferably one.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stratoaxe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 September 2007 at 5:42pm

Wait-what? I think we've lost each other in the argument here.

Are you talking about how many shots you put into someone attacking you?

You shoot them until they drop and are no longer a danger to your life. There's no set limit on how many "shots that takes". We're not talking counterstrike here.

*edit* Why would shooting someone in the head screw you?



Edited by stratoaxe - 06 September 2007 at 5:44pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nuclear Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 September 2007 at 5:44pm
Originally posted by stratoaxe stratoaxe wrote:

Wait-what? I think we've lost each other in the argument here.

Are you talking about how many shots you put into someone attacking you?

You shoot them until they drop and are no longer a danger to your life. There's no set limit on how many "shots that takes". We're not talking counterstrike here.

I am saying it won't look to good on your part if they find you shot a guy 16 times, most would call it wayyy overkill.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shub Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 September 2007 at 5:45pm
But if you shot him fifteen times and he attacked and killed you?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nuclear Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 September 2007 at 5:48pm
Originally posted by Shub Shub wrote:

But if you shot him fifteen times and he attacked and killed you?


After 15 shots, your dead, or on the ground.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stratoaxe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 September 2007 at 5:48pm

True, there's really no reason to shoot someone 16 times, but I never said there was. I said my pistol holds 16 rounds, all of which would be available for some nutcase to go on a shooting spree with if he took my gun from me while I hesitated.

I would hope that a double tap to the chest would do the trick, but if not, you have to remember that whole idea of using your CCW is to save your life, not to create an ideal encounter.

I'm enjoying this, I think we're getting to the core here-I'd dare say most people that carry a weapon (especially if you're sheltered and inexperienced with death) couldn't fathom looking down at a body with bloody holes twitching and gasping for breath from the bullets you just put into them.

That's life. You do that to keep the same fate from happening to you. You don't carry the gun to be an officer enforcing the law-that's why we have police. You mind your own buisness until your own or someone near you becomes endangered, and then you either face bloody reality or run and get an officer. There's no middle ground.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nuclear Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 September 2007 at 5:51pm
Originally posted by stratoaxe stratoaxe wrote:

True, there's really no reason to shoot someone 16 times, but I never said there was. I said my pistol holds 16 rounds, all of which would be available for some nutcase to go on a shooting spree with if he took my gun from me while I hesitated.

I would hope that a double tap to the chest would do the trick, but if not, you have to remember that whole idea of using your CCW is to save your life, not to create an ideal encounter.

I'm enjoying this, I think we're getting to the core here-I'd dare say most people that carry a weapon (especially if you're sheltered and inexperienced with death) couldn't fathom looking down at a body with bloody holes twitching and gasping for breath from the bullets you just put into them.

That's life. You do that to keep the same fate from happening to you. You don't carry the gun to be an officer enforcing the law-that's why we have police. You mind your own buisness until your own or someone near you becomes endangered, and then you either face bloody reality or run and get an officer. There's no middle ground.



The thing i really dis-agree on there is the hesitation, assuming you know how to shoot, your around going to be holding onto your gun with two hands, most people now that sideways ghetto crap is reserved for TV only.If you have a good hold on it and are able to send a warning shot, i think you would have enough control to shoot the person.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stratoaxe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 September 2007 at 5:57pm

But why a warning shot? A warning shot in real life translates into a stray bullet ricochet that could kill an innocent person.

You have to take into consideration adrenaline again-most people, probably including myself, would be so overtaken by fear in a life threatening situation, they'd fumble trying to get to their weapon. A CCW isn't on your side like an officer's pistol-it's in a place that's concealable.

So let's say it's around your ankle. You look up, and somewhere around ten feet from you is a crazed crackhead with a switchblade. Bear in mind he's going to be covering ground quickly. There's no instant reaction time, your mind is going to stumble for a moment by the shock of the situation. Assuming you've trained your mind for this, you go for your ankle holster. Unstrapping it takes a tenth of a second or so, then you pull it. By this time the crackhead is almost on top of you, and you have to get a good aim going.

Tell me-where in this type of situation are you going to find time for warning shots, verbal deterrence, or what have you?

Of course, that's about as ideal as a situation gets. More than likely they'll just walk up to you, stab you, and take your gun and your wallet, leaving you to bleed to death in the street. Odds are in the average robbery/murder situation, you'd never have time to excercise strategy, and probably would never even get the thought process going to operate a gun.

That's why I say-if the window of oppurtunity is there, you take your shots. You don't stop until the crackhead is on the ground dead.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BradNowell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 September 2007 at 5:57pm
Originally posted by Nuclear Nuclear wrote:

Originally posted by stratoaxe stratoaxe wrote:

True, there's really no reason to shoot someone 16 times, but I never said there was. I said my pistol holds 16 rounds, all of which would be available for some nutcase to go on a shooting spree with if he took my gun from me while I hesitated.

I would hope that a double tap to the chest would do the trick, but if not, you have to remember that whole idea of using your CCW is to save your life, not to create an ideal encounter.

I'm enjoying this, I think we're getting to the core here-I'd dare say most people that carry a weapon (especially if you're sheltered and inexperienced with death) couldn't fathom looking down at a body with bloody holes twitching and gasping for breath from the bullets you just put into them.

That's life. You do that to keep the same fate from happening to you. You don't carry the gun to be an officer enforcing the law-that's why we have police. You mind your own buisness until your own or someone near you becomes endangered, and then you either face bloody reality or run and get an officer. There's no middle ground.



The thing i really dis-agree on there is the hesitation, assuming you know how to shoot, your around going to be holding onto your gun with two hands, most people now that sideways ghetto crap is reserved for TV only.If you have a good hold on it and are able to send a warning shot, i think you would have enough control to shoot the person.


 have you read any of stratoaxe's posts. THERE IS NO WARNING SHOT!!!! You shoot to kill only when necessary.  Guns are made to kill people not negotiate.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nuclear Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 September 2007 at 5:58pm
While on the topic of holes, you said you have hydroshocks, common defense, super mushroom.Have you ever heard of Extreme Shock ? 1 well placed round from a 9MM can drop a buffalo.It's pricey, but how often will you be using that thing on someone ?

It mushrooms likes crazy, yet disintegrates when it hits walls and other hard stuff I don't think it could go through a person, but it would do serious damage

Link

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nuclear Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 September 2007 at 6:01pm
Originally posted by stratoaxe stratoaxe wrote:

But why a warning shot? A warning shot in real life translates into a stray bullet ricochet that could kill an innocent person.

You have to take into consideration adrenaline again-most people, probably including myself, would be so overtaken by fear in a life threatening situation, they'd fumble trying to get to their weapon. A CCW isn't on your side like an officer's pistol-it's in a place that's concealable.

So let's say it's around your ankle. You look up, and somewhere around ten feet from you is a crazed crackhead with a switchblade. Bear in mind he's going to be covering ground quickly. There's no instant reaction time, your mind is going to stumble for a moment by the shock of the situation. Assuming you've trained your mind for this, you go for your ankle holster. Unstrapping it takes a tenth of a second or so, then you pull it. By this time the crackhead is almost on top of you, and you have to get a good aim going.

Tell me-where in this type of situation are you going to find time for warning shots, verbal deterrence, or what have you?

Of course, that's about as ideal as a situation gets. More than likely they'll just walk up to you, stab you, and take your gun and your wallet, leaving you to bleed to death in the street. Odds are in the average robbery/murder situation, you'd never have time to excercise strategy, and probably would never even get the thought process going to operate a gun.

That's why I say-if the window of oppurtunity is there, you take your shots. You don't stop until the crackhead is on the ground dead.



I hear your point on the dangers of a stray shot, thats why the only time i would see it used is if you can put it into grass, somewhere you know it won't fly away.

And i don't think many use ankle holsters. If you wear that button up over shirts you can get a shoulder holster.Depending on how small the gun is you could also get a back pocket holster.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stratoaxe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 September 2007 at 6:01pm

Holy crap those are expensive...interesting though, cool design.

My only issue with that is the light grain bullet-an 85 grain bullet in a 9mm would have pretty low impact. Otherwise, cool find, never seen them before.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nuclear Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 September 2007 at 6:02pm
Originally posted by stratoaxe stratoaxe wrote:

Holy crap those are expensive...interesting though, cool design.

My only issue with that is the light grain bullet-an 85 grain bullet in a 9mm would have pretty low impact. Otherwise, cool find, never seen them before.



We picked up 6 rounds for $20.00 but chances are they would never be used.At least one would hope.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stratoaxe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 September 2007 at 6:06pm

I'm not trying to argue or make you look stupid man, but I just think that your ideas about CCW carry are kind of like sniping in paintball. While yes, you could excercise them, and you would be very wise to do so if the situation affords, in reality that situation would probably never exist. Most encounters are going to be at point blank range. Most people realize that if they're going to rob/assault a person, they need to do so in such a way that they can't fight back.

In a situation like this, the opposing party always has the upper hand. Even if you're carrying ten desert eagles, two of which are strapped to your testicles, and a grenade launcher in your ass.

I'd recommend everyone on here taking a self defense course that covers hand to hand combat before I'd recommend a CHL. It's your right to have one, but it's not always the most practical solution. There are other ways to defend yourself in a life or death situation besides a gun, and many times they're far superior.

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nuclear Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 September 2007 at 6:09pm
Originally posted by stratoaxe stratoaxe wrote:

I'm not trying to argue or make you look stupid man, but I just think that your ideas about CCW carry are kind of like sniping in paintball. While yes, you could excercise them, and you would be very wise to do so if the situation affords, in reality that situation would probably never exist. Most encounters are going to be at point blank range. Most people realize that if they're going to rob/assault a person, they need to do so in such a way that they can't fight back.

In a situation like this, the opposing party always has the upper hand. Even if you're carrying ten desert eagles, two of which are strapped to your testicles, and a grenade launcher in your ass.

I'd recommend everyone on here taking a self defense course that covers hand to hand combat before I'd recommend a CHL. It's your right to have one, but it's not always the most practical solution. There are other ways to defend yourself in a life or death situation besides a gun, and many times they're far superior.

 



It's true you should never have to use it in life, and realistically you never will, chances of you needing a gun to win are really slim, personally, if i had a gun i think i would run before i shoot if i could, much rather run and avoid the situation rather than shoot and have to deal with the legal system.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Panda Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 September 2007 at 6:09pm
why not use the edit button? Double posts make baby elephants cry.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stratoaxe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 September 2007 at 6:10pm
Originally posted by Nuclear Nuclear wrote:

Originally posted by stratoaxe stratoaxe wrote:

I'm not trying to argue or make you look stupid man, but I just think that your ideas about CCW carry are kind of like sniping in paintball. While yes, you could excercise them, and you would be very wise to do so if the situation affords, in reality that situation would probably never exist. Most encounters are going to be at point blank range. Most people realize that if they're going to rob/assault a person, they need to do so in such a way that they can't fight back.

In a situation like this, the opposing party always has the upper hand. Even if you're carrying ten desert eagles, two of which are strapped to your testicles, and a grenade launcher in your ass.

I'd recommend everyone on here taking a self defense course that covers hand to hand combat before I'd recommend a CHL. It's your right to have one, but it's not always the most practical solution. There are other ways to defend yourself in a life or death situation besides a gun, and many times they're far superior.

 



It's true you should never have to use it in life, and realistically you never will, chances of you needing a gun to win are really slim, personally, if i had a gun i think i would run before i shoot if i could, much rather run and avoid the situation rather than shoot and have to deal with the legal system.

And that is the intelligent way to feel. If you can get away without the loss of human life, then that is really the only option you should consider. I'd have no problem running, CCW flopping in the wind, away from an attacker.

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