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OMG CCW!!11

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stratoaxe View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stratoaxe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 September 2007 at 4:42pm
And carl my "ignorant anti-gun crowd" comment wasn't geared toward you, I was explaining American ignorance on gun ownership.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nuclear Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 September 2007 at 4:45pm
Originally posted by evillepaintball evillepaintball wrote:

Originally posted by Nuclear Nuclear wrote:

Originally posted by evillepaintball evillepaintball wrote:

Originally posted by Nuclear Nuclear wrote:

Originally posted by evillepaintball evillepaintball wrote:

Originally posted by Susan Storm Susan Storm wrote:

  No other common hand-held weapon in the history of man has had this ability.



crossbow?


Knife, brass knuckles, glass / glass knuckles, pipe, flapjack etc. All deadly, all hand-held.


you're leaving out a very specific detail that prevents your weapons from being valid.  i'll let you figure it out.


Projectile ?


reread susan's post that i took the quote from



I see
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carl_the_sniper View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote carl_the_sniper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 September 2007 at 4:45pm
Originally posted by stratoaxe stratoaxe wrote:

Originally posted by carl_the_sniper carl_the_sniper wrote:

Concerning the ccw point: Very valid point, one of the best brought up so far. I just have a problem with how easy it is to get a gun in America in comparison to Canada. Especially handguns which are very hard to get here and have strict rules on where they can be carried. It's not that the ccw program is bad, it teaches gun safety, but it still doesn't do a proper job of keeping the guns out of the hands of people who shouldn't have them. Also I have a problem with the fact that ccw's are for the sole purpose of killing people, in comparison to Canada, where our handgun program is geared towards hunting and target practice.


And I understand your concern with the American attitude toward CCW's (check my above post ).


A CCW is by defination carrying a concealed weapon. The only reason you need to carry a concealed weapon on your person or in your vehicle is personal defense-which is a candy coated term for killing people.


The CCW program was never designed to keep guns from criminals-really at it's core it ensures that those carrying weapons are A:) of legal age, B:) have some experience and very basic skills with their firearm, and C:) understand the consequences of using it. And the relatively heft fee (around 300 bucks when all is said in Texas) ensures that you're average street thug can't just run down and grab one.


Of course it also ensures that those with criminal histories aren't toting firearms.


The problem comes in when you blame the legal fix for the problem. The problem is illegal carry of weapons. Using the idea that very few murders have ever been committed by a civilian with a CHL, I can put forth the theory that people with CHL's tend to be responsible gun owners, and therefore should have the right to carry if they feel threatened by criminals.


As long as there are illegal guns on the streets, there should be a legal way to carry a weapon. Even if it can't guarantee saving your life, it can add a mental deterrent to those who would commit a crime against you.



Some good points.


Just a few that I'm gona comment on...

"around 300 bucks when all is said in Texas"
At least to me, $300 is nothing and wouldn't even come close to deterring me if I was a street thug. We have homeless people in Toronto that make more than that per day.

"Using the idea that very few murders have ever been committed by a civilian with a CHL,"
But is every handgun owned by a person with a ccw?
Are most handguns even owned by people with ccw's?

A question... do ccw courses actually involve marksmanship? Specifically, shooting lessons?


NUCLEAR: From what you described, it's not hard at all for someone who shouldn't to get a ccw.



Edited by carl_the_sniper - 06 September 2007 at 4:47pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nuclear Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 September 2007 at 4:50pm
Originally posted by carl_the_sniper carl_the_sniper wrote:

Originally posted by stratoaxe stratoaxe wrote:

Originally posted by carl_the_sniper carl_the_sniper wrote:

Concerning the ccw point: Very valid point, one of the best brought up so far. I just have a problem with how easy it is to get a gun in America in comparison to Canada. Especially handguns which are very hard to get here and have strict rules on where they can be carried. It's not that the ccw program is bad, it teaches gun safety, but it still doesn't do a proper job of keeping the guns out of the hands of people who shouldn't have them. Also I have a problem with the fact that ccw's are for the sole purpose of killing people, in comparison to Canada, where our handgun program is geared towards hunting and target practice.


And I understand your concern with the American attitude toward CCW's (check my above post ).


A CCW is by defination carrying a concealed weapon. The only reason you need to carry a concealed weapon on your person or in your vehicle is personal defense-which is a candy coated term for killing people.


The CCW program was never designed to keep guns from criminals-really at it's core it ensures that those carrying weapons are A:) of legal age, B:) have some experience and very basic skills with their firearm, and C:) understand the consequences of using it. And the relatively heft fee (around 300 bucks when all is said in Texas) ensures that you're average street thug can't just run down and grab one.


Of course it also ensures that those with criminal histories aren't toting firearms.


The problem comes in when you blame the legal fix for the problem. The problem is illegal carry of weapons. Using the idea that very few murders have ever been committed by a civilian with a CHL, I can put forth the theory that people with CHL's tend to be responsible gun owners, and therefore should have the right to carry if they feel threatened by criminals.


As long as there are illegal guns on the streets, there should be a legal way to carry a weapon. Even if it can't guarantee saving your life, it can add a mental deterrent to those who would commit a crime against you.



Some good points.


Just a few that I'm gona comment on...

"around 300 bucks when all is said in Texas"
At least to me, $300 is nothing and wouldn't even come close to deterring me if I was a street thug. We have homeless people in Toronto that make more than that per day.

"Using the idea that very few murders have ever been committed by a civilian with a CHL,"
But is every handgun owned by a person with a ccw?
Are most handguns even owned by people with ccw's?

A question... do ccw courses actually involve marksmanship? Specifically, shooting lessons?


NUCLEAR: From what you described, it's not hard at all for someone who shouldn't to get a ccw.



A CCW is the license that allows you to carry legally

Most CCW classes do covering shooting (actual shooting) when to shoot, where to shoot how to shoot and how to use cover ect.

A CCW is not easy to obtain, you must have one CLEAN record.And a big background check is also done, you must renew it as well.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rednekk98 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 September 2007 at 4:51pm
Story time:

After the fair, a few locals were drinking in a barn across the street from the fair. Ghetto bastard carnies came over and began to make rude comments to one person who was leaving, then to make equally rude sexual advances towards the girl he was with. Another local alerted the party-goers to what was occurring, and the barn emptied out to fight carnies.

Insults and taunts were being thrown about until the line was reached, then the carnies came out of their trailers and onto the guy's lawn after declaring "Get your bats boys there's gonna be a rumble." in their most intimidating ghetto fashion. Hicks, being used to dealing with bears, knew a bluff and stepped up.

At about this time I got my sister and her friend the hell out of there since there was little doubt the police would soon arrive if the situation did not spiral out of hand before that. I sat in the graveyard and looked for good escape routes for when the show ended.

Eventually one of the drunk hicks pulled a very real looking BB pistol. The carnies vacated the scene in short order. I stayed until I saw a state police cruiser come flying up the road and black out its lights, ran for the back of the cemetery, then had to avoid the other cruiser that had blocked off the lower road and called it a night. Nobody got hurt or arrested, and the cops did yell at the carnies for being stupid clowns.

This situation could have gone bad in the following ways:

After the hick pulled the BB gun, a carnie could have pulled their own gun and blown him, and pretty much anybody else he wanted to, straight to hell.

The police could have arrived and shot the drunk hick brandishing a BB gun.

The carnie could have attempted to get the BB gun away from the hick and been beaten to death. A lawyer would then brand the hicks as a "Hate crazed lynch mob, taking out aggression on a black man for making advances on a white woman." or some other such garbage.

Also, someone could have had their eye shot out.


I fully support people's rights to own a gun, but if you're going to carry it in public, you should have some level of training, or you could easily escalate a situation into a deadly one. Also, if you're carrying a gun, don't be a hot-head and go looking for a fight. I now if I were carrying, I would not want to risk a hand-to-hand fight and get shot with my own gun when he takes it away from me. Fighting with a handgun should be treated like a martial art, it's not just a tool, it's a mindset. Being able to arm yourself is a right, having the discipline to use arms is the responsibility that comes with it. If you don't want to train, buy mace or a taser.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stratoaxe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 September 2007 at 4:53pm

They involve very basic markmanship, specifically ten feet shots, I believe. Not really shooting lessons, but it requires ten hours of classroom time, and you're fingerprinted, background checked, and registered in a national registry. You're really marked and tracked as a CHL owner, and the gun you qualify with is registered to you.

Originally posted by carl the sniper carl the sniper wrote:

"Using the idea that very few murders have ever been committed by a civilian with a CHL,"
But is every handgun owned by a person with a ccw?
Are most handguns even owned by people with ccw's?

You can legally own a handgun without a CHL. However, again, I'm arguing in defense of CHL's. I'd have to switch modes to argue handgun ownership, and I think this thread would burst at the seams if we started going there. 

Staying on topic, the second part of that sentence is vital to it-CHL's tend to be more responsible. Not at all saying that they're well trained, or even understand their firearm as they should, but there is a huge responsibility to carrying a gun in public, and huge consequences.

If a legal gun owner carries his handgun in public without a license, he is no longer a legal gun owner, and is committing "Unlawful Carry", which I believe is a felony. At that point, he is exempt from my argument, and therefore becomes a criminal.

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Silent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 September 2007 at 4:53pm
A gun is not dangerous. Only the person carrying it is.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nuclear Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 September 2007 at 4:55pm
I think theres one big misconception to having a CCW, if someone does something like say their going to hit you or something, you can't just pull a gun and blast them.Even if you did the right thing and rightfully shot someone, you would have some serious court visits coming up.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Panda Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 September 2007 at 4:55pm
Originally posted by Susan Storm Susan Storm wrote:

Now, I generally caution against using crime stats out of context, but Meph - it would seem that your stats support Carl's point.

If Canada has higher assualt rates but lower murder rates, would that not support the thesis that guns convert assaults into homicide?



just means Americans are better shots.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BradNowell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 September 2007 at 4:58pm
Originally posted by Nuclear Nuclear wrote:



Yes that was sarcasm, obtaining a handgun is not easy.


 ive noticed that every topic you post in you try to be funny or witty or something. You fail almost every time and when someone calls you out on it you pull the same sarcasm excuse.


    But on he subject of guns, i believe that guns dont kill people, stupid people kill people.
"When I travel through mountainous areas or places of questionable hillbilly population, I usually keep a gun in the vehicle"

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote evillepaintball Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 September 2007 at 4:58pm
Originally posted by Silent Silent wrote:

A gun is not dangerous. Only the person carrying it is.


but the gun allows them to be dangerous
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rednekk98 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 September 2007 at 4:59pm
Originally posted by Silent Silent wrote:

A gun is not dangerous. Only the person carrying it is.
What about a zip-gun or a Japanese Nambu pistol? Those are pretty dangerous.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dune Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 September 2007 at 5:00pm

Originally posted by Nuclear Nuclear wrote:

I think theres one big misconception to having a CCW, if someone does something like say their going to hit you or something, you can't just pull a gun and blast them.Even if you did the right thing and rightfully shot someone, you would have some serious court visits coming up.

And there is a misconception that everyone with a CCW can shoot in a perfectly reasonable situation, under pressure, accurately with a civilian backdrop. Boy, police officers need to attend that one day CCW class that is offered around here if that's what you learn. Fact is, there isn't enough training in CCW classes to make me feel easier about general public carrying hand guns. Beef up the program, then we'll talk.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote carl_the_sniper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 September 2007 at 5:02pm
Ok, I've never had any problem with the ccw in comparison to not having a ccw.

I noticed that this arguement has changed direction drastically. My origional point was that in Canada, I have no reason to carry a handgun on me and that makes me happy.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stratoaxe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 September 2007 at 5:03pm

I'd like to address something-

The NRA pretty much made the term "Guns don't kill people, people kill people famous", but that's really just nitpicking terms. Guns are used to kill people every day on mass basis around the world. I love guns, and I'll argue for my (and any law-abiding citizen's) ability to own one. But you can't deny that guns are the weapon of choice for murder and accidental death around here. You may buy a Glock, Springfield, Sig, Beretta, HK, Colt, whatever, to shoot or own for funsies, but you should always bear in mind that gun was designed, produced, built, tested, and sold, with the intention of killing something.

There are only two uses for a gun-personal enjoyment, or killing. You're either collecting/shooting guns, or you're killing people. We have to keep that in mind in these discussions.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nuclear Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 September 2007 at 5:04pm
Originally posted by BradNowell BradNowell wrote:

Originally posted by Nuclear Nuclear wrote:



Yes that was sarcasm, obtaining a handgun is not easy.


 ive noticed that every topic you post in you try to be funny or witty or something. You fail almost every time and when someone calls you out on it you pull the same sarcasm excuse.


    But on he subject of guns, i believe that guns dont kill people, stupid people kill people.



That was not supposed to be funny sarcasm.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stratoaxe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 September 2007 at 5:05pm

Originally posted by carl_the_sniper carl_the_sniper wrote:

Ok, I've never had any problem with the ccw in comparison to not having a ccw.

I noticed that this arguement has changed direction drastically. My origional point was that in Canada, I have no reason to carry a handgun on me and that makes me happy.

lol...it's a little offtrack. To your original point-I feel no less safe without a handgun. It's a right that I defend, but one that I'll rarely excercise. There is little reason to carry a handgun on you in most places (read:most).

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nuclear Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 September 2007 at 5:05pm
Originally posted by stratoaxe stratoaxe wrote:

I'd like to address something-

The NRA pretty much made the term "Guns don't kill people, people kill people famous", but that's really just nitpicking terms. Guns are used to kill people every day on mass basis around the world. I love guns, and I'll argue for my (and any law-abiding citizen's) ability to own one. But you can't deny that guns are the weapon of choice for murder and accidental death around here. You may buy a Glock, Springfield, Sig, Beretta, HK, Colt, whatever, to shoot or own for funsies, but you should always bear in mind that gun was designed, produced, built, tested, and sold, with the intention of killing something.

There are only two uses for a gun-personal enjoyment, or killing. You're either collecting/shooting guns, or you're killing people. We have to keep that in mind in these discussions.



Yes the gun was basically made to kill, but some guns are made strictly for target shooting.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nuclear Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 September 2007 at 5:07pm
Originally posted by stratoaxe stratoaxe wrote:

Originally posted by carl_the_sniper carl_the_sniper wrote:

Ok, I've never had any problem with the ccw in comparison to not having a ccw.

I noticed that this arguement has changed direction drastically. My origional point was that in Canada, I have no reason to carry a handgun on me and that makes me happy.

lol...it's a little offtrack. To your original point-I feel no less safe without a handgun. It's a right that I defend, but one that I'll rarely excercise. There is little reason to carry a handgun on you in most places (read:most).



when your in downtown Detroit, you want a gun.Same goes for up north and such, personally i wouldn't carry everyday all overt with me, only if i planned to go somewhere, i don't think its really smart to ALWAYS carry.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stratoaxe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 September 2007 at 5:08pm

Originally posted by Nuclear Nuclear wrote:


Yes the gun was basically made to kill, but some guns are made strictly for target shooting.

In reality they're modified to suit their purpose. But every competition gun is a killing tool in disguise.

Think of it like cars built for racing-they may not even be road legal, but deep down inside, they have seats, pedals, and a steering wheel. They're still built to drive.

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