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carl_the_sniper View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote carl_the_sniper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 September 2007 at 4:13pm
Originally posted by Nuclear Nuclear wrote:


I don't really get how the number of deaths/ murders we have relates to people legally carrying a gun ?
Canada has more registered guns per capita than America. America has more gun murders per capita than Canada.

That's why the argument is valid.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nuclear Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 September 2007 at 4:15pm
Originally posted by Dune Dune wrote:

Originally posted by Susan Storm Susan Storm wrote:

I strongly encourage Nuclear and NC1004 to read strato's post in its entirety.

Agreed. Nuclear seems to think that just because you have a CCW, you're exempt from doubt.

In my experiences, I fear anyone carrying a weapon in a stressful situation. It doesn't matter if it's someone who is illegally carrying, or a civilian that took a class. I don't trust either and I will never trust either.



Never said their perfect, but people legally carrying don't go out everyday and say "gee, how many people should i shoot today ?"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stratoaxe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 September 2007 at 4:15pm

Originally posted by carl_the_sniper carl_the_sniper wrote:

Originally posted by Nuclear Nuclear wrote:


I don't really get how the number of deaths/ murders we have relates to people legally carrying a gun ?
Canada has more registered guns per capita than America. America has more gun murders per capita than Canada.

That's why the argument is valid.

Because every legal gun in Canada is registered, if I'm correct. Federally, I don't believe that Americans are required to register their weapons, so that argument is void.

And I'll add to that-gun registration has little to do with the argument of CHL.



Edited by stratoaxe - 06 September 2007 at 4:18pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nuclear Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 September 2007 at 4:17pm
Originally posted by carl_the_sniper carl_the_sniper wrote:

Originally posted by Nuclear Nuclear wrote:


I don't really get how the number of deaths/ murders we have relates to people legally carrying a gun ?
Canada has more registered guns per capita than America. America has more gun murders per capita than Canada.

That's why the argument is valid.



But not every gun murder was committed by a legally carrying person.

Half of them were probably unregistered guns.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote evillepaintball Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 September 2007 at 4:23pm
Originally posted by Susan Storm Susan Storm wrote:

  No other common hand-held weapon in the history of man has had this ability.



crossbow?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nuclear Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 September 2007 at 4:24pm
Originally posted by evillepaintball evillepaintball wrote:

Originally posted by Susan Storm Susan Storm wrote:

  No other common hand-held weapon in the history of man has had this ability.



crossbow?


Knife, brass knuckles, glass / glass knuckles, pipe, flapjack etc. All deadly, all hand-held.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dune Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 September 2007 at 4:25pm
Originally posted by Nuclear Nuclear wrote:

Originally posted by evillepaintball evillepaintball wrote:

Originally posted by Susan Storm Susan Storm wrote:

  No other common hand-held weapon in the history of man has had this ability.



crossbow?


Knife, brass knuckles, glass / glass knuckles, pipe, flapjack etc. All deadly, all hand-held.

Most things could be deadly, including your vehicle. However, there is a distinct difference when you are speaking of firearms.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote carl_the_sniper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 September 2007 at 4:28pm
Originally posted by stratoaxe stratoaxe wrote:

Originally posted by carl_the_sniper carl_the_sniper wrote:

Originally posted by Mephistopheles Mephistopheles wrote:

Violent Crimes US: 475 per 100,000 Canada: 963 per 100,000 Sexual Assault Crimes US: 32.1 per 100,000 Canada: 74 per 100,000 Assaulte Rate US: 295 per 100,000 Canada: 746 per 100,000 Enjoy the ride back to Canada on your high horse. Just be careful you don't get assaulted or raped when ya cross the border.
Assaults and sexual assaults have nothing to do with the point that I had brought up. I mean... I could just as easily change it even more to show total crimes: Canada: 75 per 1000 people United States: 80 per 1000 people But... what does that have to do with this debate? ...Nothing But here's something that does contribute to ccw's specifically: United States: 0.40577 deaths by handgun per 1 million people Canada: 0.0304832 deaths by handgun per 1 million people That's over 13 times the deaths.


How many of those American deaths involved a legal CHL? Bear in mind this discussion is about the legitimacy/need for a CHL. Nobody here would argue that we'd be better off if less criminals had handguns. But the idea that not allowing a law-abiding citizen to carry a gun would make a massive impact gun crimes is the idea that I'm trying to combat. I don't believe it would, and I don't think you'll see a lot of correlation when it comes to high crame rates and CHL's.


And the idea that a full on gun ban would make matters any better is a folley as well, IMO. I believe that you'd see a temporary drop in crime as the ban was enforced, but like every other American law, as enforcement dropped, it's my prediction that the crime rates would rocket higher than before.


I hate to bring this up, but look at Washington D.C.



Concerning the ccw point:

Very valid point, one of the best brought up so far. I just have a problem with how easy it is to get a gun in America in comparison to Canada. Especially handguns which are very hard to get here and have strict rules on where they can be carried. It's not that the ccw program is bad, it teaches gun safety, but it still doesn't do a proper job of keeping the guns out of the hands of people who shouldn't have them.

Also I have a problem with the fact that ccw's are for the sole purpose of killing people, in comparison to Canada, where our handgun program is geared towards hunting and target practice.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stratoaxe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 September 2007 at 4:28pm

The problem we're having with firearms in America has little to do with CHL's or gun registration-it's the general loose attitude towards guns we have.

The problem doesn't come in when a law abiding citizen purchases a gun, it comes in when someone steals said gun, then sells it for crack. That gun then goes to some crack dealer, who sells it to same gangster kid, who then uses it in a drive by halfway across the country.

Unfortunately, like in every issue in America, you see the two extremes of ignorance-

People who know nothing of firearms, but only that they're evil weapons of mass destruction, and the primary source of America's crime problems

People who nothing of firearms, but feel that through movies, books, games, the internet, family, or even ownership, they are experts and therefore qualified to carry the responsibility of a deadly weapon.

There is a middle ground though, and there are lots of law abiding gun owners. I find it interesting that many people choose to own firearms, but hide them from their children and talk about them like they're poison. My dad taught me how to handle weapons at an incredibly early age-I had shot a wide variety of guns by twelve years old. My dad never had to lock away the guns in the attic-I understood the danger and responsibility of a gun, so I didn't bother them when mom or dad were away. Unfortunately through the ignorance of society, just like with sex, and political/moral issues, kids are being raised by the television, and the TV only shows the ugly, deadly side of guns.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nuclear Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 September 2007 at 4:29pm
Ahh yes, getting a pistol is so easy, buy it waiting period, police chief checks it out and then some.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote evillepaintball Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 September 2007 at 4:31pm
Originally posted by Nuclear Nuclear wrote:

Originally posted by evillepaintball evillepaintball wrote:

Originally posted by Susan Storm Susan Storm wrote:

  No other common hand-held weapon in the history of man has had this ability.



crossbow?


Knife, brass knuckles, glass / glass knuckles, pipe, flapjack etc. All deadly, all hand-held.


you're leaving out a very specific detail that prevents your weapons from being valid.  i'll let you figure it out.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote carl_the_sniper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 September 2007 at 4:31pm
Originally posted by stratoaxe stratoaxe wrote:

Originally posted by carl_the_sniper carl_the_sniper wrote:

Originally posted by Nuclear Nuclear wrote:

I don't really get how the number of deaths/ murders we have relates to people legally carrying a gun ?
Canada has more registered guns per capita than America. America has more gun murders per capita than Canada. That's why the argument is valid.


Because every legal gun in Canada is registered, if I'm correct. Federally, I don't believe that Americans are required to register their weapons, so that argument is void.


And I'll add to that-gun registration has little to do with the argument of CHL.

I meant registered guns in Canada compared to total in the US. (which is every legal gun in canada as well as every in the US) ...Making the argument valid.
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Originally posted by stratoaxe stratoaxe wrote:

The problem we're having with firearms in America has little to do with CHL's or gun registration-it's the general loose attitude towards guns we have.


The problem doesn't come in when a law abiding citizen purchases a gun, it comes in when someone steals said gun, then sells it for crack. That gun then goes to some crack dealer, who sells it to same gangster kid, who then uses it in a drive by halfway across the country.


Unfortunately, like in every issue in America, you see the two extremes of ignorance-


People who know nothing of firearms, but only that they're evil weapons of mass destruction, and the primary source of America's crime problems


People who nothing of firearms, but feel that through movies, books, games, the internet, family, or even ownership, they are experts and therefore qualified to carry the responsibility of a deadly weapon.



I'm not sure if this was geared to me or not, so I will address it.

1)I have no problem with guns.
2)I have fired lots of guns.
3)Though I have no gun or gun license, I am trained in how to safely operate a range, gun and everything around it.

I may own a gun someday... maybe even a handgun. But the only reason that I would buy it would be for fun, not protection. (though range shooting is sorta boring)

Originally posted by nuclear nuclear wrote:

Ahh yes, getting a pistol is so easy, buy it waiting period, police chief checks it out and then some.

Were you being sarcastic? Because I really hope you weren't.

Edited by carl_the_sniper - 06 September 2007 at 4:38pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stratoaxe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 September 2007 at 4:37pm

Originally posted by carl_the_sniper carl_the_sniper wrote:


Concerning the ccw point:

Very valid point, one of the best brought up so far. I just have a problem with how easy it is to get a gun in America in comparison to Canada. Especially handguns which are very hard to get here and have strict rules on where they can be carried. It's not that the ccw program is bad, it teaches gun safety, but it still doesn't do a proper job of keeping the guns out of the hands of people who shouldn't have them.

Also I have a problem with the fact that ccw's are for the sole purpose of killing people, in comparison to Canada, where our handgun program is geared towards hunting and target practice.

And I understand your concern with the American attitude toward CCW's (check my above post ).

A CCW is by defination carrying a concealed weapon. The only reason you need to carry a concealed weapon on your person or in your vehicle is personal defense-which is a candy coated term for killing people.

The CCW program was never designed to keep guns from criminals-really at it's core it ensures that those carrying weapons are A:) of legal age, B:) have some experience and very basic skills with their firearm, and C:) understand the consequences of using it. And the relatively heft fee (around 300 bucks when all is said in Texas) ensures that you're average street thug can't just run down and grab one.

Of course it also ensures that those with criminal histories aren't toting firearms.

The problem comes in when you blame the legal fix for the problem. The problem is illegal carry of weapons. Using the idea that very few murders have ever been committed by a civilian with a CHL, I can put forth the theory that people with CHL's tend to be responsible gun owners, and therefore should have the right to carry if they feel threatened by criminals.

As long as there are illegal guns on the streets, there should be a legal way to carry a weapon. Even if it can't guarantee saving your life, it can add a mental deterrent to those who would commit a crime against you.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote evillepaintball Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 September 2007 at 4:38pm
either way, there are many many more variables involved than just gun laws that influence crime rates.  there's the issues of the many differing demographics, poverty, gangs, drug businesses, etc.  My point is, that there are so many differences that affect crime between the two countries, that one can't reasonably explain the difference in murder rates on one single variable.  In my opinion, this entire thread is void.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stratoaxe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 September 2007 at 4:39pm
Originally posted by carl_the_sniper carl_the_sniper wrote:

Originally posted by stratoaxe stratoaxe wrote:

Originally posted by carl_the_sniper carl_the_sniper wrote:

Originally posted by Nuclear Nuclear wrote:

I don't really get how the number of deaths/ murders we have relates to people legally carrying a gun ?
Canada has more registered guns per capita than America. America has more gun murders per capita than Canada. That's why the argument is valid.


Because every legal gun in Canada is registered, if I'm correct. Federally, I don't believe that Americans are required to register their weapons, so that argument is void.


And I'll add to that-gun registration has little to do with the argument of CHL.

I meant registered guns in Canada compared to total in the US. (which is every legal gun in canada as well as every in the US) ...Making the argument valid.

But Canada doesn't have more legal guns per capita than the US.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nuclear Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 September 2007 at 4:39pm
Originally posted by evillepaintball evillepaintball wrote:

Originally posted by Nuclear Nuclear wrote:

Originally posted by evillepaintball evillepaintball wrote:

Originally posted by Susan Storm Susan Storm wrote:

  No other common hand-held weapon in the history of man has had this ability.



crossbow?


Knife, brass knuckles, glass / glass knuckles, pipe, flapjack etc. All deadly, all hand-held.


you're leaving out a very specific detail that prevents your weapons from being valid.  i'll let you figure it out.


Projectile ?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Susan Storm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 September 2007 at 4:39pm
Originally posted by evillepaintball evillepaintball wrote:

Originally posted by Susan Storm Susan Storm wrote:

  No other common hand-held weapon in the history of man has had this ability.



crossbow?

Close second.  Good call. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote evillepaintball Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 September 2007 at 4:40pm
Originally posted by Nuclear Nuclear wrote:

Originally posted by evillepaintball evillepaintball wrote:

Originally posted by Nuclear Nuclear wrote:

Originally posted by evillepaintball evillepaintball wrote:

Originally posted by Susan Storm Susan Storm wrote:

  No other common hand-held weapon in the history of man has had this ability.



crossbow?


Knife, brass knuckles, glass / glass knuckles, pipe, flapjack etc. All deadly, all hand-held.


you're leaving out a very specific detail that prevents your weapons from being valid.  i'll let you figure it out.


Projectile ?


reread susan's post that i took the quote from
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nuclear Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 September 2007 at 4:41pm
Originally posted by carl_the_sniper carl_the_sniper wrote:

Originally posted by stratoaxe stratoaxe wrote:

The problem we're having with firearms in America has little to do with CHL's or gun registration-it's the general loose attitude towards guns we have.


The problem doesn't come in when a law abiding citizen purchases a gun, it comes in when someone steals said gun, then sells it for crack. That gun then goes to some crack dealer, who sells it to same gangster kid, who then uses it in a drive by halfway across the country.


Unfortunately, like in every issue in America, you see the two extremes of ignorance-


People who know nothing of firearms, but only that they're evil weapons of mass destruction, and the primary source of America's crime problems


People who nothing of firearms, but feel that through movies, books, games, the internet, family, or even ownership, they are experts and therefore qualified to carry the responsibility of a deadly weapon.



I'm not sure if this was geared to me or not, so I will address it.

1)I have no problem with guns.
2)I have fired lots of guns.
3)Though I have no gun or gun license, I am trained in how to safely operate a range, gun and everything around it.

I may own a gun someday... maybe even a handgun. But the only reason that I would buy it would be for fun, not protection. (though range shooting is sorta boring)

Originally posted by nuclear nuclear wrote:

Ahh yes, getting a pistol is so easy, buy it waiting period, police chief checks it out and then some.

Were you being sarcastic? Because I really hope you weren't.


Yes that was sarcasm, obtaining a handgun is not easy.
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