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High Times for the CA State Legislature

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    Posted: 08 August 2007 at 8:08am
Marijuana Dealers Offer Schwarzenegger One Billion Dollars

Thoughts and opinions anyone? Personally, I say go for it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote little devil Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 August 2007 at 8:22am
Link wont work for me. I dunno?
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LOL MARY JANE
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gatyr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 August 2007 at 9:01am
HIGH times!! GEDDIT?!?

Page doesn't work for me either.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brihard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 August 2007 at 2:06pm
Page works for me.

Rather reasonable, actually. I agree with their position. Treat pot like alcohol.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Benjichang Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 August 2007 at 2:13pm
I hope they go for it as well. If California legalizes pot and it works, then the rest of the country could follow.
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From another debate on another paintball forum


Quote There are many problems with comparing alcohol and marijuana but I'll go over a few points and see what you have to say about it.

Point one - alcohol is a substance known to every civilization in all of recorded history. It is deeply rooted in all cultures and there exist many rituals and traditions surrounding it. It holds religious significance in many cultures and has been the catalyst for significant portions of our own history in America. Marijuana is not nearly on the same level. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that all of that means something but it is something to consider. Age and history are just that and nothing more - I simply think it is wise that we take history into account in this comparison.

Point two - alcohol is present in more forms than is marijuana. This changes the social concept of alcohol significantly. Few people would argue that a 22oz. can of King Cobra is anything but a delivery method for intoxication. At the same time, a $300 bottle of Bordeaux is elevated as an art form. Even my favorite form, beer, has a varied public response because of different factors. Again, this doesn't necessarily mean anything but it is something to consider.

Point three - the physical effects of alcohol and marijuana are vastly different. We can agree that they are very different drugs, of course, and I would think that they should be considered differently. Again, nothing hidden here, just pointing that out.

Point four - the methods of manufacture and distribution are different. The method of delivery is different, the packaging is different, etc. I don't mean to say that changes anything about the drugs themselves but when considering other impacts (such as on trade) it is a good idea to be aware of these differences.

Point five - political pressure and industry desires. It's silly to assume that someone out there isn't making money off of both alcohol and marijuana regardless of their legality and status. Also consider that the political responsibility of such a decision is huge for a number of reasons. Once you allow the public to do something it is very difficult to change your mind and take it back. Also consider that retroactive amnesty may be required in a large number of cases. Also consider that there will be unforseen effects regardless of the decision. Given that condition, would it not be wise to play it on the safe side in the face of uncertainty? Again, just keep this is mind.



Now, about the analogy itself and a few reasons why it is a poor one:
The delivery method for marijuana is different and directly causes physical harm to the user. We can agree that burning something and inhaling the smoke into your lungs is not particularly good for you. Open-air combustion is only complete in the case of certain extremely simple fuels and plant matter is certainly not one of them. Carbon monoxide, unburned compounds ("tar") and so on become unavoidable products of the delivery method. As a legitimate counter-argument, marijuana can be ingested as far as I am aware.

Also, cigarette smoking is legal despite the health issues. Remember, however, that there are regulations about cigarette usage. Public buildings and even businesses in many states are out-of-bounds for smoking. There are the obvious hazards of carrying an ignition source in certain other environments and other legitimate reasons why cigarette smoking should be restricted. Just to keep that in mind.

Alcohol also has similar restrictions. You can not carry or consume it in many public areas, parks, schools, etc. You can not be under the infuence of alcohol when operating a motor vehicle or other machinery and most employers including the federal and state governments prohibit alcohol consumption on the job or being under the influence of alcohol when reporting to work. There are regulations for certain professions in terms of when individuals can drink, how much they can consume and so on. Military regulations are especially strict in terms of alcohol. Speaking of the military, there are certain requirements that must be met in order to be accepted into service. The largest disqualifier is obesity but the second is prior illegal drug use, principally marijuana. Should marijuana become legalized, what would that mean for the military?

Alcohol can be consumed principally for its flavor and not necessarily its effects. Marijuana really has one purpose. I can accept that some people enjoy the taste of cigarettes and so I can assume that it is possible to enjoy marijuana's odor but everything I have been told points to exactly the opposite. From my understanding it is a downright vile experience... you know, except for the subsequent high. And here comes this big problem with the comparison -


Alcohol can be consumed in a manner and quantity that does not make significant emphasis on its ability to intoxicate.


Aside from medical uses, (which I will admit that there are - but there are already perscriptions available for those purposes) the purpose of using marijuana is strictly to achieve a high. The fact that alcohol can be abused the achieve the same effect is a different matter entirely. Paint thinner, Robitussin and dozens of other substances can also get you high. Am I saying that drunkenness is undesirable or detestable? Not necessarily but that is why you're supposed to drink responsibly. Again, the effects of alcohol needn't be the primary reason for use unlike marijuana. I won't even get into the possible health benefits of alcohol use.



Lastly, and I know some people will try to argue with me on this point but, I've seen too many people destroy their brains through the use of marijuana to even consider that it is not a dangerous, permanently damaging substance. It's not just a joke from a Chappelle movie. Unfortunately, I have known many, many people who have literally smoked themselves retarded.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote High Voltage Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 August 2007 at 2:18pm

For those who can't get the link to work..

Originally posted by stopthedrugwar.org stopthedrugwar.org wrote:

Press Release: Marijuana Dealers Offer Schwarzenegger One Billion Dollars
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE: August 6, 2007

Marijuana Dealers Offer Schwarzenegger One Billion Dollars

August 6 -- A coalition of California marijuana growers and dealers has offered Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger one billion dollars to solve the current state budget crisis. The group, calling itself Let Us Pay Taxes makes the offer through its web site LetUsPayTaxes.com. The offer comes at a time when the California legislature is deadlocked on a new budget and California has stopped issuing checks for vitally needed social services. Legislators are currently arguing over which programs will be cut in order to balance the budget.

“It is ridiculous that California can’t pay its bills,” said spokesman Clifford Schaffer. “It is a tragedy that they will cut badly needed services and programs such as medical care for the elderly and prison drug treatment when the money to fund all these programs and more is there and available. Everyone who is currently waiting for a check from the state should be enraged at this foolishness.”

Regulation and taxation of marijuana could produce six billion dollars in additional tax revenue, according to economic studies linked from their web site LetUsPayTaxes.com. In addition, it could save up to ten billion dollars in enforcement costs. “That is a conservative estimate,” said Schaffer. “By other estimates, the revenues could be five times that. The economists are with us all the way on this one. Marijuana prohibition is an economic disaster.”

“Let’s face reality,” Schaffer says. “Marijuana legalization is inevitable. The situation is already beyond control in California. The state and local authorities have offered safe harbor for medical marijuana use and the Federal Government simply doesn’t have the resources for effective control.” More importantly, says Schaffer, the operators of the medical marijuana clubs are no longer afraid of the Federal Government. “If you talk to them, you will find that they know they are going to win this battle. They know that the DEA is vastly outnumbered and can’t begin to prosecute all of them. The few that are prosecuted are accepting their fate as martyrs because they know that what they are doing is right. They are willing to sacrifice themselves to make the point that the Federal Government has just gone too far in interfering with very personal and private decisions. There is no way the DEA is going to win this battle. At this point, it is all over but the counting of the money – and the victims of the DEA.”

Schaffer went on to say that the national market for marijuana has been estimated from a low of ten billion dollars per year to more than fifty billion dollars per year. “The first states to regulate and tax marijuana will receive an economic bonanza bigger than the original California Gold Rush,” says Schaffer. “Some states will get rich like the Saudis.” Schaffer predicts that it will not take long for some local areas to wake up to the economic possibilities. “We are talking potentially big bucks here,” he said. “The Canadians are already starting to take note of a cannabis-fueled economic boom in some areas. Politicians can’t resist fresh cash, especially when it is coming to their local community. There will be big winners and losers here. The winners will be the ones who recognize the foregone conclusion first.”

The group also cites foreign terrorism as a reason to regulate and tax marijuana. “Drug Czar John Walters is being dishonest when he says that marijuana money goes to criminals and terrorists. The only reason any of that money goes to criminals or terrorists is because of the prohibition that Walters supports,” said Schaffer. “Marijuana prohibition makes criminals rich just like alcohol prohibition did. The criminals are now so rich and powerful that they can challenge the legitimate governments of their own countries. There is no reason to send billions of dollars per year to foreign criminal gangs when patriotic Americans make the best products in the world. There is no reason to suffer such a huge foreign trade deficit when that money could be providing jobs and funding badly needed services right here in the USA.”

Let Us Pay Taxes calls upon all US citizens to sign their petition at their web site http://LetUsPayTaxes.com and press the issue with their lawmakers. “Take the money, please,” said Schaffer. “These people want to contribute. Now it is up to our politicians to tell us why they want to send those billions to foreign criminal gangs rather than to their own voters.”

Lol, idk why it went all caps.



Edited by High Voltage - 08 August 2007 at 2:19pm

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So long as smoking and drinking are legal (as if a great many people don't drink just to get drunk- massive shens on that one), pot ought to be as well.

I've never touched the stuff. Never will. Plenty of my friends have, and do- generally quite occasionally. They haven't turned into burnouts or losers, and moreover they use it far less frequently than most people usetobacco and or alcohol.

The arguments about packaging, distribution and productiona re valid ONLY because it currently is illegal. Legalize it, and a regular industry will grow almost overnight-likely very similar in nature to the tobacco industry.

I don't believe it's cost effective to fight pot. It's such a trivial problem that wasting tax dollars and limited police resources on it is almost inexcusable.

A general package of legislation ought to be introduced to treat pot the same as other currently legal substances. License it, tax it, restrict its use and regulate production and quality. Usage might increase somewhat, but probably not too much. Besides that, I don't think the government has a place telling people what they can and cannot ingest; it's a matter of free choice to me, despite my choosing not to.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Linus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 August 2007 at 2:26pm
Originally posted by Brihard Brihard wrote:

Besides that, I don't think the government has a place telling people what they can and cannot ingest; it's a matter of free choice to me, despite my choosing not to.


So Crack, Cocain, Meth, Heroin, X, PCP.. they should all be legal?

Edited by Linus - 08 August 2007 at 2:26pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote High Voltage Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 August 2007 at 2:33pm
Originally posted by Linus Linus wrote:

From another debate on another paintball forum


Quote There are many problems with comparing alcohol and marijuana but I'll go over a few points and see what you have to say about it.

Point one - alcohol is a substance known to every civilization in all of recorded history. It is deeply rooted in all cultures and there exist many rituals and traditions surrounding it. It holds religious significance in many cultures and has been the catalyst for significant portions of our own history in America. Marijuana is not nearly on the same level. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that all of that means something but it is something to consider. Age and history are just that and nothing more - I simply think it is wise that we take history into account in this comparison.

Point two - alcohol is present in more forms than is marijuana. This changes the social concept of alcohol significantly. Few people would argue that a 22oz. can of King Cobra is anything but a delivery method for intoxication. At the same time, a $300 bottle of Bordeaux is elevated as an art form. Even my favorite form, beer, has a varied public response because of different factors. Again, this doesn't necessarily mean anything but it is something to consider.

Point three - the physical effects of alcohol and marijuana are vastly different. We can agree that they are very different drugs, of course, and I would think that they should be considered differently. Again, nothing hidden here, just pointing that out.

Point four - the methods of manufacture and distribution are different. The method of delivery is different, the packaging is different, etc. I don't mean to say that changes anything about the drugs themselves but when considering other impacts (such as on trade) it is a good idea to be aware of these differences.

Point five - political pressure and industry desires. It's silly to assume that someone out there isn't making money off of both alcohol and marijuana regardless of their legality and status. Also consider that the political responsibility of such a decision is huge for a number of reasons. Once you allow the public to do something it is very difficult to change your mind and take it back. Also consider that retroactive amnesty may be required in a large number of cases. Also consider that there will be unforseen effects regardless of the decision. Given that condition, would it not be wise to play it on the safe side in the face of uncertainty? Again, just keep this is mind.



Now, about the analogy itself and a few reasons why it is a poor one:
The delivery method for marijuana is different and directly causes physical harm to the user. We can agree that burning something and inhaling the smoke into your lungs is not particularly good for you. Open-air combustion is only complete in the case of certain extremely simple fuels and plant matter is certainly not one of them. Carbon monoxide, unburned compounds ("tar") and so on become unavoidable products of the delivery method. As a legitimate counter-argument, marijuana can be ingested as far as I am aware.

Also, cigarette smoking is legal despite the health issues. Remember, however, that there are regulations about cigarette usage. Public buildings and even businesses in many states are out-of-bounds for smoking. There are the obvious hazards of carrying an ignition source in certain other environments and other legitimate reasons why cigarette smoking should be restricted. Just to keep that in mind.

Alcohol also has similar restrictions. You can not carry or consume it in many public areas, parks, schools, etc. You can not be under the infuence of alcohol when operating a motor vehicle or other machinery and most employers including the federal and state governments prohibit alcohol consumption on the job or being under the influence of alcohol when reporting to work. There are regulations for certain professions in terms of when individuals can drink, how much they can consume and so on. Military regulations are especially strict in terms of alcohol. Speaking of the military, there are certain requirements that must be met in order to be accepted into service. The largest disqualifier is obesity but the second is prior illegal drug use, principally marijuana. Should marijuana become legalized, what would that mean for the military?

Alcohol can be consumed principally for its flavor and not necessarily its effects. Marijuana really has one purpose. I can accept that some people enjoy the taste of cigarettes and so I can assume that it is possible to enjoy marijuana's odor but everything I have been told points to exactly the opposite. From my understanding it is a downright vile experience... you know, except for the subsequent high. And here comes this big problem with the comparison -


Alcohol can be consumed in a manner and quantity that does not make significant emphasis on its ability to intoxicate.


Aside from medical uses, (which I will admit that there are - but there are already perscriptions available for those purposes) the purpose of using marijuana is strictly to achieve a high. The fact that alcohol can be abused the achieve the same effect is a different matter entirely. Paint thinner, Robitussin and dozens of other substances can also get you high. Am I saying that drunkenness is undesirable or detestable? Not necessarily but that is why you're supposed to drink responsibly. Again, the effects of alcohol needn't be the primary reason for use unlike marijuana. I won't even get into the possible health benefits of alcohol use.



Lastly, and I know some people will try to argue with me on this point but, I've seen too many people destroy their brains through the use of marijuana to even consider that it is not a dangerous, permanently damaging substance. It's not just a joke from a Chappelle movie. Unfortunately, I have known many, many people who have literally smoked themselves retarded.

Get this crap out of my thread.. I was going to post a point by point rebuttal but after reading it all and especially that last paragraph I have come to the conclusion that this person has done NO research. He has never experienced marijuana, nor does he understand its effects. I mean hey, I can just type a bunch of crap and hope people take it as fact too.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Linus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 August 2007 at 2:37pm
HV, not once did I say it was fact, not once did I say I believed it... good job jumping to conclusions though. I put it up there for discussion.






But you cannot deny that marijuana (the illicit kind) is used for 1 purpose.. to get high. Alcohol is used to get drunk, yes, but it has other purposes too. Church anyone? Wine tasting?

Edited by Linus - 08 August 2007 at 2:37pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote High Voltage Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 August 2007 at 2:58pm
Right, it's not like marijuana has other purposes like easing nausea..

And Linus, why post meaningless babble(copypasta at that..) in a thread such as this? I wanted YOUR opinion, not some loser on another paintball forum who has never made an attempt to learn anything before trying to get his point accross. That's why I said "Thoughts and opinions anyone?" I want this forum's opinion on the matter.

Back on topic..
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mehs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 August 2007 at 2:58pm
Originally posted by Linus Linus wrote:

Originally posted by Brihard Brihard wrote:

Besides that, I don't think the government has a place telling people what they can and cannot ingest; it's a matter of free choice to me, despite my choosing not to.


So Crack, Cocain, Meth, Heroin, X, PCP.. they should all be legal?


There is a big difference between Marijuana and the drugs in which you listed.  Marijuana really does not harm the user at all (minus the lungs, if they do not eat it/use a vaporizer), while Crack just gets the user super addicted where they ruin their life, body, and mind as well, same with Coke (I have seen lives ruined by it, a girl I know who sucks men off for a bit of blow), Meth gets people super addicted, where it is impossible for them to stop, and they can do terrible things to their mind and body, such as scratch little spots on them which turns into a huge cut, ect.  Heroin is a terrible drug, it gets the user super addicted, and it makes it almost impossible for them to stop because the feeling is so great, and they have extreme withdrawals because of it, which can only be cured by more use.  Because of this, a lot of heroin users attempt to kill themselves.  MDMA is a little different, it just drains all of the serotonin (sp?) in the brain, which apparently comes back, but I need to do more research on it, but the majority of the MDMA is not in pure form, so it usually comes with other things too, sometimes even meth.  Trying PCP is like setting one foot in the grave, because you go insane for awhile, a lot of the times when you watch cops, and you see a naked black man running down a street with a sword, he's on PCP.  Marijuana should be legalized, but not these other drugs.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Linus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 August 2007 at 3:00pm
Originally posted by High Voltage High Voltage wrote:

Right, it's not like marijuana has other purposes like easing nausea..


Right becuase I didn't say "the illicit kind" at all in my post...


And Mehs, that comment was to Brihard saying people should do what they choose, slightly OT from the marijuana topic, but I wanted to know his take on it.



My opinion is this:

Medical marijuana-- Should be one of the last choices to do, not the end all be all of choices. There are other drugs that can help that don't have that stigma attached to them. IE.. I am fine with it for medical purposes.


Recreational marijuana-- Should not be allowed.

Edited by Linus - 08 August 2007 at 3:02pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote White o Light Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 August 2007 at 3:02pm
Originally posted by Linus Linus wrote:

HV, not once did I say it was fact, not once did I say I believed it... good job jumping to conclusions though. I put it up there for discussion.





But you cannot deny that marijuana (the illicit kind) is used for 1 purpose.. to get high. Alcohol is used to get drunk, yes, but it has other purposes too. Church anyone? Wine tasting?


Linus, it's too late to hide the fact that you agree with all you posted. And no it doesn't just have 1 use, to get high, to relieve the pain of cancer patients, and other medical uses. You are so misinformed it hurts.

My mom used to work in the bone marrow transplant branch of a hospital and she had many patients that the only time they weren't in excruciating pain was when they were given THC pills, It is a very good thing. Linus get your facts, then come back.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Linus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 August 2007 at 3:04pm
Wow, are you illiterate or what?

I said the ILLICIT kind has only one purpose. You even quoted that part.



Learn to read, then come back.

Edited by Linus - 08 August 2007 at 3:05pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote High Voltage Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 August 2007 at 3:05pm
Linus, try to pick up on the conversation afoot here.. I'm talking about marijuana as a whole. I'm fairly certain that where there are no medical marijuana laws (allowing its use), people still use it illicitly to achieve the same effects.

And for the love of god, stop throwing around the word illicit just to try to single out stoners. Focus on the topic, marijuana, not just illicit use. Which, under federal law, is all illegal.


Edited by High Voltage - 08 August 2007 at 3:08pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mehs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 August 2007 at 3:07pm
Originally posted by Linus Linus wrote:

Originally posted by High Voltage High Voltage wrote:

Right, it's not like marijuana has other purposes like easing nausea..

Medical marijuana-- Should be one of the last choices to do, not the end all be all of choices. There are other drugs that can help that don't have that stigma attached to them. IE.. I am fine with it for medical purposes.


Recreational marijuana-- Should not be allowed.


So what is your stance on alcohol use/tobacco use?  Those should not be allowed?  People use tobacco to get a tobacco buzz/high, college kids drink beer to get drunk, people smoke marijuana to get high as well, which makes me believe that your stance makes no sense at all.  Out of alcohol, tobacco, and marijuana, marijuana is actually the LEAST harmful substance out of the three, so why must it remain illegal, while the more harmful substances remain legal?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Benjichang Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 August 2007 at 3:13pm
Linus, quit spouting crap you watch on the O'Reilly Factor, or whatever it is you get your "facts" from.
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