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Susan Storm View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Susan Storm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 August 2007 at 6:47pm

Originally posted by Gatyr Gatyr wrote:

They exist and help, however lame the purposes or excuses may be. I'll concede that the way most stoners present the argument would lead one to believe that there is no other pain reliever on MJ's level, but strength and non addictive qualities could be a major selling point.

I have no doubt that pot has legitimate medicinal benefits.  That is not my point.  I am simply suggesting that, almost by definition, there exist BETTER medicines for the same purpose in the pharmacy.

Folk remedies are nifty and often work, but they are fundamentally unrefined and unquantified.  Why resort to an illegal folk remedy when there are more effective legal remedies available?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote High Voltage Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 August 2007 at 6:49pm
Originally posted by Susan Storm Susan Storm wrote:

Originally posted by Gatyr Gatyr wrote:

They exist and help, however lame the purposes or excuses may be. I'll concede that the way most stoners present the argument would lead one to believe that there is no other pain reliever on MJ's level, but strength and non addictive qualities could be a major selling point.

I have no doubt that pot has legitimate medicinal benefits.  That is not my point.  I am simply suggesting that, almost by definition, there exist BETTER medicines for the same purpose in the pharmacy.

Folk remedies are nifty and often work, but they are fundamentally unrefined and unquantified.  Why resort to an illegal folk remedy when there are more effective legal remedies available?


Because it also gets people high?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote choopie911 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 August 2007 at 6:49pm
Originally posted by Susan Storm Susan Storm wrote:

Originally posted by Gatyr Gatyr wrote:

Originally posted by Susan Storm Susan Storm wrote:

If I may be so bold - I do find the idea of "medicinal marijuana" rather silly.
You may not be so bold, but I'll humor you: Medicinal in that it eases the pain. Like morphine or various hydrocodone products.


Quite.


So if there are a variety of perfectly legal FDA-approved painkillers out there, why MJ? It is a rather flimsy ruse, really.


Maybe I'll have my doctor prescribe tequila to dull the pain of the last Packers season.


If you want to smoke pot, smoke pot. Don't be making up lamo excuses about "medicinal" purposes.



Because it has uses and benefits that extend further than "I'm high so I don't feel pain"
It's been proven that in chemo patients it reduces nausea and increases appetite. Yeah, I agree that the medicinal use aspects are abused/ overused, both in theory and in practice, but it does have many beneficial effects without the negative side effects that other synthetic meds seem to have. And if you cry foul on the fact that hot smoke isn't good for you, the user can vapourize it and then use it. No burnt plant material, no smoke, and it's cool, so no heat damage.
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Susan Storm View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Susan Storm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 August 2007 at 6:54pm

Originally posted by choopie911 choopie911 wrote:


Because it has uses and benefits that extend further than "I'm high so I don't feel pain"
It's been proven that in chemo patients it reduces nausea and increases appetite.

See my second post...

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oreomann33 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 August 2007 at 6:55pm
Marijuana is used for many, many other things besides a painkiller. Glaucoma, cerebral palsy, anorexia, arthritis, post traumatic stress disorder, depression, OCD, multiple sclerosis, not to mention the wasting syndrome involved with AIDS and cancer patients. The list goes on and on.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote High Voltage Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 August 2007 at 6:55pm
Originally posted by High Voltage High Voltage wrote:

Originally posted by Susan Storm Susan Storm wrote:

Originally posted by Gatyr Gatyr wrote:

They exist and help, however lame the purposes or excuses may be. I'll concede that the way most stoners present the argument would lead one to believe that there is no other pain reliever on MJ's level, but strength and non addictive qualities could be a major selling point.

I have no doubt that pot has legitimate medicinal benefits.  That is not my point.  I am simply suggesting that, almost by definition, there exist BETTER medicines for the same purpose in the pharmacy.

Folk remedies are nifty and often work, but they are fundamentally unrefined and unquantified.  Why resort to an illegal folk remedy when there are more effective legal remedies available?


Because it also gets people high?

I wonder if it costs less...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Susan Storm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 August 2007 at 6:56pm

Originally posted by oreomann33 oreomann33 wrote:

Marijuana is used for many, many other things besides a painkiller. Glaucoma, cerebral palsy, anorexia, arthritis, post traumatic stress disorder, depression, OCD, multiple sclerosis, not to mention the wasting syndrome involved with AIDS and cancer patients. The list goes on and on.

And my point stands.  Legal and more effective drugs are available for each of those.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote choopie911 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 August 2007 at 6:57pm
Originally posted by Susan Storm Susan Storm wrote:

Originally posted by choopie911 choopie911 wrote:

Because it has uses and benefits that extend further than "I'm high so I don't feel pain" It's been proven that in chemo patients it reduces nausea and increases appetite.


See my second post...



And see my post. Yes, there are meds available through a pharmacy that can increase appetite and decrease nausea, but the majority of these (and nearly all meds) have side effects that people simply do not want, and can be dangerous. Medicinal marijuana can provide the same benefits without the potential risk of negative side effects, even after prolonged use.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Susan Storm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 August 2007 at 6:57pm

Originally posted by High Voltage High Voltage wrote:

I wonder if it costs less...

Not if you have good health insurance...    :)

Your HMO won't pay for marijuana, medicinal or otherwise.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Susan Storm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 August 2007 at 7:00pm

Originally posted by choopie911 choopie911 wrote:

And see my post. Yes, there are meds available through a pharmacy that can increase appetite and decrease nausea, but the majority of these (and nearly all meds) have side effects that people simply do not want, and can be dangerous. Medicinal marijuana can provide the same benefits without the potential risk of negative side effects, even after prolonged use.

And there is the claim.

That claim, of course, is completely unsupported by science.  Better yet, I will wager large amounts of money that it is false, and probably has already been proven false in a lab someplace.

Marijuana fans, like all believers in folk remedies, have an irrational faith in the beauty of their particular remedy.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote High Voltage Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 August 2007 at 7:01pm
Oh not for me, I don't have a medical condition requiring it. I just agree with the idea and practice.

More for the poorer people you might find in those medical marijuana clinics(if you can call it that).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gatyr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 August 2007 at 7:05pm
Originally posted by Susan Storm Susan Storm wrote:

I have no doubt that pot has legitimate medicinal benefits.  That is not my point.  I am simply suggesting that, almost by definition, there exist BETTER medicines for the same purpose in the pharmacy.


Folk remedies are nifty and often work, but they are fundamentally unrefined and unquantified.  Why resort to an illegal folk remedy when there are more effective legal remedies available?


Agreed on both points, but I would guess that pharmaceutical companies, given the new legality of the plant, would be able to refine or enhance the THC and make it more than a folk remedy, and would be as effective as the potentially addictive pain medications.

Take away the legality, and you are absolutely correct, MJ is nothing more than a fun and quick fix that miscreants will love to abuse.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Susan Storm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 August 2007 at 7:11pm

Originally posted by Gatyr Gatyr wrote:

Agreed on both points, but I would guess that pharmaceutical companies, given the new legality of the plant, would be able to refine or enhance the THC and make it more than a folk remedy, and would be as effective as the potentially addictive pain medications.

My point exactly.  If THC (or some other element(s) of marijuana) were such a wonder drug, you would already be able to get it at Walgreens.

Pfizer would love to sell you any drug they can, including marijuana.  And they certainly could do so.  Many of the illegal street drugs have legal pharmacy analogues.  Buying morphine on the street is illegal - but it is stocked in every hospital. 

I would argue that the simple absence of any THC-related drugs on the market (anywhere in the world!) is powerful evidence that it ain't all it's cracked up to be.  My guess is that Pfizer et al have done lots of studies on marijuana, and have probably discovered that it has unacceptable side effects, or maybe that it is about as effective as the "vitamin supplements" you can buy in the health food aisle.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote choopie911 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 August 2007 at 7:11pm
Originally posted by Susan Storm Susan Storm wrote:

Originally posted by choopie911 choopie911 wrote:

And see my post. Yes, there are meds available through a pharmacy that can increase appetite and decrease nausea, but the majority of these (and nearly all meds) have side effects that people simply do not want, and can be dangerous. Medicinal marijuana can provide the same benefits without the potential risk of negative side effects, even after prolonged use.


And there is the claim.


That claim, of course, is completely unsupported by science. Better yet, I will wager large amounts of money that it is false, and probably has already been proven false in a lab someplace.


Marijuana fans, like all believers in folk remedies, have an irrational faith in the beauty of their particular remedy.



You really need to do some research then, as you seem to be quite behind the times. Modern science, and modern medicine support these claims. It has been proven time and time again that the old "kills braincells" and "it causes cancer" defenses are simply scare tactics and false information. The original reasons for marijuana's illegality has nothing to do with its potential to harm it's users, it was mostly a racial issue. Then they needed a way to keep it illegal, thus spawned "reefer madness"
Surprisingly, the original "facts" issued by the government to discourage marijuana use are still accepted as true, when nearly every recent study has proven them to be completely false.
And you say that there are better, more effective meds available?
Yes, in some cases. In other cases, as I've said, the cons far outweigh the pros.

Say you have a hangover, and you decide to take aspirin to take care of it. The alcohol you drank that gave you the hangover is completely legal, yet very bad for your health. The aspirin you took to take care of it is also completely legal, and one of your more effective meds. However, you're now at risk of gastrointestinal hemorrhaging because of the two perfectly legal and effective drugs being combined.

Yes, marijuana can have some adverse effects in some users, but have a look at the side effects of even just acetylsalicylic acid sometime. However, marijuana does not cause cancer, it does not kill brain cells, and it does not destroy your memory.
In some studies, marijuana has been shown to increase long term memory and actually prevent some types of cancer.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Susan Storm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 August 2007 at 7:12pm

Simul-post.

The proof is in the pudding.  If it worked, it would be on the shelf.



Edited by Susan Storm - 08 August 2007 at 7:13pm
"No society can surely be flourishing and happy, of which the far greater part of the members are poor and miserable."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gatyr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 August 2007 at 7:12pm
Originally posted by Susan Storm Susan Storm wrote:

Marijuana fans, like all believers in folk remedies, have an irrational faith in the beauty of their particular remedy.


If you are including me in this, I'd just like to point out that I have yet to ever lay hands/ingest marijuana in any way, ever.

And while the side effects might be uknown or embellished, It just doesn't seem likely that the effects would be as severe as others, but I guess that's the blind faith.

I am curious as to how a baby might be affected if her mother got high (not necessarily smoked or inhaled anything hazardous to her health) on a semi regular basis.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote choopie911 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 August 2007 at 7:19pm
Originally posted by Susan Storm Susan Storm wrote:

Originally posted by Gatyr Gatyr wrote:

Agreed on both points, but I would guess that pharmaceutical companies, given the new legality of the plant, would be able to refine or enhance the THC and make it more than a folk remedy, and would be as effective as the potentially addictive pain medications.


My point exactly. If THC (or some other element(s) of marijuana) were such a wonder drug, you would already be able to get it at Walgreens.


Pfizer would love to sell you any drug they can, including marijuana. And they certainly could do so. Many of the illegal street drugs have legal pharmacy analogues. Buying morphine on the street is illegal - but it is stocked in every hospital.


I would argue that the simple absence of any THC-related drugs on the market (anywhere in the world!) is powerful evidence that it ain't all it's cracked up to be. My guess is that Pfizer et al have done lots of studies on marijuana, and have probably discovered that it has unacceptable side effects, or maybe that it is about as effective as the "vitamin supplements" you can buy in the health food aisle.



Wow, bad form.... you call me out for using claims as fact then go do the same.

Either way, yes, many pharmaceutical companies would love to be able to sell you marijuana or ANYTHING they can make a buck off of if it helps a patient in the least, and if you were even remotely up to date on your facts you would know that they already do. Synthetic THC exists and is being sold by pharmaceutical companies even in the US. The substance is dronabinol, but it is sold as Marinol. It has been approved by the FDA in the treatment of anorexia in AIDS patients, as well as for refractory nausea and vomiting of patients undergoing chemotherapy.

As I've said before, you seem to be working with very out of date information of the topic at hand.


Originally posted by Susan Storm Susan Storm wrote:

Simul-post.


The proof is in the pudding. If it worked, it would be on the shelf.



Read above, it is.

Edited by choopie911 - 08 August 2007 at 7:24pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gatyr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 August 2007 at 7:20pm
Originally posted by Susan Storm Susan Storm wrote:

My point exactly.  If THC (or some other element(s) of marijuana) were such a wonder drug, you would already be able to get it at Walgreens.


Pfizer would love to sell you any drug they can, including marijuana.  And they certainly could do so.  Many of the illegal street drugs have legal pharmacy analogues.  Buying morphine on the street is illegal - but it is stocked in every hospital. 


I would argue that the simple absence of any THC-related drugs on the market (anywhere in the world!) is powerful evidence that it ain't all it's cracked up to be.  My guess is that Pfizer et al have done lots of studies on marijuana, and have probably discovered that it has unacceptable side effects, or maybe that it is about as effective as the "vitamin supplements" you can buy in the health food aisle.



I'm not trying to present it as the end all be all pain reliever, nor am I trying to convince you of such. Just trying to show you how people run with the mdicinal argument. Just an alternative that many people (would) find acceptable.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Susan Storm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 August 2007 at 7:28pm

Originally posted by chewp chewp wrote:

As I've said before, you seem to be working with very out of date information of the topic at hand.

Actually, I have virtually no information on the topic at hand.  I have done no personal research, and have no relevant personal knowledge - EXCEPT for an understanding of how markets work.

Originally posted by choopie911 choopie911 wrote:


Wow, bad form.... you call me out for using claims as fact then go do the same. Either way, yes, many pharmaceutical companies would love to be able to sell you marijuana or ANYTHING they can make a buck off of if it helps a patient in the least, and if you were even remotely up to date on your facts you would know that they already do. Synthetic THC exists and is being sold by pharmaceutical companies even in the US. The substance is dronabinol, but it is sold as Marinol. It has been approved by the FDA in the treatment of anorexia in AIDS patients, as well as for refractory nausea and vomiting of patients undergoing chemotherapy.

Au contraire, mon frere - first, I wasn't calling you out, but merely identifying in your post a claim I hear repeated often.  And nor was I using any claim as fact.

Instead, the simple things I can point to are this:  The FDA (in the US) approves drugs for public use.  Anything can potentially be approved for prescription, regardless of it's street legal status.

In order to get FDA approval, however, a drug must be tested extensively, and must (a) have some proven benefit, and (b) not have unacceptable side effects.

Apparently there is a THC capsule so approved.  I haven't looked.  But the sheer fact that there is no FDA-approved "marijuana" on the market, despite the HUGE demand, is proof positive that the drug companies have been unable to pass either hurdle (a) or (b).  I don't know which, but I am sure that the drug companies would love nothing more than to make legal prescription MJ.

The only reason I can think of why they have not is because they have been unable to, which means they failed at one of those two tests.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Evil Elvis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 August 2007 at 7:29pm
If we Legalized weed what would Cypress Hill rap about?
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