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Susan Storm View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Susan Storm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 August 2007 at 6:30pm

Originally posted by oldsoldier oldsoldier wrote:

But I did hear a lot of Jesus...God...and other references coming from a few positions occupied by self proclaimed "atheists" in my time.

Sure.  "Dear Irrational Manifestation" doesn't have the same ring as "Dear God".  Still does not require actual faith in an actual deity. 

Quote An would not an irrational superstition constitute a form of religion by definition?

Only if you consider avoiding black cats a "religion".  And even then, many people avoid black cats even though they know that black cats are harmless - they just don't feel the need to combat the admittedly irrational impulse to avoid the cats.

Just because I know that my behavior is irrational doesn't make it any less satisfying.

I like avoiding the cracks in the sidewalk.  It's not OCD, it's not a religion, and I know that it has no metaphysical effect.  It is just soothing to me.  Doesn't make me a member of the Church of Crack.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Susan Storm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 August 2007 at 6:31pm

Originally posted by Tolgak Tolgak wrote:

There are spiritual atheists out there too. They could have been praying to themselves for the motivation to do better.

Exactly.

"No society can surely be flourishing and happy, of which the far greater part of the members are poor and miserable."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gatyr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 August 2007 at 6:32pm
Meh.

I never (meaning of course hardly ever) said the pledge. I was forced (and I do mean forced) to stand up and place my right hand over my heart, but they never made me say the words.

I can understand how this is a problem, though, for the reasons cited by Tolga and Whale.

And I would rather live in Florida.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DBibeau855 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 August 2007 at 6:36pm
God... When the heck is the ACLU going to bring the smack down on UTAH!!!!

In the capital of Utah, no building can be taller than the LDS temple...

Single mothers cant rent an apartment by themselves.

The damn place is a straight theocracy, the the ACLU is concerned about words wich dont really do a whole lot but ruffle some feathers.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldsoldier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 August 2007 at 6:38pm
Can we call it "Momentary lapses into belief" as required by situation, a resumption of some ingrained belief learned through parental or other early social teachings..........its hard to stick to something when you are really not sure of the eventual outcome, would be a bummer at the Pearly Gates and St Peter puts you in the non-believer line to the down stairs....Little late to resume a belief system...........I am from the Ermey School, any religious honcho I can think of, when I am up to my armpits in alligators, and my pockets are filled with meat.................
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tolgak Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 August 2007 at 6:38pm
Originally posted by oldsoldier oldsoldier wrote:

But I did hear a lot of Jesus...God...and other references coming from a few positions occupied by self proclaimed "atheists" in my time. Mortars, rockets, bullets usually do not seperate believers from non-believers.

We live in a society that views religion so highly that agnostics still see hope in those ideas. It's human nature to look for anything that we think might help in stressful situations. I bet most of those prayers from the self-proclaimed started with "God, if you do exist..."

And even though the only "atheists" you saw were praying for help, who knows how many other individuals didn't pray? Even as a moderately religious person, I didn't bother praying in times that I could have used help. Now that I can say with certainty that there is no god in this universe, I will never pray in a time of need.

An would not an irrational superstition constitute a form of religion by definition?

No, it would just be an irrational superstition. Religions are entire systems of beliefs and values, not just a couple of ideas someone has about existence. In fact, it doesn't even have to involve supernatural powers at all, even though most do.

This is why atheism is not a religion, because all atheists only share one belief, that there are no deities. There is nothing else to define an atheist but that. There is also such a thing as religious humanism, which is a set of beliefs and morals to follow, no superstition involved.

Bored sitting in Lodi CA..............
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Susan Storm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 August 2007 at 6:45pm

Originally posted by oldsoldier oldsoldier wrote:

Can we call it "Momentary lapses into belief" as required by situation, a resumption of some ingrained belief learned through parental or other early social teachings...

Certainly also possible.  Much like theists have occasional doubts, so do many atheists.

Like I said, it is difficult to make a general statement about why prayer appears to be so popular in foxholes.

"No society can surely be flourishing and happy, of which the far greater part of the members are poor and miserable."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stratoaxe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 August 2007 at 6:50pm

I really don't understand the constant bickering between the right and left over the whole "under God" thing.

As a Christian the term "under God" is so vague that it couldn't possible uplift my beliefs in any way, so why do I care if they take it out?

On the flip side, if four words indoctrinate poor Billy into becoming a religious fanatic, then Billy should have been attending the special ed school to begin with.

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tolgak Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 August 2007 at 7:13pm
Originally posted by stratoaxe stratoaxe wrote:

I really don't understand the constant bickering between the right and left over the whole "under God" thing.

As a Christian the term "under God" is so vague that it couldn't possible uplift my beliefs in any way, so why do I care if they take it out?

It's not about uplifting beliefs. The reality is that few people, if any, truly care about those words in the pledge. The ones that want it in are just trying to make society the way they want it to be, one step at a time.

On the flip side, if four words indoctrinate poor Billy into becoming a religious fanatic, then Billy should have been attending the special ed school to begin with.

It's the same process that makes kids think they are Christians after a few years of going to church. You don't really understand what they're telling you to repeat, you just do it. After a while it grows on to you. As you develop the ability to reason, the "truths" that you've been indoctrinated to repeat become your arguments.

Adding "under god" isn't going to work in as extreme a way as you think I'm trying to say. It's just one step towards the Christian idea of a Utopia. Every time a kid says that pledge, he becomes a little more susceptible to accepting the entirety of it as truth. And one by one, over time, there will be more kids ending up religious as adults. It's only a slight effect that impacts few, but it's part of the reason why almost everybody in this country would be uneasy about denying deities.


Edited by Tolgak - 02 August 2007 at 7:19pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote travis75 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 August 2007 at 7:37pm
I think i will start saying "one nation above satan" to see what people do.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldsoldier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 August 2007 at 7:41pm
I still enjoy those who care to believe in no belief, finding those who differ from thier belief as offensive to thier belief, which must be held above anothers, another classic 2 way street. Truth is for those who care to believe in thier truth, and see others as believing in their untruth as "stupid". There is no God is just as hard to prove as there is a God, depending on belief.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Da Hui Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 August 2007 at 7:43pm
I've gotten in trouble for not saying the pledge.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brihard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 August 2007 at 7:56pm

Originally posted by oldsoldier oldsoldier wrote:

I still enjoy those who care to believe in no belief, finding those who differ from thier belief as offensive to thier belief, which must be held above anothers, another classic 2 way street. Truth is for those who care to believe in thier truth, and see others as believing in their untruth as "stupid". There is no God is just as hard to prove as there is a God, depending on belief.

 

Actually it's much harder to prove the lack of something than it is to prove its existence. In fact, it's pretty much impossible to prove completely the lack of something on such a grand scale.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stratoaxe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 August 2007 at 7:58pm
Originally posted by Tolgak Tolgak wrote:

Originally posted by stratoaxe stratoaxe wrote:

I really don't understand the constant bickering between the right and left over the whole "under God" thing.

As a Christian the term "under God" is so vague that it couldn't possible uplift my beliefs in any way, so why do I care if they take it out?

It's not about uplifting beliefs. The reality is that few people, if any, truly care about those words in the pledge. The ones that want it in are just trying to make society the way they want it to be, one step at a time.

On the flip side, if four words indoctrinate poor Billy into becoming a religious fanatic, then Billy should have been attending the special ed school to begin with.

It's the same process that makes kids think they are Christians after a few years of going to church. You don't really understand what they're telling you to repeat, you just do it. After a while it grows on to you. As you develop the ability to reason, the "truths" that you've been indoctrinated to repeat become your arguments.

Adding "under god" isn't going to work in as extreme a way as you think I'm trying to say. It's just one step towards the Christian idea of a Utopia. Every time a kid says that pledge, he becomes a little more susceptible to accepting the entirety of it as truth. And one by one, over time, there will be more kids ending up religious as adults. It's only a slight effect that impacts few, but it's part of the reason why almost everybody in this country would be uneasy about denying deities.

I wasn't really aiming that at anyone in particular, I was more referring to the constant debate that goes on about such a small issue.

I do think that you're mistaken about the whole "Christian utopia" however. I don't really know where you stand on religion, as it's almost impossible to fully soak in everything in these lengthy discussions, but I think the ruling misconception here on the forum is that most Christians are out to rule the world, which is simply not true.

Christianity (and I mean true Christianity, coming from the Bible) in reality should seek to seperate itself from society and government affairs. The Bible clearly seperates church from government.

However, the more modern self-defined Church (and I'll name drop here, I'm really speaking of the modern weekend warrior Baptist movement, and those like it) seeks to push its own into political power.

My question-what's wrong with that? People are free to elect and support what they agree with. Unfortunately I see alot of atheists who have a heightened sense of superiority, and feel that they are unquestionably correct, and only their opinions and voices should be heard. So by that reasoning, because Christians support religious legislation, they should not have their voices heard.

The idea really doesn't bother me, and to be honest I couldn't care less whether kids pray in school, whether In God We Trust is on my dollar, whether people pray at football games, or whether (gasp!) the president lays to claim to any religion whatsoever.

The idea that I'm somehow inferior to someone else because they choose not to hold a relgious belief offends me pretty deeply, however. To those people, get over yourself. Not believing in God doesn't raise your IQ or extend your penis. We get the point-you think we're idiots. Get this-most of us couldn't care less.

Just to clarify-I'm not speaking to Tolgak, or anyone else for that matter, with that rant, I just felt like venting.  /rant

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tolgak Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 August 2007 at 8:05pm
Originally posted by oldsoldier oldsoldier wrote:

I still enjoy those who care to believe in no belief, finding those who differ from thier belief as offensive to thier belief, which must be held above anothers, another classic 2 way street. Truth is for those who care to believe in thier truth, and see others as believing in their untruth as "stupid". There is no God is just as hard to prove as there is a God, depending on belief.


It's not that I'm offended, and I doubt most of the more outspoken atheists are either. We're just trying to point out that it's best not to acknowledge the idea at all as a government and leave it in the hands of the people to limit themselves for their beliefs. (By limit, I mean following religious rules, not denying the right to religion)

Acknowledging or denying it gives the government bias. Not mentioning it at all makes it neutral. The problem is that theists, specifically Christians, think they're being attacked when the decision is to leave the idea of god out of the argument.

We don't want the idea of deities acknowledged as communities, states, or as a country. In fact, I would be just as opposed to government denying the existence of deities.

Bottom line, people for true freedom and equality (that includes both theists and atheists) don't want government to consider religion and the belief in the supernatural in ANY decisions, unless belief can be used as evidence of association in a crime.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldsoldier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 August 2007 at 8:22pm
In the founding of the Nation, Faith as a tradition was the primary source of guidance on the then "human rights" issues. The use of God in several early writtings was fundimental in the establishment of the Nation, since at the time Religion was almost on par with education. Only recently did God and Religion become an issue, with the few over the many in this nation, where the many must change thier patterns of faith to accomidate the wishes of the few. The US was founded on Judeo-Christian beleifs modified and codified to establish the individuals rights. The State shall not establish a religion, or restrict the practice of any religion, was the guidance. Now many want the restriction of free religious practice in public, yet freedom to express thier views unrestricted. Show me the verbage "Seperation of Church and State" in any of the founding documents of this Nation.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DBibeau855 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 August 2007 at 8:26pm
But in the state of texas wanting to add "under God" into their pledge, have they not established or supported a religion? A beliefe in a diety? Wich diety is difficult to say, but it still raises the question..
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tolgak Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 August 2007 at 8:37pm
Originally posted by stratoaxe stratoaxe wrote:

I wasn't really aiming that at anyone in particular, I was more referring to the constant debate that goes on about such a small issue.

I do think that you're mistaken about the whole "Christian utopia" however. I don't really know where you stand on religion, as it's almost impossible to fully soak in everything in these lengthy discussions, but I think the ruling misconception here on the forum is that most Christians are out to rule the world, which is simply not true.

The problem with that misconception is that everybody on this forum knows at least a few people that agree with Christian control of this government, if not the world. It may be one out of dozens of Christians that each forumer knows, but that's one more person, and a family behind him, supporting the idea. Just like many stereotypes, it's so widespread among people that it's almost becoming true.

Christianity (and I mean true Christianity, coming from the Bible) in reality should seek to seperate itself from society and government affairs. The Bible clearly seperates church from government.

However, the more modern self-defined Church (and I'll name drop here, I'm really speaking of the modern weekend warrior Baptist movement, and those like it) seeks to push its own into political power.

My question-what's wrong with that? People are free to elect and support what they agree with. Unfortunately I see alot of atheists who have a heightened sense of superiority, and feel that they are unquestionably correct, and only their opinions and voices should be heard. So by that reasoning, because Christians support religious legislation, they should not have their voices heard.

The problem with that is that the "greatest nation in the world" will deteriorate into another theocracy (just like Iran, Saudi Arabia, and some other countries that the US hates for being religious) if there aren't people like us that are against those ideas. This country started off as a haven for those persecuted for their religion in Europe. The founding fathers intended this place to be a haven for anybody escaping tyranny. That's why they stressed liberty and individual freedoms so much. The religious in power (without realizing it) are working on taking this country back to the dark ages, where not following the state religion is a crime.

You want evidence for that? One of the biggest issues we have concerns the rights of gay people. There isn't a single non-religious reason that you can justify taking away their right to love each other like straight couples can. I've already explained how it wont raise STD rates. It's not anything unnatural, and who's right is it to say who people can prefer and what they can do that doesn't involve logically illegal activites? If you're religious, than you can try all you want to stop yourself from being gay. But to enforce this on other people is to enforce religion on the masses. And forget the founding fathers, being free from religious injustice should be a right to everyone on earth, not just people here.

The idea really doesn't bother me, and to be honest I couldn't care less whether kids pray in school, whether people pray at football games

We're happy with it as long as it is not required.

whether In God We Trust is on my dollar,

already explained the stance on that

, or whether (gasp!) the president lays to claim to any religion whatsoever.

as long as his beliefs don't end up becoming laws based solely on his opinions

The idea that I'm somehow inferior to someone else because they choose not to hold a relgious belief offends me pretty deeply, however. To those people, get over yourself. Not believing in God doesn't raise your IQ or extend your penis. We get the point-you think we're idiots. Get this-most of us couldn't care less.

The entire world looks at non-theists as inferior. You've got a minority against you and a majority behind you. Any atheist that says he is smarter for not believing is a moron.

What I can say is, that purely in terms of belief in deities, we are more rational. Not in terms of any other view. There are atheists that want to eliminate all religion and kill all the religious. As irrational as those thoughts are, it is still more rational to not believe in gods. By it's definition, faith is irrational. It should be easy for the even most devout to see that faith by its definition is irrational, so I don't think it should offend you to say that.

Just to clarify-I'm not speaking to Tolgak, or anyone else for that matter, with that rant, I just felt like venting.  /rant

Not speaking to stratoaxe specifically either. Just trying to show my perspective in response to the comments.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stratoaxe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 August 2007 at 9:06pm
Originally posted by Tolgak Tolgak wrote:

The problem with that misconception is that everybody on this forum knows at least a few people that agree with Christian control of this government, if not the world. It may be one out of dozens of Christians that each forumer knows, but that's one more person, and a family behind him, supporting the idea. Just like many stereotypes, it's so widespread among people that it's almost becoming true.

I think the general question here is what does Christian "control" refer to. I know lots of Christians who vote strictly based on religious belief. That doesn't mean that they want to control your life, they simply vote for those who align themselves with their beliefs.

Originally posted by Tolgak Tolgak wrote:

The problem with that is that the "greatest nation in the world" will deteriorate into another theocracy (just like Iran, Saudi Arabia, and some other countries that the US hates for being religious) if there aren't people like us that are against those ideas. This country started off as a haven for those persecuted for their religion in Europe. The founding fathers intended this place to be a haven for anybody escaping tyranny. That's why they stressed liberty and individual freedoms so much. The religious in power (without realizing it) are working on taking this country back to the dark ages, where not following the state religion is a crime.

You want evidence for that? One of the biggest issues we have concerns the rights of gay people. There isn't a single non-religious reason that you can justify taking away their right to love each other like straight couples can. I've already explained how it wont raise STD rates. It's not anything unnatural, and who's right is it to say who people can prefer and what they can do that doesn't involve logically illegal activites? If you're religious, than you can try all you want to stop yourself from being gay. But to enforce this on other people is to enforce religion on the masses. And forget the founding fathers, being free from religious injustice should be a right to everyone on earth, not just people here.

See, this is where the religious arguments really begin to frustrate me. Who the hell is trying to take away the rights of homosexuals to "love each other"? Now if you want to argue gay marriage, which is an argument of the definition of marriage, then by all means.

I'll bet if you asked every single Christian in Texas if they wanted homosexuality eradicated by way of law, you'd probably find that the vast majority would find that completely beyond comprehension. However, it is against Christian beliefs to be homosexual. If someone feels something is morally wrong, that doesn't automatically mean that person wants their moral beliefs enforced by law.

Originally posted by Tolgak Tolgak wrote:

The entire world looks at non-theists as inferior. You've got a minority against you and a majority behind you. Any atheist that says he is smarter for not believing is a moron.

What I can say is, that purely in terms of belief in deities, we are more rational. Not in terms of any other view. There are atheists that want to eliminate all religion and kill all the religious. As irrational as those thoughts are, it is still more rational to not believe in gods. By it's definition, faith is irrational. It should be easy for the even most devout to see that faith by its definition is irrational, so I don't think it should offend you to say that.

I'm not going to argue the rationality of faith, since it's insignificant to this discussion, but as I've said before it's easier to view faith as a set of moral beliefs with the inclusion of a deity than a set that is backed by a deity. It makes these discussions alot more civil.

And I'm not offended by anyone's beliefs-in fact, to take it a step further, in reality I'm not offended by too much of anything. To clarify what I meant, I see the same holier-than-thou snobbery among the "elite" atheists that they've been accusing the Christian right of for years. I don't see this in your responses, but I see it quite a bit on this forum.

If you choose to not believe in anything, then more power to you. I have friends who are atheists, it doesn't impact my opinion of them whatsoever. Unfortunately there are alot of atheists (just like any minority group) who want to cram their superiority down your throat every chance they get. I think it was a Dane Cook stand up I was watching on YouTube today where he mentioned a man on the subway sneezed, and so naturally he responded "God bless you." The man sneered and said, "Actually, I'm an atheist." It's pointless bickering like that I'm referring to. Yeah, they're atheists, we get it. That's awesome.

What this forum needs more of-atheist pilots.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldsoldier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 August 2007 at 9:21pm
That is the issue of today. The new religion now of individual self importance, I do not know your religion or faith, you sneeze, I use a traditional saying in friendship, and in your own self important world you respond with hostility towards a freindly gesture. No you were not an Atheist you at that point in time were an <TF censored word> plain and simple. The simple act of "God Bless You" to a sneeze, a long tradition, in today's PC world has become equivilent to "hate speech" to those too ingrossed in thier own little world to appreciate others. Too many want to become thier own little protected class above those around them, and anything they personally do not agree with is now offensive.

And as for Atheist pilots, its dark, starting to rain and your artificial horizon starts acting up, your compass and nav gear goes down, radio quits, and your fuel gauge is low, and you can not get a visual on the airport due to weather....I bet you still are an Atheist...

Edited by oldsoldier - 02 August 2007 at 9:24pm
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