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Texas being dumb, second act.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hades Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 August 2007 at 2:32pm
The oath in most courts has been changed. You don't have to swear over a bible is courtrooms. Where people with a brain that thinks for themselves live.

Adding it in at the state level is State sponsored religion, a first ammendment no,no.

Adding it in on a personal level is perfectly ok.

Hence the uproar.

Edited by Hades - 02 August 2007 at 2:34pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Man Bites Dog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 August 2007 at 2:32pm
Originally posted by Linus Linus wrote:

MBD, I know they are putting him in, I did read the article. You just failed to grasp what I was saying so I'll spell it out.

You said why not keep it out and have people put it in if they want.

I said why not keep it in and have people take it out if they want.

Got it now?



Sorry I guess we should remake all of our money, the Oath in court, our founding documents, etc etc.



Because God is not supposed to be endorsed by the government. Putting him in the pledge does just that. Leaving it out makes it nice and legal.

And yes, I support we start printing new bills without "In God We Trust." They already changed the court oath. But founding documents, no, they are historical, that would just be silly.




Edited by Man Bites Dog - 02 August 2007 at 2:33pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Susan Storm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 August 2007 at 2:52pm

All I know is that the bill was sponsored by Rep. Riddle (R-Tomball).

OMG!!!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote travis75 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 August 2007 at 2:55pm
Originally posted by Susan Storm Susan Storm wrote:

All I know is that the bill was sponsored by Rep. Riddle (R-Tomball).

OMG!!!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote usafpilot07 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 August 2007 at 3:06pm
Originally posted by travis75 travis75 wrote:

Originally posted by usafpilot07 usafpilot07 wrote:

Yeah. Because, you know... Putting everyone that believes in living a Christian life in Texas wouldn't be fifty times worse than the "offenses" that non-christians feel are placed on them. 


Note: This is not in reply to this situation in particular, just the general dislike of all Christians that seems to be the norm nowadays.  I mean; when a Christian stands up for their beliefs/values, they are being preachy and pompous, when anyone else talks about how christians shouldn't be allowed to preach or speak in public, they're upholding American values.
Most Christians i know think God gave them a right to rule the U.S. and call me the un-American one.  They say i am an anarchist and against freedom and that i need to leave this Christian country.  Also, do you think that maybe there is reason for this general dislike of Christians? 




That is just like judging all Muslims because of the acts of radical extremists.  People are always speaking up for the general prejudice against arabians, because of the common misconceptions based on the actions of terrorists, and yet, why does this defense not apply to Christians?

There will always be more vocal and strong-minded sects in larger, more encompassing, groups. 

I know, and am friends with, plenty of agnostics/atheists/muslims/whatever else you think Christians dislike. And you know what? I still worship my God how I believe.  Just because my beliefs are different than yours, doesn't mean that I'm like the radicals there. 

And yet, whenever a Christian proclaims what they feel is right, it's no longer protected by First Amendment?  The last time I checked, the Bill of Rights protects everyone, not just the vocal minorities. (Not racial minorities, just in general.)   Too often is it turned around to the point where Christians "preach" too much, and others should be allowed to attack these beliefs without barrier.

I'm not going to go into my views when it comes to the Church/State issue that is so often brought up, just because no one will ever change their mind.

Originally posted by Man Bites Dog Man Bites Dog wrote:

Originally posted by usafpilot07 usafpilot07 wrote:

Yeah. Because, you know... Putting everyone that believes in living a Christian life in Texas wouldn't be fifty times worse than the "offenses" that non-christians feel are placed on them. 





Nobody said put. I said give.

We should give them the state. They would jump on the opportunity to run their own country.


I'm just going to pretend that you only mean the most outspoken and smaller groups of Christians.  As most of us are perfectly happy living the way we do right now.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Man Bites Dog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 August 2007 at 3:28pm
Originally posted by usafpilot07 usafpilot07 wrote:


I'm just going to pretend that you only mean the most outspoken and smaller groups of Christians.  As most of us are perfectly happy living the way we do right now.


1) I mean the Christian right, and stated so.


2) "Most of us" also includes me.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tolgak Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 August 2007 at 4:08pm
Originally posted by Linus Linus wrote:

I said why not keep it in and have people take it out if they want. Because they deiced to put it in.


TL;DR: Adding god to the pledge is indoctrinating some kids to believe in god... or at least, not deny its existence.


There's the problem with having it in and claiming it can still be personal.

This is targeted towards kids. Who else but kids have to say it except in government proceedings?

You make a bunch of impressionable kids thoughtlessly repeat a pledge every day. Nobody ever takes the time to explain the pledge to these kids and only a few ever take the time to analyze it. They pass over the words as if it's nothing, and assume all of it is true. Add the idea of a god, and students add that to their ideas of truth.

I got a lot of people angry when stopped saying the pledge every morning. I stopped saying it because I realized I was insincerely and thoughtlessly repeating the words, and I thought it was ridiculous for anyone to support a ritual like that. They all thought it was almost criminal not to say it, because we've all said it hundreds of times before. They all thought I was anti-American and anti-god (which I am, now), not realizing the brainwashing effect that the ritual has on people.

This effect forces kids not to think about what they're saying. It's the same way religious proceedings indoctrinate people. Have them repeat something enough so that it becomes truth to them.

So by adding the idea of a god to something that young people are forced to say every day, you are indoctrinating the kids. It prevents the more obedient of kids from ruling out the idea of a god.

To religious people, specifically the Christian Right, this is great. Make them believe in god and get that first step out of the way. Let Christian influence from elsewhere convert them entirely. It improves the chances that kids become religious instead of coming to their own conclusions. As a result, more votes for the Republican party in the future.

To the idea of free thought and freedom of speech, this is horrible. These principals are what our country was built on, not religious ones. And yes, freedom of thought and speech is better than support of religion.


Now, why does it seem like America hates Christians? Well, it's because the Christians are the most powerful political force right now. We just want to prevent extremism from taking over. And it's very easy for moves like adding the idea of a god/gods to the pledge to morph into extremism. Small steps over time will do it. Add god, and it becomes OK to justify laws in the name of a god. After that, it becomes OK to persecute those who are against those religious beliefs.

We can already see what extremism did to some countries. Contrary to popular belief, that's NOT how everybody wants to live in those countries. If the Christian Right prevails, the US can become Saudi Arabia or Iran. Look into the past to see how awful religious leadership (especially Christianity) can do to innocent people.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote travis75 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 August 2007 at 4:40pm
Originally posted by Tolgak Tolgak wrote:

Originally posted by Linus Linus wrote:

I said why not keep it in and have people take it out if they want. Because they deiced to put it in.


TL;DR: Adding god to the pledge is indoctrinating some kids to believe in god... or at least, not deny its existence.


There's the problem with having it in and claiming it can still be personal.

This is targeted towards kids. Who else but kids have to say it except in government proceedings?

You make a bunch of impressionable kids thoughtlessly repeat a pledge every day. Nobody ever takes the time to explain the pledge to these kids and only a few ever take the time to analyze it. They pass over the words as if it's nothing, and assume all of it is true. Add the idea of a god, and students add that to their ideas of truth.

I got a lot of people angry when stopped saying the pledge every morning. I stopped saying it because I realized I was insincerely and thoughtlessly repeating the words, and I thought it was ridiculous for anyone to support a ritual like that. They all thought it was almost criminal not to say it, because we've all said it hundreds of times before. They all thought I was anti-American and anti-god (which I am, now), not realizing the brainwashing effect that the ritual has on people.

This effect forces kids not to think about what they're saying. It's the same way religious proceedings indoctrinate people. Have them repeat something enough so that it becomes truth to them.

So by adding the idea of a god to something that young people are forced to say every day, you are indoctrinating the kids. It prevents the more obedient of kids from ruling out the idea of a god.

To religious people, specifically the Christian Right, this is great. Make them believe in god and get that first step out of the way. Let Christian influence from elsewhere convert them entirely. It improves the chances that kids become religious instead of coming to their own conclusions. As a result, more votes for the Republican party in the future.

To the idea of free thought and freedom of speech, this is horrible. These principals are what our country was built on, not religious ones. And yes, freedom of thought and speech is better than support of religion.


Now, why does it seem like America hates Christians? Well, it's because the Christians are the most powerful political force right now. We just want to prevent extremism from taking over. And it's very easy for moves like adding the idea of a god/gods to the pledge to morph into extremism. Small steps over time will do it. Add god, and it becomes OK to justify laws in the name of a god. After that, it becomes OK to persecute those who are against those religious beliefs.

We can already see what extremism did to some countries. Contrary to popular belief, that's NOT how everybody wants to live in those countries. If the Christian Right prevails, the US can become Saudi Arabia or Iran. Look into the past to see how awful religious leadership (especially Christianity) can do to innocent people.
That was a good read.

I always thought you were a christian?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Da Hui Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 August 2007 at 4:42pm
Originally posted by Man Bites Dog Man Bites Dog wrote:

Originally posted by Hades Hades wrote:

I can only wonder the response if this pledge were to be changed to "one State over Satan."




Or Buddha, or Vishnu, or FSM, or Cthulhu,





Cthulhu dawn

Spatter the stars
Douse their luminosity
With our amniotic retch
Promulgating the birth
Of another Hell on Earth
Shadows gather poisoned henna for the flesh
A necrotic cattle brand
The hissing downfall pentagram
Carven deep upon the church doors of the damned
But no Passover is planned
A great renewal growls at hand
And only when they're running
Will they come to understand...

So ends the pitiful reign of Man

When the moon exhales
Behind a veil
Of widowhood and clouds
On a Biblical scale
We raise the stakes
To silhouette the impaled
Crowds...

Within this kissed disembowel arena
A broken seal on an ancient curse
Unleashes beasts from the seismic breach
With lightning reach and genocidal thirst
Mountains of archaos theories
In collision as at planetary dawn
Apocalypse's razorbacks
Beat wings on glass as thunder cracks
Unfurled across a world hurled to the black

Cthulhu dawn

Shatter the glass house
Wherein spirits breathe out
Halitosis of the soul
From a recking abscess
Plague of far righteousness
All fates hang in the balance
Mocking crucified dolls
An inquisition outs
When the Sun goes out our powers
Will extend throughout Heaven like Asphodel
As they have for countless lustrum
In dark Midian accustoned
To burning effigies of our enemies well

So begins the sibilant world Death knell...

When a corpse wind howls
And awakes from drowse
The scheming dead freed
Of gossamer shrouds
We gorgonise eyes
Of the storm aroused
Red...

Blinding time
All lines dine on this instance
A melting spool of beggar, negative frames
The skies teem alive, to watch die
Mankind hauled to fable in vast tenement graves...

Cthulhu dawn

Cthulhu dawn

Cthulhu dawn
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tolgak Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 August 2007 at 4:43pm
I was a Muslim that eventually gave up all superstitious belief in my junior and senior years of high school.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldsoldier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 August 2007 at 4:51pm
We really do need reservation states, Yes Texas should be for the right wing, but we also need to reserve California, Florida, and New York for or more diverse left leaning crowd. We must believe in the Global Warming Gods, and purchase Carbon Credits as a belief in saving the world, but actually believing in a God to save you personal soul should be reserved for us in fly-over country as the revisionist new left non believers inhabit our coasts. Yes the ACLU needs to protect the religion of non-religion, and condemn organized religion in any form, because we cannot place any religion in a protected class (except in NY with the current Koran "Hate Crime"). And it must be hard to have no structured belief system other than self over others.
And for the life of me I can not find the words "Seperation of Church and State" anywhere in the US Constitution. And the Supreme Court has made some interesting interpretations of Law throughout our Nations History, I beleive at one time they ruled to find slavery and segregation as legal too, only to see the light later on.

Edited by oldsoldier - 02 August 2007 at 5:04pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote travis75 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 August 2007 at 4:53pm
Originally posted by Tolgak Tolgak wrote:

I was a Muslim that eventually gave up all superstitious belief in my junior and senior years of high school.
Ah, well welcome to our side.  I hope you like it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brihard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 August 2007 at 5:08pm
Originally posted by oldsoldier oldsoldier wrote:

We really do need reservation states, Yes Texas should be for the right wing, but we also need to reserve California, Florida, and New York for or more diverse left leaning crowd. We must believe in the Global Warming Gods, and purchase Carbon Credits as a belief in saving the world, but actually believing in a God to save you personal soul should be reserved for us in fly-over country as the revisionist new left non believers inhabit our coasts. Yes the ACLU needs to protect the religion of non-religion, and condemn organized religion in any form, because we cannot place any religion in a protected class (except in NY with the current Koran "Hate Crime"). And it must be hard to have no structured belief system other than self over others.
And for the life of me I can not find the words "Seperation of Church and State" anywhere in the US Constitution. And the Supreme Court has made some interesting interpretations of Law throughout our Nations History, I beleive at one time they ruled to find slavery and segregation as legal too, only to see the light later on.


Not believing in God does not equate to 'having no beleif system except self over others'- if it did I wouldn't be in the army, going to Afghanistan, or hoping to be a cop. Quit with the reactionary garbage- it's entirely possible to be agnostic or atheist and care about the wellbeing of others- I consider that part of my personal system of beliefs, which are wide and varied- but simply don't include any deity whatsoever.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldsoldier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 August 2007 at 6:05pm
As a general rule, never really ever saw an atheist in the foxhole under mortar or rocket attack, some really loud mumblings, possibly prayer to some diety

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=buSpGWq9aS4

Edited by oldsoldier - 02 August 2007 at 6:06pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Susan Storm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 August 2007 at 6:18pm

Originally posted by oldsoldier oldsoldier wrote:

As a general rule, never really ever saw an atheist in the foxhole under mortar or rocket attack, some really loud mumblings, possibly prayer to some diety

Allow me to blow your mind:  I know many atheists that pray.  Some even pray regularly.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldsoldier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 August 2007 at 6:20pm
But to what, if they do not believe in any diety?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote usafpilot07 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 August 2007 at 6:20pm
Originally posted by Susan Storm Susan Storm wrote:

Originally posted by oldsoldier oldsoldier wrote:

As a general rule, never really ever saw an atheist in the foxhole under mortar or rocket attack, some really loud mumblings, possibly prayer to some diety

Allow me to blow your mind:  I know many atheists that pray.  Some even pray regularly.



Who do these atheists pray to? 

An atheist, by definition, is a person who does not believe in a higher or supreme being.  If this is the case, wouldn't it just be wishing, not praying? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Susan Storm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 August 2007 at 6:22pm

Originally posted by oldsoldier oldsoldier wrote:

But to what, if they do not believe in any diety?

Perhaps to nothing in particular?  Perhaps to an irrational superstition they allow themselves?  Perhaps to their inner self?  Perhaps to a mental ideal?  Perhaps to an intentional manifestation of their hopes and dreams? 

Hard to answer as a general statement.  Human spirituality and belief is not as simple as Believe/Not-Believe.

 

EDIT - USAF:  you might call it wishing, but that would not (always) be correct.  Prayers serve many functions, and not all of those functions require an actual god.



Edited by Susan Storm - 02 August 2007 at 6:24pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldsoldier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 August 2007 at 6:26pm
But I did hear a lot of Jesus...God...and other references coming from a few positions occupied by self proclaimed "atheists" in my time. Mortars, rockets, bullets usually do not seperate believers from non-believers.

An would not an irrational superstition constitute a form of religion by definition?

Bored sitting in Lodi CA..............

Edited by oldsoldier - 02 August 2007 at 6:27pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tolgak Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 August 2007 at 6:28pm
Originally posted by usafpilot07 usafpilot07 wrote:

Originally posted by Susan Storm Susan Storm wrote:

Originally posted by oldsoldier oldsoldier wrote:

As a general rule, never really ever saw an atheist in the foxhole under mortar or rocket attack, some really loud mumblings, possibly prayer to some diety

Allow me to blow your mind:  I know many atheists that pray.  Some even pray regularly.



Who do these atheists pray to? 

An atheist, by definition, is a person who does not believe in a higher or supreme being.  If this is the case, wouldn't it just be wishing, not praying? 


There are spiritual atheists out there too. They could have been praying to themselves for the motivation to do better.

Let's not forget. An atheist isn't a libertarian, religion hating, non-superstitious person. He's just a person that doesn't believe in any deities. That doesn't mean he can't pray to his ancestors or something (though I find that equally as foolish).
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