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The "S" word

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Evil Elvis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 July 2007 at 7:31pm
Originally posted by *Stealth* *Stealth* wrote:

The blues crew hands some ass.God, those guys are frightening.I've literally watched a wave of 200 people run because of 8 blues crew.


I cant count how many times We Hosed Blues Crues at USANA in New Jersey Nam. It's not like they go more than 30 feet into the Tree Line. Wasnt hard to envelop them specially since they seem to Mob on Open Areas and Long Ball at stale mated battles.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote __sneaky__ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 July 2007 at 8:45pm
Originally posted by A-5R/T A-5R/T wrote:

Well guys it has been fun debating the "S Word" with you for the past couple of days but i'am content to let this subject die. 

I realize that an individual can not go out onto the field and expect to play one way the entire time if that individual wants his/her team to win, and that includes "snipers".

I started this topic because in the first 10mins of being on this forum it was evident that people really felt strongly about it.  So i just wanted to try to see why and get some in debth reasoning behind it.  Thankyou for all of your opinions on this, it has been fun 

P.S. you will never see the "S word" coming from me on this forum again

to quote another member of this forum "You hav'nt figured out how this forum works have you?"

trust me, with the people here, just because you raise your little white surrender flag, they're just gunna keep beaten the crap out of the dead horse we call "Your side"

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ben Dover1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 July 2007 at 9:01pm

i want an ice cream sunday

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 July 2007 at 11:28am
Originally posted by Evil Elvis Evil Elvis wrote:

. . . I learned to shoot with Real Weapons so anything without a stock just feels goofy and over years of Military Training my body had learned the "language".


Ditto.  Do you have the same issues with sights.  I ask because while I can shoot without them, it just feels wrong.  (It's not the way I did it for 23+ years.)

Originally posted by __sneaky__ __sneaky__ wrote:

. . . trust me . . . they're just gunna keep beaten the crap out of the dead horse we call "Your side"


I'm not.


Edited by Mack - 30 July 2007 at 11:29am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote scotchyscotch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 July 2007 at 1:05pm
I'm still waiting for pie. No one else post until i get my pie.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 July 2007 at 6:14pm
Originally posted by scotchyscotch scotchyscotch wrote:

I'm still waiting for pie. No one else post until i get my pie.


NO PIE FOR YOU! 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brihard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 July 2007 at 8:34pm
Originally posted by Mack Mack wrote:

[QUOTE=Evil Elvis]. . . I learned to shoot with Real Weapons so anything without a stock just feels goofy and over years of Military Training my body had learned the "language".


Ditto.  Do you have the same issues with sights.  I ask because while I can shoot without them, it just feels wrong.  (It's not the way I did it for 23+ years.)

Another ditto here.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KillerBD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 July 2007 at 10:11pm

Sorry for staying on topic. But my personal opinion and 2 cents. Please don't burn me at the stake for having a differing opinion. I know how much the regulars on this forum hate that

I kinda agree that there can be snipers in paintball (though not in the sense of engagueing targets at distances of 800m). Sniping doesn't always occur at long distances, keep that in mind. Also recon has alot to do with sniping. So if a paintball player strays from the crowd and observes the oponents and helps other players manuver and attack them, then he is performing the duties of a sniper.

 

Dictionary term of the word sniper:

snip∑er       (snÓ'pər)  Pronunciation Key 
n.  

  1. A skilled military shooter detailed to spot and pick off enemy soldiers from a concealed place.
  2. One who shoots at other people from a concealed place.

^No mention of engaguing targets at great distances surpassing 500m or even 25m with accuracy at 1MOA.

 

Though I do understand why alot of you don't think snipers have a place in paintball (speedball). But in the sense that paintball is kinda developed to imitate actualy military combat (woodsball), the word sniper, rifleman, marksman, etc. can be used to describe a specific position played by a paintball player; especially in a woodsball or scenario match.

 

Sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry ............

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Evil Elvis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 July 2007 at 10:14pm
LOL the Dictionary definition, the Forum Sniper Last stand defence.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brihard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 July 2007 at 10:18pm
Originally posted by KillerBD KillerBD wrote:

Sorry for staying on topic. But my personal opinion and 2 cents. Please don't burn me at the stake for having a differing opinion. I know how much the regulars on this forum hate that

I kinda agree that there can be snipers in paintball (though not in the sense of engagueing targets at distances of 800m). Sniping doesn't always occur at long distances, keep that in mind. Also recon has alot to do with sniping. So if a paintball player strays from the crowd and observes the oponents and helps other players manuver and attack them, then he is performing the duties of a sniper.

 

Dictionary term of the word sniper:

snip∑er       (snÓ'pər)  Pronunciation Key 
n.  

  1. A skilled military shooter detailed to spot and pick off enemy soldiers from a concealed place.
  2. One who shoots at other people from a concealed place.

^No mention of engaguing targets at great distances surpassing 500m or even 25m with accuracy at 1MOA.

 

Though I do understand why alot of you don't think snipers have a place in paintball (speedball). But in the sense that paintball is kinda developed to imitate actualy military combat (woodsball), the word sniper, rifleman, marksman, etc. can be used to describe a specific position played by a paintball player; especially in a woodsball or scenario match.

 

Sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry ............



Funny you should mention that... The vast majority of infantry emplyed in reconaissance roles/units aren't snipers.

Just because snipers conduct reconaissance, doesn't mean conducting reconaissance makes you a sniper.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KillerBD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 July 2007 at 10:19pm

Originally posted by Evil Elvis Evil Elvis wrote:

LOL the Dictionary definition, the Forum Sniper Last stand defence.

Yea the dictionary can be very helpful in some situations. So going by the definiton alone, you CAN SNIPE IN PAINTBALL. Check and mate!

Fyi no I don't consider my self a "paintball sniper" infact I don't really consider myself anything other than a paintballer. I just hate it when people are closed minded, ignorance is bliss.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KillerBD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 July 2007 at 10:24pm

Originally posted by brihard brihard wrote:



Funny you should mention that... The vast majority of infantry emplyed in reconaissance roles/units aren't snipers.

Just because snipers conduct reconaissance, doesn't mean conducting reconaissance makes you a sniper.

No ****... Never said that being a scout makes you a sniper. I just said snipers often times do a lot of recon work; ever herd the phrase: "snipers are the eyes and ears of the company" (or something like that, not quoted directly). Also I know a guy currently serving in the 10th Mountain Div. who is a cavilry scout, so I know the diffence between a sniper and a scout. Scouts usually take point in the squad during an operation, snipers usually work in two man teams without the luxury of immediate assistance of other friendly forces.

Sorry for rant.

 

EDIT, fixed my naughty language for the yunger bunnies



Edited by KillerBD - 30 July 2007 at 11:06pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ben Dover1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 July 2007 at 10:44pm
seriously, some pie will do nice right now
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brihard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 July 2007 at 10:57pm
Originally posted by KillerBD KillerBD wrote:

Originally posted by brihard brihard wrote:



Funny you should mention that... The vast majority of infantry emplyed in reconaissance roles/units aren't snipers.

Just because snipers conduct reconaissance, doesn't mean conducting reconaissance makes you a sniper.

No <poopy>... Never said that being a scout makes you a sniper. I just said snipers often times do a lot of recon work; ever herd the phrase: "snipers are the eyes and ears of the company" (or something like that, not quoted directly). Also I know a guy currently serving in the 10th Mountain Div. who is a cavilry scout, so I know the diffence between a sniper and a scout. Scouts usually take point in the squad during an operation, snipers usually work in two man teams without the luxury of immediate assistance of other friendly forces.

Sorry for rant.



Nice filter dodge... I'd edit that before one of the mods comes back and hands you a strike.

Since this thread is going more and more off topic I won't bother beyond mentioning that.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mod98commando Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 July 2007 at 11:38pm
Originally posted by Evil Elvis Evil Elvis wrote:

Originally posted by *Stealth* *Stealth* wrote:

The blues crew hands some ass.God, those guys are frightening.I've literally watched a wave of 200 people run because of 8 blues crew.


I cant count how many times We Hosed Blues Crues at USANA in New Jersey Nam. It's not like they go more than 30 feet into the Tree Line. Wasnt hard to envelop them specially since they seem to Mob on Open Areas and Long Ball at stale mated battles.


I have absolutely no fear of that team. I'm not saying they aren't good players or that I'm better than them but I've played at games they've attended many times in the past and they didn't seem like anything special to me. I have to agree with EE too. Seems like they belong more on a speedball field than out in the woods based on the way they play. A lot of scenario teams are like this though. They come with like 30 guys wearing speedball jersey's and shooting mostly high-end electronic guns but mainly just make use of brute force to get things done. Any organized group with a sense of strategy and some skill can take them out easily. There are some scenario teams out there though that are well organized and you can tell that they know how to take advantage of a woodsball field. At ION this year I was surprised to see a couple teams like this and was glad to join up with them, we got stuff done the right way and it was fun rolling over the enemy like we did .
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 July 2007 at 2:47am
Originally posted by KillerBD KillerBD wrote:

Sorry for staying on topic. But my personal opinion and 2 cents. Please don't burn me at the stake for having a differing opinion.

Where did I put the gasoline? 

I know how much the regulars on this forum hate that

I kinda agree that there can be snipers in paintball (though not in the sense of engagueing targets at distances of 800m). Sniping doesn't always occur at long distances, keep that in mind. Also recon has alot to do with sniping. So if a paintball player strays from the crowd and observes the oponents and helps other players manuver and attack them, then he is performing the duties of a sniper.

 

Dictionary term of the word sniper:

snip∑er       (snÓ'pər)  Pronunciation Key 
n. 

Now running Logic-Check on definition . . .

  1. A skilled (error 1-many paintball snipers are unskilled noobs hiding in the bushes) military shooter (error 2-while paintball players are shooters and may be military, they are not, in the context of the game, military shooters) detailed (error 3-many paintball snipers are not detailed to do anything by anyone other than themselves) to spot and pick off enemy (error 4-while we may have opponents in paintball, we do not have enemies; after all the purpose of the game is to have fun, not engender hatred) soldiers (error 4-while it is possible that the opponent one shoots at may actually be a soldier, this is most commonly not the case) from a concealed place.
  2. One who shoots at other people from a concealed place.

^No mention of engaguing targets at great distances surpassing 500m or even 25m with accuracy at 1MOA.

 

Though I do understand why alot of you don't think snipers have a place in paintball (speedball). But in the sense that paintball is kinda developed to imitate actualy military combat (woodsball), the word sniper, rifleman, marksman, etc. can be used to describe a specific position played by a paintball player; especially in a woodsball or scenario match.

I will agree that some of these terms to describe military positions probably can be used in woodsball; but not all.

  • Consider the SPEC-OPS position of commander:
    • If someone is in overall charge of a team, then commander is a good a term as any.  (Squad Leader, Boss, Captain, HMFIC, all work quite well also.)
    • If that individual is in charge of determining overall strategy for an organized team, I have no problem with the term "Commander" being applied to that.
    • If it is a group of walk-ons and some 14 year old who has spent the last year lying about his stats on his brigade page declares himself in charge, he's probably not going to be well received.
  • Consider the SPEC-OPS position of "Hammer."  The name bugs me; heavy gunner, which is how the position is described, works just as well.
    • A heavy gunner equipped with a twin-A5 set up is truly a heavy gunner.  He possesses, due to his selected equipment (and available finances) the capability to deliver a longer, heavier volume of sustained fire than most other players on the field.
    • It is that capability that justifies the heavy gunner, or "Hammer" title.
  • Now let's consider the Sniper as described by SPEC-OPS:
    • The sniper shoots from concealment (as noted in the definition above as well). 
      • This does not set him apart from other players or give him a capability they do not have.
      • Every woodsball player with minimal experience and half a brain utilizes as much cover and concealment as possible when they play.
    • Snipers are used as scouts.
      • Again, what prevents other players from being used as scouts?  The answer would be nothing.
      • One might suggest that the ghillie would provide an advantage while scouting out the opponents positions, but this would be a fallicy.
        • The ghillie would be an advantage as long as it is properly utilized.  This limits the user to minimal/slow/no movement.
        • This limiting of movement is not necessarily a problem in the real world where a scout might observe an opponents forces/position for days at a time, but in the fluid and time compressed environment of most paintball games/scenarios, it becomes one.
        • The sad fact is the advantages of the ghillie are usually negated by the need to move and the disadvantages (such as snagging/noise) are magnified by this.  In paintball, it is easier to scout the opposition wearing basic camo than it is while wearing a ghillie.
          • For those who argue that they know where to wait, I would ask how many of them think real snipers face opponents that are limited by boundary ropes and specified field entry points.
      • I can hear it now, "But SPEC-OPS identifies specific types of snipers that apply to paintball!  They have the Ghost Flanker, Ambush Sniper and Longbow Sniper."
        • This is true, but if they have to identify special positions that change the basic concept of sniping, shouldn't that be a small sign that maybe there is something questionable about the original supposition?
      • Lets consider each sniping position:
        • The Ghost Flanker, according to their information page, should sneak unseen to the flanks of the enemy to get better shooting angles.
          • Any player who has played long enough to receive a few shots from "nowhere" understands this concept.  If reading this tactic on a web page provided them with the equivalent of a religious experience, they need to get significantly more playing time under their belt.
          • SPEC-OPS makes it sound like no one else would crawl to get into position.  Snake players do it all the time in speedball and almost anyone in woodsball who is taking fire will try to get low and scoot away. 
          • Additionally, any flanking element will try to maintain the element of surprise by avoiding observation so this does not really make the Ghost Flanker all that different from most other players.
        • The "Ambush Sniper" is explained as the guy that waits in ambush where the opposition is going to come through or the person who guards the flank of the assault force on the "weak side of the field."
          • A main tenant of the instructions provided for "Ambush Snipers" is to get a boundary to their side or back to increase the security of their position.  I wonder how many real snipers have the luxury of such artificial protection?
          • Waiting where the other team might come is called camping.  It only helps one's team if the other team is obliging enough to go where they are expected.
            • On larger fields, what usually happens is that the sniper gets left out of the action and his team is short a body from the start.
            • While this may work on smaller fields, it doesn't really take skill to stake out an area when you know that the other team has to come through it.  This is called an ambush and is actually more effective with multiple individuals with high rate of fire markers.
          • Guarding the flank of an assault force is not sniping, it is called flank security and is a basic tenant of offensive operations.  It is also not normally performed by snipers.
        • The description for the "Longbow Sniper" (LBS) just cracks me up.  It admits that it is "harder to hide" in this position and that "concealment isn't as great a priority."  It goes on to explain that the LBS uses more paint and engages at a greater range from high ground.
          • This is called fire support, and is a job that could be better performed by a "Hammer" or someone with a Flatline/Apex barrel and a buttload of paint.  After all, when you're practicing accuracy by volume, more ammo is better.  Which makes it funny that this position is identified with a marker that has a max ammo capacity of 20 rounds.
  • There just isn't anything that really sets the sniper position apart from your basic paintballers, except that if someone made it a point to play in a manner that was point-by-point compliant with a lot of the sniper drivel that is passed off as information, they would be less useful to their team.
  • The closest that I have ever seen anyone get to sniping in paintball is when someone with an Apex or Flatline takes advantage of the ballistic characteristics of their barrel to fire on opponents that are unable to successfully return fire because overhanging/intervening flora interferes with the arced fire from their normal barrels.
    • But, this isn't sniping either; it's just taking advantage of the ballistic characteristics of one's armament.
    • If two individuals fire at each other from within cinderblock buildings, the one with the 9mm is hosed, while the one with the .50 cal probably isn't.  The better armed individual is not a sniper, he's just better armed.
  • I look forward to the day when paintball technology evolves to the point where there are working paintball sniper rifles that are effective within the existing safety parameters of the sport.  Unfortunately, that day isn't here yet.
  • There's some good shots, and some darn sneaky players out there, but there are no snipers.


 

Sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry ............

You should be. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DeTrevni Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 July 2007 at 2:52am

You write entirely too much...

But I must say, I'm impressed.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 July 2007 at 2:58am
Originally posted by DeTrevni DeTrevni wrote:

You write entirely too much...

But I must say, I'm impressed.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SSOK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 July 2007 at 1:13pm
Does anyone ever get Mack and merc confused? I do when im reading who posted the thread and who posted last, but get it sorted out when I click on the thread.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 July 2007 at 1:50pm
Originally posted by SSOK SSOK wrote:

Does anyone ever get Mack and merc confused? I do when im reading who posted the thread and who posted last, but get it sorted out when I click on the thread.


If the confusion results in everyone assuming that merc is the one without a life, that's okay.  If it results in people not understanding that I am the much cooler one of the two, then it is not.



 . . . which one was I again?

Oh, there's the Evilkat sig, I must be Mack.
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