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This is why Creationists bother me.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bravecoward Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 July 2007 at 11:38pm
Originally posted by __sneaky__ __sneaky__ wrote:

Originally posted by jerseypaint jerseypaint wrote:

Originally posted by __sneaky__ __sneaky__ wrote:

See thats the thing, if the bible is in fact that word of god as I've always been told, then why is it that I'm only sposed to take bits and peices of it litterally? Why am I sposed to accept some things, and reject others... it just doesnt make sense in my mind...

I really only take the Commandments as God's Word in the OT. Everything else are lessons and laws of the ol' days.
Which yet again in my difficultly stubborn little brain just tells me, most of this is'nt actually the word of god, so why should I believe any of it to be true?


It just tells you what to live your life by, through stories, myths and parables.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote __sneaky__ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 July 2007 at 11:40pm
Originally posted by bravecoward bravecoward wrote:

Originally posted by __sneaky__ __sneaky__ wrote:

Originally posted by jerseypaint jerseypaint wrote:

Originally posted by __sneaky__ __sneaky__ wrote:

See thats the thing, if the bible is in fact that word of god as I've always been told, then why is it that I'm only sposed to take bits and peices of it litterally? Why am I sposed to accept some things, and reject others... it just doesnt make sense in my mind...

I really only take the Commandments as God's Word in the OT. Everything else are lessons and laws of the ol' days.
Which yet again in my difficultly stubborn little brain just tells me, most of this is'nt actually the word of god, so why should I believe any of it to be true?


It just tells you what to live your life by, through stories, myths and parables.
I dont really like the idea of some random magical man in the clouds telling me how to live my life, if he felt like putting me here, then thats fine, but if I dont give my own consent to be here, then what gives him the right to tell me how to live my own life?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Susan Storm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 July 2007 at 11:41pm

Originally posted by jerseypaint jerseypaint wrote:

I really only take the Commandments as God's Word in the OT. Everything else are lessons and laws of the ol' days.

Why do those verses get the special treatment?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jerseypaint Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 July 2007 at 11:43pm
Originally posted by __sneaky__ __sneaky__ wrote:

Originally posted by jerseypaint jerseypaint wrote:

Originally posted by __sneaky__ __sneaky__ wrote:

See thats the thing, if the bible is in fact that word of god as I've always been told, then why is it that I'm only sposed to take bits and peices of it litterally? Why am I sposed to accept some things, and reject others... it just doesnt make sense in my mind...
I really only take the Commandments as God's Word in the OT. Everything else are lessons and laws of the ol' days.
Which yet again in my difficultly stubborn little brain just tells me, most of this is'nt actually the word of god, so why should I believe any of it to be true?

No one said you had to believe in the OT to be Christian. Just need to live by the core values of the Bible and believe in God as the only god and as all knowing/powerful. And Jesus, thats really important.

Originally posted by Susan Storm Susan Storm wrote:

Originally posted by jerseypaint jerseypaint wrote:

I really only take the Commandments as God's Word in the OT. Everything else are lessons and laws of the ol' days.


Why do those verses get the special treatment?


Because they mean more to me than the others. Its what I take from it, I'm not forcing anyone else to believe it. You can pick and choose what you want for all I care, or believe in none/all of it.

Edited by jerseypaint - 15 July 2007 at 11:46pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Susan Storm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 July 2007 at 11:47pm

Originally posted by jerseypaint jerseypaint wrote:


Because they mean more to me than the others. Its what I take from it, I'm not forcing anyone else to believe it. You can pick and choose what you want for all I care, or believe in none/all of it.

Fair enough.

And I am not picking on you, but I think your belief is fairly common, which is why I am curious.  How do you justify it to yourself?  How do you reconcile the selective application?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jerseypaint Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 July 2007 at 11:52pm
Originally posted by Susan Storm Susan Storm wrote:

And I am not picking on you, but I think your belief is fairly common, which is why I am curious. How do you justify it to yourself? How do you reconcile the selective application?


Its all faith. I know I truly believe that the commandments came from God and I'm happy with that. I do believe the parables and stories are great for building moral fibers, but I also believe that God didn't hand write them so I don't feel in the wrong in dismissing them as God's true Word.

Edited by jerseypaint - 15 July 2007 at 11:53pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote __sneaky__ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 July 2007 at 11:53pm

Originally posted by jerseypaint jerseypaint wrote:

Originally posted by __sneaky__ __sneaky__ wrote:

Originally posted by jerseypaint jerseypaint wrote:

[QUOTE=__sneaky__] See thats the thing, if the bible is in fact that word of god as I've always been told, then why is it that I'm only sposed to take bits and peices of it litterally? Why am I sposed to accept some things, and reject others... it just doesnt make sense in my mind...
I really only take the Commandments as God's Word in the OT. Everything else are lessons and laws of the ol' days.
Which yet again in my difficultly stubborn little brain just tells me, most of this is'nt actually the word of god, so why should I believe any of it to be true?

No one said you had to believe in the OT to be Christian. Just need to live by the core values of the Bible and believe in God as the only god and as all knowing/powerful. And Jesus, thats really important.

[QUOTE=Susan Storm]

well I'm not much of a god/jesus believer... but jesus is a fun name to say... its just entertaining for some odd reason

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jerseypaint Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 July 2007 at 11:57pm
Originally posted by __sneaky__ __sneaky__ wrote:

well I'm not much of a god/jesus believer]


Then why do you want to be a Bible believer? If you don't believe in Jesus/God, then trying to understand the Bible and why people believe is going to be rather difficult.

Edited by jerseypaint - 15 July 2007 at 11:58pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bravecoward Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 July 2007 at 12:02am
curiosity has gotten the better of me.

Do you not believe that Jesus ever existed or that he didn't do the miracles?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tolgak Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 July 2007 at 12:05am
Originally posted by Susan Storm Susan Storm wrote:

Originally posted by Tolgak Tolgak wrote:

We speak about the Big Bang as if matter has always been here. To say that matter is "out of the realm of time" takes as much faith to believe as it does for a faith in any sort of gods.

The entire existence of this universe (or any other universes) is a complete paradox. Matter cannot be created or destroyed, so it should not be here right now.

None of this proves an existence of any deities. It only shows that this is really a pointless debate. Both sides, at least when going as far back as possible to the idea of the creations of a god/gods or matter, take too much faith to be acceptable as truth.

No.

Yes.

First, there are not "both sides".  Framing the conversation that way forces you into the "both are the same" situation that you describe.  There are endless possible theories about the origins of the universe.

I acknowledge that."Both sides" referred to the Religious Camp vs. the Big Bang guys that dominate these debates. It's just that in pretty much all cases, debaters hold the belief that their earliest claimed entity, be it a god or matter or something else, either "just happened" or are "outside the realm of time."

There's a tribe somewhere in Africa that believes the universe was puked into existence. Like you said, people hold many other beliefs. When was the last time you saw this argument taking place with people who don't believe in either of the two major conflicting groups' views?

You're going to try to nail me on saying groups, but I'd rather say that than "people with similar main views but possibly conflicting opinions on the details of the theories."

Moreover, you are ascribing too much to the Big Bang theory.  This is a common error, much like many people ascribe too much to evolutionary theory.

The thing about science is that it only explains what it explains - and its failure to explain some other thing is irrelevant.

I was trying to go back to the beliefs that most people hold about theories that they believe in. Many atheists ask in religious debates "Who created god?", when many of them believe in the same ideas in regards to matter.

I understand that science is unlike religion in that it only declares truth using evidence. But not all atheists believe in science, and many of them hold beliefs on faith even as they argue against theists for doing the same things.

Evolution, for instance, explains the origins of SPECIES and the diversity of life.  Evolutionary theory makes NO CLAIM about the origins of life.  Evolutionary theory "begins" after the first life.  And this in no way weakens (or strengthens) the theory, any more than its failure to address, say, kitchen knives.  It is not related.

I agree with what you're saying, but I did not mention, nor was I trying to imply evolution anywhere.

Similarly, the Big Bang theory describes/explains, well, the Big Bang.  The theory makes no statement about what came "before" the bang, or about the origins of matter, or anything else.  "Yeah, but where did the matter come from" is not a valid criticism of Big Bang theory - you might as well say "Yeah, but what about cake".

Again, I'm targeting the people, not the theory. I'm trying to expose that many people arguing against faith still have it without knowing or wanting to admit it.

Religious opponents of certain scientific theorys - Big Bang and evolution among them - attempt to attack these theories by recharacterizing them as directly opposed to the Bible (or whatever), thereby allowing them to criticize the science by noting that it fails to address "X".  This is clever, but incorrect.

I'm not targeting the theories.

(small disclaimer - Big Bang theory kind of claims that there is no "before" - but not in a way that is relevant to this particular discussion)

I'm addressing points that people in this discussion are using or are contemplating using involving Creationism. It is more about the arguments in the discussion than the discussion itself. Not as relevant as the main argument but still important.

Quote ... atheists such as myself have a possibility of being wrong.

Of course.  An atheist that claims total certainty would be just as irrational as a theist, or perhaps even more so.  Rational atheism requires a fundamentally scientific/empirical worldview, and science requires perpetual doubt and complete openmindedness.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote __sneaky__ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 July 2007 at 12:08am
Originally posted by jerseypaint jerseypaint wrote:

Originally posted by __sneaky__ __sneaky__ wrote:

well I'm not much of a god/jesus believer]


Then why do you want to be a Bible believer? If you don't believe in Jesus/God, then trying to understand the Bible and why people believe is going to be rather difficult.
I dont want to be a believer... I grew up a bible believer, I didnt stop believing till early 8th grade... I used to believe in both of them, but that was then...

and to that last question, I'm not really sure, there could have been a man named jesus, but that doesnt mean he was the son of god... there where lots of people claiming to be the "massiah" back in those days, hell we still got a few of em...

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Susan Storm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 July 2007 at 12:16am

I know you aren't arguing against any scientific theory, Tolga.  But you are still assuming the "one or the other" view.

It isn't religious types vs. big bang types - because those two views only partially address the same things, and the big bang in particular does not address the "beginning" in the same way that religion does.

"Who created god" is, for most religions, a valid critical question, because most religions specifically attempt to explain everything, and in particular the origins of everything.

"What became before the bag", on the other hand, is not a valid critical question as to big bang theory, because that is (mostly) outside the realm of the theory.  Yet that very question is consistently raised to "prove" big bang theory wrong, and this requires a misapplication of big bang theory.

Are there tools out there that think that big bang theory "disproves" religious beliefs?  Sure.  Are there people out there whose atheist conclusions from scientific theories far exceed the scope of those theories?  And does that amount to a "faith" of sorts?  Sure.  And those people need to read up on science just as much as your hardcore creationists.

BUT - I feel it is incorrect to state that this is a common situation.  In my experience, when you probe a guy who declares a disbelief in god "based on" science, he will usually admit to the possibility of being wrong, and stop well short of an irrational "faith" in science.

Of course, I could be wrong.

:)

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SandMan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 July 2007 at 12:34pm
This is why Creationists bother me.

Seems to me this is why that Creationist bothers you. It's an important distinction.

Labels and sweeping generalizations are two of the worst enemies of critical thought.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote choopie911 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 July 2007 at 1:37pm
Everytime this forum gets on this topic, it just further proves the studies showing that the more religion goes up, IQ goes down. No joke, look it up.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SandMan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 July 2007 at 2:15pm
It doesn't have to. But I agree that it usually does.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Skillet42565 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 July 2007 at 2:36pm
Each side of the argument has its extremists, and they are the ones who give it a bad name.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Da Hui Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 July 2007 at 2:48pm
Originally posted by SandMan SandMan wrote:

This is why Creationists bother me.

Seems to me this is why that Creationist bothers you. It's an important distinction.

Labels and sweeping generalizations are two of the worst enemies of critical thought.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CarbineKid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 July 2007 at 4:31pm
Originally posted by choopie911 choopie911 wrote:

Everytime this forum gets on this topic, it just further proves the studies showing that the more religion goes up, IQ goes down. No joke, look it up.

I tend to stay away from religious discussions. However I would be interested to see the info on this. Are there any studies that state that people of faith are somehow less intelligent then a non believer?    

Edited by CarbineKid - 16 July 2007 at 4:33pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Susan Storm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 July 2007 at 5:45pm

Originally posted by CarbineKid CarbineKid wrote:

Originally posted by choopie911 choopie911 wrote:

Everytime this forum gets on this topic, it just further proves the studies showing that the more religion goes up, IQ goes down. No joke, look it up.

I tend to stay away from religious discussions. However I would be interested to see the info on this. Are there any studies that state that people of faith are somehow less intelligent then a non believer?    

Wikipedia has an article on the subject:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religiosity_and_intelligence

Beyond intelligence, however, I am pretty sure I have seen a few studies discussing the negative relationship between education and religiosity.  There is a clear such relationship, but there is a counter-theory that it may be a matter of social class relationships rather than simply intelligence.

That, of course, is the problem with correlations - many factors tend to travel in packs, and it is hard to tell which is causing which.  But here is the bottom line:  There appears to be a good amount of data to support the general proposition that people in Group A tend to be more educated, make more money, be more intelligent, and be less religious, than those in Group B.  Of course, these are not clean groups, but the trend appears to be there.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote choopie911 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 July 2007 at 5:56pm
Originally posted by Susan Storm Susan Storm wrote:

Originally posted by CarbineKid CarbineKid wrote:

Originally posted by choopie911 choopie911 wrote:

Everytime this forum gets on this topic, it just further proves the studies showing that the more religion goes up, IQ goes down. No joke, look it up.
I tend to stay away from religious discussions. However I would be interested to see the info on this. Are there any studies that state that people of faith are somehow less intelligent then a non believer?    


Wikipedia has an article on the subject:† http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religiosity_and_intelligence


Beyond intelligence, however, I am pretty sure I have seen a few studies discussing the negative relationship between education and religiosity.† There is a clear such relationship, but there is a counter-theory that it may be a matter of social class relationships rather than simply intelligence.


That, of course, is the problem with correlations - many factors tend to travel in packs, and it is hard to tell which is causing which.† But here is the bottom line:† There appears to be a good amount of data to support the general proposition that people in Group A tend to be more educated, make more money, be more intelligent, and be less religious, than those in Group B.† Of course, these are not clean groups, but the trend appears to be there.



That about sums it up. Of course their are exceptions, and of course their are clear cut examples, so you have to take things with a grain of salt, but the trend is still there.

Its not hard info to find, I did a quick google search and found this:
http://hypnosis.home.netcom.com/iq_vs_religiosity.htm
Scroll down for percentages.
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