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This is why Creationists bother me.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Da Hui Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 July 2007 at 12:48am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DeTrevni Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 July 2007 at 12:56am

Originally posted by travis75 travis75 wrote:

A Creationist trying to disprove the big bang theory

There's the problem right there. No, I'm not being anti-Christian here, I'm just saying that people who try to force their beliefs on others = no go in my book.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blackdog144 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 July 2007 at 1:11am
if anyone thinks im trying to force Christianity on them im sorry because i 100% mean not to. forgive me if i am....



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RoboCop Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 July 2007 at 1:26am
I can't stand when people push their religion on others. Even if they are pushing my religion. People should only get involved in a religion if they freely choose so on their own.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote High Voltage Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 July 2007 at 1:26am

blackdog, please read up on the big bang theory. Nobody has said that because matter exploded, humans spawned on a planet that fell out of the reaction. The big bang theory is a theory attempting to explain the question regarding how the universe came to be. It is not directly related to the formation of life, nor the creation of our planet. That occured from the aftermath.

How anyone could enter a debate on blind faith is beyond my comprehension. Even if you don't believe it(yet..) you could still do yourself, and all of us for that matter, a great favor by researching the topic. Also read up on how stars form. It might help you understand how debris from a large explosion, ie big bang, can come together through a number of ways to form a celestial object like a star or planet.



Edited by High Voltage - 15 July 2007 at 1:33am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DeTrevni Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 July 2007 at 1:34am

I've noticed something on this forum. Now, this happens a LOT. This is what I don't like. People are pressing their opinions are others. Athiests/agnostics are pressing their views on the the Christians here, to the point where they just throw out this one line. This one line used in the same context over and over again: "It's stupid to blindly follow a faith when the facts are right there." They are pressing their opinions or whatever you want to call them on the Christians. If I'm not mistaken, a lot of the athiests here are griping about Christians doing just that. Yes, I know the outspoken Christians are defending their beliefs, and trying to disprove what the outspoken Athiests are saying, etc. etc. It's two sided. I admit this. Problem is people are getting involved with other peoples' lives.

Now, I know there is no way people are going to stop, but I'm just expressing my views on the situation.

TL;DR: Religion = paintball sniper. Shouldn't be discussed, the majority doesn't agree with it, but each party will defend themselves with tooth and nail.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote __sneaky__ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 July 2007 at 3:09am
Originally posted by __sneaky__ __sneaky__ wrote:

Originally posted by Da Hui Da Hui wrote:

Is it true that mortals lived to be 500+ years of age, or so says the bible?
the oldest one was over 900...

if you had long hair, it was a discrace to god. *edit as a male*

corinthians 11:14 Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him? *and sinse our body is gods temple, and we are shaming it, it discraces him...*

if you had you male-organs injured permanently, you where not allowed to go to church.

Leviticus 21:21 No man that hath a blemish of the seed of Aaron the priest shall come nigh to offer the offerings of the LORD made by fire: he hath a blemish; he shall not come nigh to offer the bread of his God.

if you had a dissobediant child, you where to stone them to death.

cant find the exact verse, but I'm worken on it...

if a girl was raped in the city and no one heard her scream, she was to be stoned.

Dueteronamy 22:23 If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her;Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbour's wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you.

if you where born a gentile (not a jew) you couldnt be saved, you where born into salvation...

another one of those, still working on finding a good verse referance... gimme some time.

and thats just a few things from the old testament... it gets way worse.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ANARCHY_SCOUT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 July 2007 at 3:34am
Originally posted by DeTrevni DeTrevni wrote:

I've noticed something on this forum. Now, this happens a LOT. This is what I don't like. People are pressing their opinions are others. Athiests/agnostics are pressing their views on the the Christians here, to the point where they just throw out this one line. This one line used in the same context over and over again: "It's stupid to blindly follow a faith when the facts are right there." They are pressing their opinions or whatever you want to call them on the Christians. If I'm not mistaken, a lot of the athiests here are griping about Christians doing just that. Yes, I know the outspoken Christians are defending their beliefs, and trying to disprove what the outspoken Athiests are saying, etc. etc. It's two sided. I admit this. Problem is people are getting involved with other peoples' lives.

Now, I know there is no way people are going to stop, but I'm just expressing my views on the situation.

TL;DR: Religion = paintball sniper. Shouldn't be discussed, the majority doesn't agree with it, but each party will defend themselves with tooth and nail.

LOL AT YOUR POST COUNTZ!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DeTrevni Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 July 2007 at 3:38am

That's how we do.

Edit: OH NOEZ! Borked it up.



Edited by DeTrevni - 15 July 2007 at 3:39am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ANARCHY_SCOUT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 July 2007 at 3:45am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Darur Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 July 2007 at 3:47am
Originally posted by travis75 travis75 wrote:

Originally posted by Susan Storm Susan Storm wrote:

[...]It didn't happen by chance - we are here BECAUSE it is the perfect place for life as we know it[....]


Susan, allow me to elaborate.  Creationists often have a misconception when throwing "chance" around.   Chance means randomly, often in one 'step'

Evolution did not happen in one single step, by chance. It would be impossible.

However, natural selection is the means, not chance.  There is nothing random and sudden about it.  It is a slow and gradual process.  The classic anecdote about evolution being equivalent to a tornado assembling a 747 in one pass is horribly incorrect, and often used because so.  Natural selection is a gradual, self-regulating, smart system.  Nothing is random, except for the mutations!  I hope I've cleared some of the confusion about that dirty-word "chance"    If you want to learn more, I suggest Dawkins' Climbing Mount Improbable.

 What was said about the Earth being habitable because we exist to see it sums it up.  Reminds me of Stephen Hawking's A Brief History of Time i read a few years back.


The Chance part isn't terribly off.  If we are assuming there is no God and life was created anyway through evolution we have to consider where it began.  Assuming we are all the decedents of a single-celled organism, where did that come from?  Science suggests that the tiny organelles inside of the cell were once individual life forms which began to work together and produced cells.  But where did those come from?

The modern theories for the beginning of life are either A. The earth's chemical soup environment produced by chance amino acids and proteins eventually through accidental reactions, or B. The earliest life forms were complex crystalline structures which would slowly produce reactions.  The chance part comes from the odds of a those events happening.  That has nothing to do with Natural Selection, it is not a "smart system", its a roll of the dice, only these dice have millions and millions of sides.

Now, granted, thats not strictly evolution, but I think thats where many of the complaints against evolution begin.

To clarify my stance, as I've stated numerous times, I believe that Earth was formed through the Big Bang.  I believe life on Earth was created through evolution.  What I don't see is why God couldn't have given the dice a little nudge in favor of life being born.

P.S - Not to nitpick, but the comment about how the Big Bang made up top by Jack Carver is correct in essence, however its only one of two explanations of the future of the Universe.  Depending on the force of the Big Bang, the Universe may continue to accelerate without bounds and expand forever if the Bang was powerful enough.  If it was not it will eventually slow down and begin collapsing back into the Big Crunch.  If the physicists are right, the later might be quote interesting as, unless I am mistaken, time will reverse. :)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bravecoward Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 July 2007 at 4:58am

Originally posted by _sneaky_ _sneaky_ wrote:

if you had long hair, it was a discrace to god. *edit as a male*

corinthians 11:14 Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him? *and sinse our body is gods temple, and we are shaming it, it discraces him...*


Out of context. You can see even in the verse you posted theres a question mark after it. If you read the whole passage it was about how women had to have their hair in a veil while praying. A man does not cover his head because he is the image and glory of God, and women glory of men (yeah i know a bit sexist but this was a different time). In the verse you posted a man was calling out this custom by asking why men didn't have to wear a veil.

Originally posted by _sneaky_ _sneaky_ wrote:

if you had you male-organs injured permanently, you where not allowed to go to church.

Leviticus 21:21 No man that hath a blemish of the seed of Aaron the priest shall come nigh to offer the offerings of the LORD made by fire: he hath a blemish; he shall not come nigh to offer the bread of his God.

The seed of Aaron does not mean mean his male organs. a blemish means a defect like being blind,crippled,lame, or hunchbacked. Again if you read the whole passage it was just for priest, so basically priest couldn't have any handicaps to be a priest.

Originally posted by _sneaky_ _sneaky_ wrote:

if you had a dissobediant child, you where to stone them to death.

cant find the exact verse, but I'm worken on it...

I'll explain it if you find it

Originally posted by _sneaky_ _sneaky_ wrote:

if a girl was raped in the city and no one heard her scream, she was to be stoned.

Dueteronamy 22:23 If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her;Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbour's wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you.

"If within the city a man comes upon a maiden who is betrothed(married), and has relations with her (sounds consensual to me)"

This passage isn't about rape its about adultery. Cheating on your spouse. The old testament is just that. Old. Its laws are a littttle behind our times now. The part about her screaming was their crude law system, if the girl did not scream it wasn't rape to them.


Originally posted by _sneaky_ _sneaky_ wrote:

if you where born a gentile (not a jew) you couldnt be saved, you where born into salvation...

another one of those, still working on finding a good verse referance... gimme some time.

and thats just a few things from the old testament... it gets way worse.

The old testament is ass backwards in todays world because it was written so long ago, stoning back then was okay, same thing with women's rights.

Not everything in the bible can be relevant today. Especially Leviticus.

Read the bible seriously, but don't take it seriously.



Edited by bravecoward - 15 July 2007 at 2:55pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bravecoward Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 July 2007 at 5:41am
Originally posted by blackdog144 blackdog144 wrote:

im not sure if this is on topic but when God created the heavens and the earth i.e. universe and earth it says in Genesis that the earth was emty.

If im understanding what your all saying here, you guys are saying that the big bang or whatever made life happen on earth, or aloud life to exhist?

well it says in genesis 1 that God SAID Let their be light, then He said, Let their be expanse from water...skipping a couple verses God SAID let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to separate the day from the night.

skipping down to verse 20, And God said, "Let the water team with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the expanse of the sky.

verse 24. Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds, livestock, creatures that move alond the ground, wild animals, each acording to its kind. And it was so. God made wild animals according to their kinds etc...

now correct me if im wrong here, but what you guys are saying is that the bang happend and aloud life to exhist on earth? If that is so, then why did God say Let there be...? Making it that God created whatever He created.

bah, im confusing myself! it seems to work better in my head then being seen. sorry if this was off topic...


Heres my open minded view to being catholic, yes we really do exist.

The first creation story(deals with the creation of the world in six days) in Genesis was written by the bible writers as a story explaining how the world was created. To themselves.

MANY facts are been pitted against this story with evidence such as:

  1. Geology and Palentology
  2. Darwin
  3. The Earth is much older than previously thought
  4. Creationism
The problem is that these stories are not God's accounts. They were not whispered into the ears of the writers, nor were they suddenly enlighten by God to write the bible. They are just ancient Israel's Stories to the world's beginning.

The creation narratives are just myths. Before thoughts of Jamie and Adam come in we have to remove ourselves from the modern meaning of a myth as something not factual. In a religious understanding a myth is a metaphorical narrative about the relation between the world and the Sacred(God).

Characteristics of a myth are:
  • Typically speaks of the beginning or the end of the world
  • Uses non literal language
  • Not just one "lesson"
  • Does not narrate fact
The creation narratives are not to be read as literal accounts. The details of a myth point symbolically to spiritual understanding.

So why did the ancient writers tell the story this way? Well you first have to look at the time period of the time was. The first creation story was put into final form during and after the Babylonian exile (587 B.C.E). The exile lasted until 539 B.C.E. Sustaining their identity and rituals was important to them during and after this exile. In this time period when a nation conquered another it was thought that the god or gods of the victorious had defeated the god of the vanquished nation. The six day creation was meant to reinforce the importance of the sabbath day which was predated before the exile. The sabbath day is the 7th day of the week. Which is also the day God rested(eh eh see the connection) this meant that the sabbath day should be a day of rest.

The creation story also shows that
  1. God brings goodness out of nothingness ("let their be...")
  2. Genesis affirms that the world was a good creation
Thats my take on the matter. You can take it, or disregard it, thats cool too. I really don't want it to seem that I'm some bible thumper ramming the word of God down your throat. Just trying my best to answer your question. It is now 5:40 a.m so any mistakes I might have made I'll be sure to fix them tomorrow.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote travis75 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 July 2007 at 9:12am
Originally posted by Darur Darur wrote:

[...]That has nothing to do with Natural Selection, it is not a "smart system", its a roll of the dice, only these dice have millions and millions of sides[....]
Perhaps "smart system" was the incorrect term.  What i was trying to say was that NS dictated that inferior organisms die off.   The system is smart in that all of the species improve and the gene pool is constantly refined.  While the dice do have millions of sides, NS insures that only the best rolls are used.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Snipa69 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 July 2007 at 1:54pm
Anyone ever played the game Telephone when they were a kid? It's the game where you get a large circle of people and start it off by whispering a sentence in to one's ear and have it go arround the circle until it gets back to the first person who said it. When has that ever worked out well?

Sound kinda like how the bible could have ended up? To me it does.

I just got home from church and I am glad that I have another 6 days to recoop before I have to go back. I find it very hard to sit there and listen to something I can't fully believe in for an hour each week. That's just me and my opinion. Before you say anything, just know that I have no choice regarding my attendance at church. I'm catholic

However I've found in my time that there are two things you don't give a guy crap about in life: His choice in music and his views on religion.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote travis75 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 July 2007 at 2:05pm
Originally posted by Snipa69 Snipa69 wrote:

Anyone ever played the game Telephone when they were a kid? It's the game where you get a large circle of people and start it off by whispering a sentence in to one's ear and have it go arround the circle until it gets back to the first person who said it. When has that ever worked out well?

Sound kinda like how the bible could have ended up? To me it does.

I just got home from church and I am glad that I have another 6 days to recoop before I have to go back. I find it very hard to sit there and listen to something I can't fully believe in for an hour each week. That's just me and my opinion. Before you say anything, just know that I have no choice regarding my attendance at church. I'm catholic

However I've found in my time that there are two things you don't give a guy crap about in life: His choice in music and his views on religion.

Tell your parents to get bent.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blackdog144 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 July 2007 at 2:42pm
Originally posted by High Voltage High Voltage wrote:

blackdog, please read up on the big bang theory. Nobody has said that because matter exploded, humans spawned on a planet that fell out of the reaction. The big bang theory is a theory attempting to explain the question regarding how the universe came to be. It is not directly related to the formation of life, nor the creation of our planet. That occured from the aftermath.

How anyone could enter a debate on blind faith is beyond my comprehension. Even if you don't believe it(yet..) you could still do yourself, and all of us for that matter, a great favor by researching the topic. Also read up on how stars form. It might help you understand how debris from a large explosion, ie big bang, can come together through a number of ways to form a celestial object like a star or planet.



im just going off of what ive been taught and what i know on the big bang. Or what i thought i new. Im wrong on the big bang subject. And i am sorry for the problems or whatever ive made in this thread....if i made any...anyway



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bravecoward Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 July 2007 at 2:50pm
did my post answer your question  blackdog?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blackdog144 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 July 2007 at 2:59pm
i respect your opinion bravecoward. But about the creation story being put in to its final form, how do they know it was during the exile? I mean Moses wrote the first 5 books of the OT and the Isrealites hadent even been to the promised land yet.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Darur Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 July 2007 at 4:11pm
Originally posted by travis75 travis75 wrote:

Perhaps "smart system" was the incorrect term.  What i was trying to say was that NS dictated that inferior organisms die off.   The system is smart in that all of the species improve and the gene pool is constantly refined.  While the dice do have millions of sides, NS insures that only the best rolls are used.


No no no, you missed my point there.  I was discussing the very beginning of life, not Natural Selection.  I have no beef with that.  I'm talking about, at the time, inanimate matter which formed the building blocks of the earliest life forms. Although studies have shown that under perfect conditions, the chemical soup that made up our early Earth's surfaces would be capable of producing Amino acids and the most basic elements of life as we know it, the chance of these individual structures reacting with one another so that life could form are astounding.

Thats where the million-sided dice come into play, the odds of life's most basic reactions happening by the chance bumping together of individual particles. After these earliest life forms began, then Natural Selection and thus Evolution kicks in.
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