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This is why Creationists bother me.

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Jack Carver View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jack Carver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 July 2007 at 8:01pm
Originally posted by blackdog144 blackdog144 wrote:

i am a Christian and the idea of two atoms colliding in the vastnass of the universe is impossible. How can that creat a bang capable of creating life?

I think you're greatly mistaken.
Correct me if I'm wrong people, but I believe the theory is that the universe is constantly expanding, reaching its outermost limits, then retracting, kind of like if there was an explosion under-water. When everything retracts enough, all the matter and energy in the universe is crammed into one place, and it all explodes (the big bang), creating a new universe essentially, and spreading matter all over the place. Since this has happened and will happen an infinite amount of times, the matter will rearrange different ways every time, and one of those times matter will form earth. Thats this time, the one we're living in. And then somehow from there spontaneous generation happens, even though that was disproven in the 1600s. Somebody else will have to cover that.


Edited by Jack Carver - 14 July 2007 at 8:04pm
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blackdog144 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blackdog144 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 July 2007 at 8:28pm
ok than explain why the earth is in the galactic habitable zone, and the circumstellar habitable zone.

galactic habitable zone - we live in a spiral galaxy, the only galaxy that can sustaine life. Our earth is in between 2 spirals. If it was anywhere else earth would either be to hot or their would be to much debree.

Circumstellar habitable zone - is the region around our sun where water can exist continually on the surface of a planet for extended periods. Earth is the only planet in our solar system thats in the circumstellar habitable zone. Venis gets up to 900 degrees F. Mars never gets warmer then a cold day in antarctica. Explain why we are in this perfect place for life.

as for me, i dont think it happend by chance.



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Jack Carver View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jack Carver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 July 2007 at 8:35pm
I don't think it happened by chance either, but that's the theory. It could have happened by chance, cause this bang is happening a bazillion times over and over, so one of those times it's gotta get lucky right? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blackdog144 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 July 2007 at 9:14pm
i highly doubt it...



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gatyr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 July 2007 at 9:28pm

Originally posted by blackdog144 blackdog144 wrote:

i highly doubt it...

But the idea of a of an unseen and uncontactable omniscient and omnipotent being in the sky that has absolutely no worthwhile evidence supporting seems more likely somehow?

I don't really know what happened, but it is stupid to not accept something or to block it out because of your blind faith towards something else.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Benjichang Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 July 2007 at 9:34pm
Originally posted by Gatyr Gatyr wrote:

Originally posted by blackdog144 blackdog144 wrote:

i highly doubt it...

But the idea of a of an unseen and uncontactable omniscient and omnipotent being in the sky that has absolutely no worthwhile evidence supporting seems more likely somehow?

I don't really know what happened, but it is stupid to not accept something or to block it out because of your blind faith towards something else.

Ouch.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote High Voltage Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 July 2007 at 9:52pm
Originally posted by Benjichang Benjichang wrote:

Originally posted by Gatyr Gatyr wrote:

Originally posted by blackdog144 blackdog144 wrote:

i highly doubt it...

But the idea of a of an unseen and uncontactable omniscient and omnipotent being in the sky that has absolutely no worthwhile evidence supporting seems more likely somehow?

I don't really know what happened, but it is stupid to not accept something or to block it out because of your blind faith towards something else.

Ouch.

So let's have the creationists prove and explain god, this thread seems way too one-sided..
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Susan Storm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 July 2007 at 9:54pm

Originally posted by blackdog144 blackdog144 wrote:

the idea of two atoms colliding in the vastnass of the universe is impossible. How can that creat a bang capable of creating life?

I'm not sure what you are describing, but it isn't the Big Bang theory.

Of course, atoms collide all the time - but that's another story.

Originally posted by blackdog144 blackdog144 wrote:

Explain why we are in this perfect place for life.

as for me, i dont think it happend by chance.

It didn't happen by chance - we are here BECAUSE it is the perfect place for life as we know it.

Planets exist in (literally) an infinite range of possible conditions - warm, cold, in between, etc. - and it is only logical that life arose on a planet that was "just right".  What would have been weird would be if life had arisen on a planet with no atmosphere, for instance.

But if you are looking for life, wouldn't you start looking on the planets that are capable of supporting life?

Your question is backwards.

"No society can surely be flourishing and happy, of which the far greater part of the members are poor and miserable."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MT. Vigilante Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 July 2007 at 9:57pm
The simple fact is that the big bang theory is not against Christianity at all, its not like evolution, all the big bang theory does is explain how all this matter got spread out throghout the universe. And does nothing to discredit God's existance. I dont find anything in the Bible that says that God didn't create all the matter in the universe, gather it into one place, and then release it all in one huge explosion. God has used seemingly natural events to perform miricles in the past.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jack Carver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 July 2007 at 9:59pm
Well we could bring up visions of Mary, modern day miracles, etc, historical evidence of the Bible, stuff like that. I don't agree that God is unseen, uncontactable, and has no worthwhile evidence supporting his existence. Unfortunately I don't know enough details to really be able to make an argument, and of course it can't ever be proven 100% cause then there wouldn't be such thing as faith.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote High Voltage Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 July 2007 at 10:00pm
Originally posted by MT. Vigilante MT. Vigilante wrote:

The simple fact is that the big bang theory is not against Christianity at all, its not like evolution, all the big bang theory does is explain how all this matter got spread out throghout the universe. And does nothing to discredit God's existance. I dont find anything in the Bible that says that God didn't create all the matter in the universe, gather it into one place, and then release it all in one huge explosion. God has used seemingly natural events to perform miricles in the past.

If it is natural, where's the miracle in it?

That's like saying I accidentally broke my bong the day I said I was going to stop smoking. Did god perform a miracle then to keep me from smoking and ruining a perfectly good job opportunity?

Originally posted by Jack Carver Jack Carver wrote:

Well we could bring up visions of Mary, modern day miracles, etc, historical evidence of the Bible, stuff like that. I don't agree that God is unseen, uncontactable, and has no worthwhile evidence supporting his existence. Unfortunately I don't know enough details to really be able to make an argument, and of course it can't ever be proven 100% cause then there wouldn't be such thing as faith.

See, that's the silly thing about science.. we tend not to accept results based upon faith. Scientific method ftw. Yes, hypotheses are made often, but experiments and research are performed to back them up, and not just accepted because a fictional book said so.


Edited by High Voltage - 14 July 2007 at 10:03pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MT. Vigilante Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 July 2007 at 10:16pm
Jack Carver said it best High Voltage, yes God does and has performed miricles that are so unbelievable that the only explanation is his divine hand. But a great many of his miracles are things that could be explained by natural means, but still have an extremely high degree of immprobability that they are natural. I beleive he does this for one simple reason, faith. He wants us all to come to him by faith.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote High Voltage Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 July 2007 at 10:19pm
Originally posted by MT. Vigilante MT. Vigilante wrote:

Jack Carver said it best High Voltage, yes God does and has performed miricles that are so unbelievable that the only explanation is his divine hand. But a great many of his miracles are things that could be explained by natural means, but still have an extremely high degree of immprobability that they are natural. I beleive he does this for one simple reason, faith. He wants us all to come to him by faith.

Leaving the more intelligent lifeforms to use their superior knowledge and reason to explain how it isn't a miracle that we are here. God likes the stupid ones?

I say that purely in jest, and while I never actually enter a debate with a serious attitude, I accept we have our differences. I'm late for work, out.

Edit- This is coming from a former catholic, well I'm probably still considered one. What's the rule on not going to church since your Confirmation? It's been, let's say, 6 years. I'm sure I'd get like 100 Hail Mary's, 25 Our Father's, and some other stupid crap as penance.


Edited by High Voltage - 14 July 2007 at 10:26pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jack Carver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 July 2007 at 10:22pm
I can see what you're saying. If you don't want to believe in God, you don't have to, you can explain everything with science. Supernatural type things are unable to be repeated with similar results so there is really no scientific credibility to any kind of miracle that happens, no matter how real it is.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blackdog144 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 July 2007 at 10:39pm
im not sure if this is on topic but when God created the heavens and the earth i.e. universe and earth it says in Genesis that the earth was emty.

If im understanding what your all saying here, you guys are saying that the big bang or whatever made life happen on earth, or aloud life to exhist?

well it says in genesis 1 that God SAID Let their be light, then He said, Let their be expanse from water...skipping a couple verses God SAID let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to separate the day from the night.

skipping down to verse 20, And God said, "Let the water team with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the expanse of the sky.

verse 24. Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds, livestock, creatures that move alond the ground, wild animals, each acording to its kind. And it was so. God made wild animals according to their kinds etc...

now correct me if im wrong here, but what you guys are saying is that the bang happend and aloud life to exhist on earth? If that is so, then why did God say Let there be...? Making it that God created whatever He created.

bah, im confusing myself! it seems to work better in my head then being seen. sorry if this was off topic...



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote travis75 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 July 2007 at 10:53pm
Originally posted by MT. Vigilante MT. Vigilante wrote:

[...]yes God does and has performed miricles that are so unbelievable that the only explanation is his divine hand[....]

No.
No.
No.

Just because science doesn't have an answer yet(science always makes progress towards the truth) doesn't mean that your theory is automatically the winner.  
Originally posted by Ted Stevens Ted Stevens wrote:

It's not a big process of elimination, it's a series of truths


A Christian man(doctor, i think) Devoted his life to finding proof of "medical miracles" so as to prove in the existence of God.  Decades later and after examining many different cases, all were found to have non-divine resolutions.  The man became an atheist if i recall correctly.  Link if i can find it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote travis75 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 July 2007 at 11:00pm
Originally posted by MT. Vigilante MT. Vigilante wrote:

[...]God has used seemingly natural events to perform miricles in the past.

Like that Tsunami the all-loving God used to kill hundreds of thousands of pacific islanders?  How did that little miracale help those people out?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote travis75 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 July 2007 at 11:17pm
Originally posted by Susan Storm Susan Storm wrote:

[...]It didn't happen by chance - we are here BECAUSE it is the perfect place for life as we know it[....]


Susan, allow me to elaborate.  Creationists often have a misconception when throwing "chance" around.   Chance means randomly, often in one 'step'

Evolution did not happen in one single step, by chance. It would be impossible.

However, natural selection is the means, not chance.  There is nothing random and sudden about it.  It is a slow and gradual process.  The classic anecdote about evolution being equivalent to a tornado assembling a 747 in one pass is horribly incorrect, and often used because so.  Natural selection is a gradual, self-regulating, smart system.  Nothing is random, except for the mutations!  I hope I've cleared some of the confusion about that dirty-word "chance"    If you want to learn more, I suggest Dawkins' Climbing Mount Improbable.

 What was said about the Earth being habitable because we exist to see it sums it up.  Reminds me of Stephen Hawking's A Brief History of Time i read a few years back.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RoboCop Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 July 2007 at 11:28pm

I am a catholic and see truth in science and my faith. There are some things I believe in science that helped create the world today and believe things that my faith says. God had created life, but he might have done it in a way that we think is too complex just to make humans. People will quote "Let there be..." and it is true he created this and that, just he didn't do it directly. Like God could have created humans through evolution. He said we came from dust and to dust we shall return, or however it goes. Well, we could have come from carbon into creatures that finally evolved into humans. That would make sense that wa came from "dust." The whole 7 days is a figure of speach. It is really an eternity. Like when Jesus says not to forgive once but to forgive 7X7 times. That doesn't mean 49 times to forgive a person, that means all eternity.

The main reason I believe in God is because there had to be something in time that has been here before anything. Sometimes you contradict yourself and say, well, who created God? Well then it leaves you to an answer, well, He has been here forever.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote *Stealth* Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 July 2007 at 12:02am
There is a great deal of stupidity from the Christian side in here.


That's coming from a Christian.
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