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Toilet Paper and other idiocy

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FlimFlam Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 April 2007 at 12:06pm

Originally posted by Tae Kwon Do Tae Kwon Do wrote:

I am sticking with the general theme of the thread and talking about cleaning yourself.


Has anybody in here used a bidet? Do they really work? Is it as refreshing as it looks?

I've been in several countries where they're used... but never used one myself.  Honestly, they need to leave an instruction manual with them or something.  There's no seat on them... am I supposed to hover?  Just sit down in the basin?  I don't know the protocol...


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote c4cypher Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 April 2007 at 12:14pm
Yeeesh, never thought I'd see the day where a flamewar broke out over toilet paper.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tolgak Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 April 2007 at 12:15pm
Originally posted by oldsoldier oldsoldier wrote:

Originally posted by evillepaintball evillepaintball wrote:

i always thought the most abundant GHG was H2O....


See...our education system and false fact repetion at work, proves point of the agenda here, confuse facts, and you can push anything.

Di-Hydro mono-oxide = 2 parts Hydrogen 1 part oxygen, commanly known as H2O


That's not BS. Water vapour is the most abundant greenhouse gas. It's obviously what makes up clouds and vapour alone traps in heat. It has nothing to do with politics. Increased humidity in the air is just as bad as CO2. Believe me, I was required to do a paper on saving the environment and I did my best to show all the facts besides what was being spewed out of your so-called "tree-hugger" sites.


I have a feeling OS is doing this to prove a point in school or to other people or something, not just for himself. I'm calling for all forumers to ignore his threads. Who's with me?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clark Kent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 April 2007 at 12:28pm
Originally posted by FlimFlam FlimFlam wrote:

Honestly, they need to leave an instruction manual with them or something.  There's no seat on them... am I supposed to hover?  Just sit down in the basin?  I don't know the protocol...

Done.

In my experience most users would find it odd to actually sit down instead of hovering, but I know that many people do sit down as well.

Of course, the more common in-home "hand bidet" is easier to use, since is basically a hand-held shower head attached to the toiled.  Just spray as needed.  I actually prefer these to the standalone bidets, since I don't have to get up and walk around half-dressed.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tae Kwon Do Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 April 2007 at 12:31pm
It just seems like that would be extremely refreshing. Even after the best and most effective of wipes, there is still some little tiny bits of residue. Just seems like the bidet would make you feel super clean.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote -ProDigY- Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 April 2007 at 12:57pm
In South America bidets were standard practice.
I dug them.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote evillepaintball Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 April 2007 at 1:28pm
damn, i need to go back to chemistry
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote c4cypher Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 April 2007 at 1:30pm

Originally posted by Tolgak Tolgak wrote:


I have a feeling OS is doing this to prove a point in school or to other people or something, not just for himself. I'm calling for all forumers to ignore his threads. Who's with me?

Um, not me?

1. I seriously doubt OS is still in school, I don't know him or any details about his life for certain, but I have a gut feeling.

2. Yes, he does troll a bit with his right wing perspective, and while he does appear to me to be further to the Right than I am, I agree with a good portion of what he says, I do call myself a conservative.

3. If you feel like he's trolling, DO NOT POST, rising to his bait and then starting this 'let's freeze him out of our little clubhouse' crap is inane ... and indicates that he got what he wanted out of you (assuming that he's trolling) ... that is ... a reaction. The only thing that you accomplish by trying somthing like this is to make yourself look like a childish idiot.

4. This is a thread ... about ... TOILET PAPER ... yeesh, ... yes I know that he threw a few barbs out there aimed at leftists and enviornmentalists, getting upset about it is only going to entertain him and/or reinforce the steryotype of leftist/environmentalists or whatever that he's baiting to. Please learn to pick your battles. What are you going to accomplish by flaming over this? Who are you going to convince?

Feel free to express your opinon, heck, that's what this forum is for, but anything beyond this ... I'm going to take a lighter tone.



Edited by c4cypher - 23 April 2007 at 1:33pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tolgak Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 April 2007 at 2:19pm
Originally posted by c4cypher c4cypher wrote:

Originally posted by Tolgak Tolgak wrote:


I have a feeling OS is doing this to prove a point in school or to other people or something, not just for himself. I'm calling for all forumers to ignore his threads. Who's with me?

Um, not me?

1. I seriously doubt OS is still in school, I don't know him or any details about his life for certain, but I have a gut feeling.

From what I understand in older threads, OS goes to classes at some school.

2. Yes, he does troll a bit with his right wing perspective, and while he does appear to me to be further to the Right than I am, I agree with a good portion of what he says, I do call myself a conservative.

3. If you feel like he's trolling, DO NOT POST, rising to his bait and then starting this 'let's freeze him out of our little clubhouse' crap is inane ... and indicates that he got what he wanted out of you (assuming that he's trolling) ... that is ... a reaction. The only thing that you accomplish by trying somthing like this is to make yourself look like a childish idiot.

It seems to me like he's up to something. By getting us to respond, especially with posts that don't mean anything, he's already won.

4. This is a thread ... about ... TOILET PAPER ... yeesh, ... yes I know that he threw a few barbs out there aimed at leftists and enviornmentalists, getting upset about it is only going to entertain him and/or reinforce the steryotype of leftist/environmentalists or whatever that he's baiting to. Please learn to pick your battles. What are you going to accomplish by flaming over this? Who are you going to convince?

I'm not upset. In fact, I like reading these threads. I just want to see what it would be like if we actively denied to take part in any of them. How his response would be. Maybe to see OS to post a thread without a single ounce of politics in it.

Feel free to express your opinon, heck, that's what this forum is for, but anything beyond this ... I'm going to take a lighter tone.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldsoldier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 April 2007 at 2:24pm
I am out of school and back on the road. The reason for the posts are to get debate and thought going, not just bobble heads reciting the current media tag lines.
If many would take the time to search out and possible understand the opposing views, just maybe they could come to a rational conclussion, instead of just following the current path as directed.

The hyprocracy of the issue is the point.............
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clark Kent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 April 2007 at 2:37pm

Originally posted by oldsoldier oldsoldier wrote:



The hyprocracy of the issue is the point.............

Indeed.  As in the hypocrisy of declaring an obligation not to destroy the environment, and in the same breath absolving yourself of all responsibility until "the scientists finally decide what exactly is the true error of our ways".

Very convenient.  You get to declare moral superiority without any moral responsibility.

Not only don't you have to do anything, you don't even have to feel guilty about not caring.  You can happily go about your wasteful destructive ways without worrying, since it really isn't your problem.

That is a very elegant piece of buck-passing.  I am impressed.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldsoldier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 April 2007 at 3:17pm
How do we all know, or assume that I have no enviornmental concerns. Unless I quote the current politically correct enviornmental psuedo-science I am wrong?
Do any of you know my enviornmental habits, the organizations I belong to or support. No, but many can stand on thier high horse and make statements on me without knowing. I point out current media and individuals with the power to really influance the situation and how they "abuse" thier cause, and it is my moral responsibility we are worried about.
Just because I have a differant opinion, and may follow a course differant than the mainstream "requirements" I am wrong, and not of good moral charactor?

BTW went out to lunch downtown Lincoln, past the park where the Earth Day festivities happened, amazed, stryofoam cups and trash littering the park area, though the point was to raise awarness and to make the earth you walk on better than before, and I am the one questioned.

Really Clark, I am impressed.


Edited by oldsoldier - 23 April 2007 at 3:22pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote usafpilot07 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 April 2007 at 3:23pm
Originally posted by evillepaintball evillepaintball wrote:

i always thought the most abundant GHG was H2O...

as for the mars ice caps melting, it happens every year.  the ice caps on mars arent frozen H2O like they are here on Earth.  mars has CO2 icecaps.  during the winter months, the atmosphere around the poles freezes and lays on the ground as dry ice.  during the spring and summer months, it warms because of the sun shining on it and it evaporates back into the air.


I'm pretty sure that only the northern Mars ice-cap is solely CO2.  A good amount of H20 is locked away in the southern ice-cap, as many of the proposed teraforming projects are based on the amount of water that could be released into the air/forming atmosphere from it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clark Kent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 April 2007 at 3:26pm

I don't know how I missed this gem the first time around...  sorry for the double post.

Originally posted by oldsoldier oldsoldier wrote:

I beleive Mt St Helen's put more greenhouse gasses and particular polutants in the atmosphere in four days than man has is 4 centuries.

The origins of this myth are clouded, but I believe it goes back to a book written a few years back (Trashing the Planet, by Dixy Ray).  It certainly has legs, however.

In any event, the claim that volcanoes put out more CO2 than humans is factually incorrect, but also displays a lack of understanding of the issue.  The numbers get a little iffier when we talk about SO2, but people unfortunately tend to lump those (and other pollutants) simply as "greenhouse gases".

According to the USGS, the COMBINED annual output of all vocanoes worldwide, including underwater volcanoes, is about 145-255 million tons of CO2.  It varies mainly depending on how many volcanoes erupt in any given year, but volcanoes put out CO2 all the time, regardless of eruptions (which most people fail to remember).  The estimates I have seen for Mount St. Helens' eruption in 1980 have been in the range of 10-15 million tons.  Eruptions look spectacular, but are just part of volcanic activity.

In comparison, the standard count for CO2 put out by human activity is about 24 BILLION tons of CO2/year.  For the math-challenged, that is about 100-150 times more than the combined volcanic activity.  Human impact on CO2 emissions completely dwarfs volcanic activity.

The volcano bit is simply false.

Moreover, even if it were true, it still would be beside the point, because it's not like we are trying to STOP CO2 emissions.  We need CO2, and lots of it.  The issue is balance and change.  The planet is not going to suddenly explode if the CO2 count goes too high, but the changes brought on by this may be unpleasant to us.

Even if volcanoes did contribute more CO2 than humans, that would still be the wrong question - the real question is whether we, by our actions, are adding the last straw to the camels back that will lead to unpleasant change.  Or, better yet - is there something we can do to avoid or delay unpleasant change, regardless of whether we caused it?

The question isn't so much about who/what caused the change - there are millions of contributing factors.  The REAL question is whether we can do something now that will result in better living conditions for our grandchildren.

Environmentalism, or sustainability if you prefer, isn't really about "saving" the environment - it's about preserving a climate in which we (humans) can survive, and preferably survive without too much change to our way of life.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clark Kent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 April 2007 at 3:35pm

Originally posted by oldsoldier oldsoldier wrote:

How do we all know, or assume that I have no enviornmental concerns.

All I know of you is what you post.  Upon this I base all of my conclusions.  Your post spoke quite clearly for itself.  If you add to that by additional posts, then I will modify my conclusion as data is added.

But I do not believe that you are alone in that buck-passing mindset - it is very common, to be sure.  And in most of the country, doing something out of the ordinary for express environmental purposes is somehow seen as bad.

Solar panels on a roof actually REDUCE the value of that home in much of the country.

But here's another consideration, from that bastion of liberal thought, The Economist.  Last fall they had an issue on global warming.  They examined available evidence.  Their conclusion?  They viewed the evidence in favor of the "consensus" view as powerful but not conclusive.  Their analysis, however, was much simpler:  The potential result of climate change would be total economic devastation.  It would be truly foolish not to spend the money now to protect against it. 

You do not buy fire insurance because you expect your home to burn, but because it might, and that would really suck.  The Economist concluded that there are easily enough evidence to justify spending billions upon billions in efforts to combat this change.  A simple application of Pascal's Wager will show the wisdom of this conclusion.

Sitting around waiting for "scientific certainty" is the sure path to extinction.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Squishey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 April 2007 at 3:51pm
i wanna do my part to help the enviornment but this has gone too far, and it is completely ridiculas, if a law or bill was passed to say that you could only use one piece of paper per visit there would be no one to actually enfore the law and punish those that use excess amounts. and on another note i dont think anyone has ever been able to properly clean themselves after diariha with one square of paper. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Squishey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 April 2007 at 3:52pm
Originally posted by FlimFlam FlimFlam wrote:

Originally posted by Tae Kwon Do Tae Kwon Do wrote:

I am sticking with the general theme of the thread and talking about cleaning yourself.


Has anybody in here used a bidet? Do they really work? Is it as refreshing as it looks?

I've been in several countries where they're used... but never used one myself.  Honestly, they need to leave an instruction manual with them or something.  There's no seat on them... am I supposed to hover?  Just sit down in the basin?  I don't know the protocol...


hooray for double post!

i went to italy on march break and there was bidet's in all of our hotel rooms, anyways long story-short i pooped in one before we left the hotel one day.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote evillepaintball Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 April 2007 at 4:08pm
Originally posted by usafpilot07 usafpilot07 wrote:

Originally posted by evillepaintball evillepaintball wrote:

i always thought the most abundant GHG was H2O...

as for the mars ice caps melting, it happens every year.  the ice caps on mars arent frozen H2O like they are here on Earth.  mars has CO2 icecaps.  during the winter months, the atmosphere around the poles freezes and lays on the ground as dry ice.  during the spring and summer months, it warms because of the sun shining on it and it evaporates back into the air.


I'm pretty sure that only the northern Mars ice-cap is solely CO2.  A good amount of H20 is locked away in the southern ice-cap, as many of the proposed teraforming projects are based on the amount of water that could be released into the air/forming atmosphere from it.


From what I read here, it sounds like they are both C02.  it doesnt directly state whether or not they both are, but it sounds like thats the case the way it is written. 
Quote The south polar cap is vaporizing now, which means CO2 is rushing back into the atmosphere. "Remember, though," adds Smith, "there are two polar caps on Mars--north and south. While the south polar cap is vaporizing the north polar cap is growing. It's a balancing act. Overall air pressure will be greatest when there's the least amount of CO2 on the ground." The next such peak is due in early October--that is, early southern summer on Mars.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote .Ryan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 April 2007 at 4:12pm
Hey guys, let's play....SPOT THE FALLACY!!11




.......





...Ok, give up? It's.....



The Strawman! Yay!


You see, what OS has done in the particular debate, although I see it often from him, is take an obviously stupid and laughable suggestion from an environmentalist and used it to characterize the entire environmental movement as stupid and laughable....Set up an easy target, knock it down, and take credit for doing something much more! Good job OS!!


Round of applauds everybody!!!1



Edited by .Ryan - 23 April 2007 at 4:14pm

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote c4cypher Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 April 2007 at 4:27pm

And boy ... does it get some people up in a lather, whether they'll admit it or not.

Originally posted by Tolgak Tolgak wrote:

It seems to me like he's up to something. By getting us to respond, especially with posts that don't mean anything, he's already won.

Depends on what the competition is for ... heck, I can see only two reasons for coming to this forum, entertainment and information. I come here for both. If you ask me ... somone has only won somthing if you agree to play with them and they 'win' at it. I can't speak for OS over whether he finds this entertaining or not. I'm not even sure why I allowed myself to get drawn into it beyond the fact that the tone in here was turning nasty, over an environmental debate.

I'm not attacking you personally Tolgak, I was just hoping we could tone things down and keep it in perspective.



Edited by c4cypher - 23 April 2007 at 4:32pm
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