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VT Shootings- Some thoughts

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dune Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 April 2007 at 10:54pm

Just because there was one instance of it working does not mean it would be the same. Therefore, being pro-guns on college campuses is just as much idiotic rhetort right now as being anti-gun. Get into a situation like that, then come tell me how you reacted.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote  Rp Fr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 April 2007 at 11:02pm
Originally posted by Dune Dune wrote:

Just because there was one instance of it working does not mean it would be the same. Therefore, being pro-guns on college campuses is just as much idiotic rhetort right now as being anti-gun. Get into a situation like that, then come tell me how you reacted.

Yes, it has been stated many many times now that human instinct will kick in and the person may not act. But just as rednekk said, I still fail to see how an armed person could have made the situation any worse. And the one instance is pretty significant, considering that there have only been a few college shootings, and during one of them an armed person happen to be present and was able to control the situation.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dune Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 April 2007 at 11:03pm
An armed person could have been dramatically worse. More innocents killed, the civilian killed leaving more ammo, etc. I'm not saying it wouldn't have swung either way, but too much credit is going to one instance and all the negatives are overlooked. All these individuals shot and killed by one gunman, I'm sure if asked many of them would have said they would have taken down a shooter in a hypothetical situation too.

Edited by Dune - 17 April 2007 at 11:05pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tae Kwon Do Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 April 2007 at 11:12pm
I was reading the first part and was genially interested in what he was saying.

I (as well as other writers) have been trying to asses how it all went down, what the campus police did correctly and poorly and how to correct it. I tend to agree with OS with the idea that they didn't fumble the process between the first murder and the killing spree. The best they could tell with the first two killings were an isolated domestic dispute. How could they have known what was coming?

And as far as the people who cry that they should have shut the campus down after the first one, that much is silly. Campuses for colleges are not meant to be locked down. They are built and designed to be free and open to the public. You cannot just shuffle out that many people at once.




I was hoping that the whole thread would stay strategic and insightful.


Then...

Originally posted by oldsoldier oldsoldier wrote:


blah blah blah 2nd Admendment Rights



I quit reading.


Edited by Tae Kwon Do - 17 April 2007 at 11:22pm

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote impulse! Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 April 2007 at 11:15pm

I blame immigration!!!! nah not really

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pariel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 April 2007 at 11:22pm
Originally posted by Dune Dune wrote:

An armed person could have been dramatically worse. More innocents killed, the civilian killed leaving more ammo, etc. I'm not saying it wouldn't have swung either way, but too much credit is going to one instance and all the negatives are overlooked. All these individuals shot and killed by one gunman, I'm sure if asked many of them would have said they would have taken down a shooter in a hypothetical situation too.


Can I point out that he didn't run out of ammo? The extra ammo would most likely have been a moot point. He wasn't spraying and praying, he was obviously disciplined about his firing, so saying the CCW owner would have been useless is ridiculous.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dune Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 April 2007 at 11:29pm
Saying he would have done any better is just as ridiculous. The point, for everyone apparantly not reading these posts is that a civilian armed at the scene could not be said to have had more of a positive impact than a negative. The people that can admit "we don't know" are the only correct ones. The fact that he still had ammo is moot because you didn't know that until afterward. Making guess assumptions as to how it would have went down is the exact same thing everyone else is doing by claiming to be potential heros that would have jumped in, saved a person, and taken a bullet. The gun debate will rise, but it's too soon, and pathetic that more guns on the scene would have automatically been a good thing. There is no answer, so the guessing is just politically motivated on both sides.

Edited by Dune - 17 April 2007 at 11:30pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brihard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 April 2007 at 11:31pm
Originally posted by Pariel Pariel wrote:

Originally posted by Dune Dune wrote:

An armed person could have been dramatically worse. More innocents killed, the civilian killed leaving more ammo, etc. I'm not saying it wouldn't have swung either way, but too much credit is going to one instance and all the negatives are overlooked. All these individuals shot and killed by one gunman, I'm sure if asked many of them would have said they would have taken down a shooter in a hypothetical situation too.


Can I point out that he didn't run out of ammo? The extra ammo would most likely have been a moot point. He wasn't spraying and praying, he was obviously disciplined about his firing, so saying the CCW owner would have been useless is ridiculous.


Let's make it easier:

If you were one of the students in that class room, would you or would you not have preferred to have a gun and the basic knowledge to use it?

If you answer yes, than how could you deny that same self-protective instinct to others facing similar situations?

Following that train of logic, and given that these situations cannot be predicted, but are growing increasingly frequent, why should an individual not have the right to possess the means to defend him or herself if those means made them felt secure?

Clearly law enforcement are ineffective at stopping these situations until they've already passed the point of tragedy... If noone else can protect you effectively, how can those same people who fail in the duty the state has assumed ethically deny you the opportunity to protect yourself more effectively than they are able to?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Da Hui Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 April 2007 at 11:39pm
They are taking about how its video games/TV's fault on CNN right now.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sonex Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 April 2007 at 11:42pm

Woooowww...As much as I agree with both sides...I think that things could have gone different if more guns were there...cause lets face it people with guns does not really equal intelligent, if we have one tard who has a gun but is completely ignorant to accuracy and the use of his gun all he has done is be shot and add to the anger of the shoot

The other side of this would be someone who actually is good with a gun and takes him out...but then there are legal things and conspiracy crap and that could would never live down shooting someone else, and that would be a bad situation...so either way nothing good was coming out of that situation...

I think that we just need stricter background checks on people buying guns because do tend to give it to any retard who wants one (given no criminal record or psychotic tendencies)...

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Da Hui Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 April 2007 at 11:45pm
Now there is discussion on how Rap is to blame. I hate this crap.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brihard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 April 2007 at 11:48pm
Originally posted by Sonex Sonex wrote:

Woooowww...As much as I agree with both sides...I think that things could have gone different if more guns were there...cause lets face it people with guns does not really equal intelligent, if we have one tard who has a gun but is completely ignorant to accuracy and the use of his gun all he has done is be shot and add to the anger of the shoot

The other side of this would be someone who actually is good with a gun and takes him out...but then there are legal things and conspiracy crap and that could would never live down shooting someone else, and that would be a bad situation...so either way nothing good was coming out of that situation...

I think that we just need stricter background checks on people buying guns because do tend to give it to any retard who wants one (given no criminal record or psychotic tendencies)...



Screw the legal things and conspiracy crap. My nation's laws are very clear about my rights to self-defense, defense of another party, and stopping an offense in the commission.

Worst comes to worst, I'll trust a court of law more than a psycho gunman.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kristofer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 April 2007 at 8:06am
my only concern is this. if you are going ninja style and you are carrying a concealed weapon. then someone starts shooting. so you shoot that person. well here in Mass. youre pretty much screwed. you cant use your weapon to defend anything. so unless more states are like new hampshire or something where you are able to use your weapon in defense of yourself or others, i dont see the whole if everyone is packing heat thing crime will stop or slow down because they are afraid of being shot. its just not possible. i'm all for gun rights and what not. but gun rights only go so far when states screw on them.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote c4cypher Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 April 2007 at 8:40am
Originally posted by  Rp Fr Rp Fr wrote:

Originally posted by Da Hui Da Hui wrote:

Originally posted by ANARCHY_SCOUT ANARCHY_SCOUT wrote:

Originally posted by The American The American wrote:

Originally posted by Tolgak Tolgak wrote:

I agree with everything.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brihard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 April 2007 at 9:35am

Originally posted by Kristofer Kristofer wrote:

my only concern is this. if you are going ninja style and you are carrying a concealed weapon. then someone starts shooting. so you shoot that person. well here in Mass. youre pretty much screwed. you cant use your weapon to defend anything. so unless more states are like new hampshire or something where you are able to use your weapon in defense of yourself or others, i dont see the whole if everyone is packing heat thing crime will stop or slow down because they are afraid of being shot. its just not possible. i'm all for gun rights and what not. but gun rights only go so far when states screw on them.

 

Of course it will depend on the laws of your jurisdiction... But when all is said and done, better to be judged by twelve than carried by six- and I'm not sure if I could live with some things on my conscience if it was within my ability to stop it and I didn't...



Edited by brihard - 18 April 2007 at 9:36am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rednekk98 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 April 2007 at 10:10am

Originally posted by Kristofer Kristofer wrote:

my only concern is this. if you are going ninja style and you are carrying a concealed weapon. then someone starts shooting. so you shoot that person. well here in Mass. youre pretty much screwed. you cant use your weapon to defend anything. so unless more states are like new hampshire or something where you are able to use your weapon in defense of yourself or others, i dont see the whole if everyone is packing heat thing crime will stop or slow down because they are afraid of being shot. its just not possible. i'm all for gun rights and what not. but gun rights only go so far when states screw on them.
  I'd rather tell it to the judge than St. Peter....

Dune, again, we don't know whether or not a CCW holder could have made a difference since there weren't any there. Your assumption that it would not have made any difference is simply that, an assumption. There are too many different variables that we can never know, but I don't think thats a reason to be against CCW. Your preferred policy was in place at the time this occured and I cant see how that made it any better. At least with CCW there is a chance. From what we do know about this case, resistance did work. Several people did manage to keep the shooter out of the classroom and did act under pressure, at least one of these people had already been shot and definatly did not freeze. When a killer is trying to push his way through a door even a can of mace could have disrupted him significantly. Since he was already on a shooting rampage I'm going to make an assumption that it would have been difficult to piss him off more and inflame the situation.

Even where CCW are legal, few people actually carry. CCW hasn't been proven to increase or decrease crime, so why deny people the option?

Again, the assumption that CCW holders would not be able to react under the stress of the situation cant be a blanket statement. There are probably several hundred thousand Iraq and Afgahnistan vets out there who've been in high stress situations and have good training. I'd say there is probably one in half of my classes, and several with purple hearts.

I'll make a deal with you dune. If you dont assume any CCW holder would muck the situation up completely, I won't assume he'd run towards the gunfire and double tap the shooter in the head.

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote c4cypher Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 April 2007 at 10:53am

Originally posted by Kristofer Kristofer wrote:

my only concern is this. if you are going ninja style and you are carrying a concealed weapon. then someone starts shooting. so you shoot that person. well here in Mass. youre pretty much screwed. you cant use your weapon to defend anything. so unless more states are like new hampshire or something where you are able to use your weapon in defense of yourself or others, i dont see the whole if everyone is packing heat thing crime will stop or slow down because they are afraid of being shot. its just not possible. i'm all for gun rights and what not. but gun rights only go so far when states screw on them.
 

Originally posted by rednekk98 rednekk98 wrote:

I'd rather tell it to the judge than St. Peter....

/agree

Think of it this way, how would have putting another person who had a firearm, regardless of how trained or experienced he was with it, made the situation worse than it already was?

Sure, it might have made the shooter angrier, but heck, he's allready popping people left and right, you don't get much worse than that.

You could argue that it might give the shooter more ammunition, but the shooter (in this case) already had enough ammunition to start a small war, (which he did), would another 10 rounds made it that much worse?

At best the shooter is incapacitated and less people die, at the worst, one of the people who died, died trying to defend himself rather than cowering on the floor.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Da Hui Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 April 2007 at 11:06am

Laws dont matter, if your going to go shoot somebody, chances are you dont really care about going into a "Gun-Free Zone". This guy most likely planned on killing himself before capture. So what does putting more restrictions on those of us who own guns and use them lawfully. It doesn't help.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bunkered Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 April 2007 at 11:21am
Dune, ask yourself this question:
If there is a gunman mowing people down in your general vicinity, are you going to be more comfortable if you have a gun yourself? I don't know about you, but I sure as hell would.
I'd be every bit as comfortable with a CCW holder having a weapon as a cop, since the 5-0 can't seem to get their <stuff> together. Half of them couldn't hit the broad side of a barn with their service pistols.

Additionally, I don't know about you, but if some guy is blasting away at my unarmed classmates and I have a gun, that guy is getting fired on without much thought process. That's the kind of situation where you shoot first, ask questions later.

Edited by Bunkered - 18 April 2007 at 11:23am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reb Cpl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 April 2007 at 11:43am

Originally posted by Tae Kwon Do Tae Kwon Do wrote:




And as far as the people who cry that they should have shut the campus down after the first one, that much is silly. Campuses for colleges are not meant to be locked down. They are built and designed to be free and open to the public. You cannot just shuffle out that many people at once.


I'll admit, I was in that camp at first, basing my thoughts on the fact that with this day and age, as soon as something like a shooting goes down, institutions usually lock up tighter than first night. Schools practice lockdown drills, emergency evacuation drills, and so on.

But after the initial shock of the whole mess faded away, you're absolutely right. Locking down an entire college campus is something that is damn near impossible to do. I did think that someone, somewhere along the lines boggled something up, but in retrospect, it looks like protocol and SOP were done right along the lines of how they were supposed to......there isn't anyone to blame or at fault here other than the guy who pulled the trigger.  

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