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VT Shootings- Some thoughts

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Fonzy79 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fonzy79 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 April 2007 at 9:39am
This is alot of posts, i wish i got paid or laid for each one
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Bruce A. Frank View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bruce A. Frank Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 April 2007 at 11:59pm
Originally posted by Dune Dune wrote:

All these topics already covered, especially that there is no evidence showing someone else carrying a gun would have been a positive in the firefight. Too late, old now.

Hmmm, since there have been several incidents in recent months, some even covered by the old guard media, showing armed citizenry stopping shooters before escalation, it appears that someone legally carrying would have stopped this massacre.

There is no state in the union issuing concealed carry permits that doesn't require demonstration of proficiency with the firearm or evidence of certified instruction or both.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reaver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 April 2007 at 3:36am
^I think this is the first time I've seen you speak in T&O.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dune Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 April 2007 at 7:08am
Like it has been covered many times, proficiency in marksmanship on a paper target and in a fire fight do not equal out.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rednekk98 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 April 2007 at 9:16am

Dune, I agree with you on something. There's no evidence that a CCW holder ould have been able to help the situation. It's absolutly impossible to know for certain whether if CCW was allowed on campus that many people would actually carry if it were permitted. A CCW holder could have easily been shot before he had a chance to draw, may have been locked down in a classroom that wasn't broken into and may never have engaged, hell he could have shot himself trying to draw.  

 However I do disagree with your interpretation that since it cant be proved that it would have helped that it's a bad idea. If CCW doesn't increase or decrease crime, I see no reason to deny people the option. I'm generally in favor of allowing people to do as they please as long as it doesn't adversly effect others.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bunkered Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 April 2007 at 10:02am
Originally posted by rednekk98 rednekk98 wrote:


  I see no reason to deny people the option. I'm generally in favor of allowing people to do as they please as long as it doesn't adversly effect others.



That phrase right there describes the basic intent of the Bill of Rights, and many people don't seem to understand that.
In America, the question should be "why not?" instead of "why?" Something should become illegal only when there is absolute, solid PROOF that it is causing a detriment to society, not simply because the government "doesn't think you need it."
I'm not sure if I communicated that message properly, but I can't think of any other way to word it right now.

Edited by Bunkered - 30 April 2007 at 10:03am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hades Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 April 2007 at 1:05pm
We live in a completely random universe.

There will never be "absolute, solid PROOF" about anything.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dune Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 April 2007 at 3:11pm
Throughout the other thread on this too, I have stated that I do not think...EITHER WAY...that a CCW holder would have been good or bad. I originally stated a theory that it would have been counterproductive, but it wasn't ABSOLUTE. Apparantly only a few others have actually picked up on this.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kayback Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 May 2007 at 7:27am
Originally posted by CarbineKid CarbineKid wrote:

getting bak on topic

Man with concealed-carry permit kills robbery suspect in Cleveland
Tuesday, April 24, 2007 4:30 AM


Associated Press
CLEVELAND—A man who has a permit to carry a concealed gun shot and killed one of two teenage robbery suspects he encountered on his front porch, police said.

About 30 youths gathered Monday at the intersection where Buford died and set up a memorial. His cousin, Tameka Foster, 21, questioned the decision against prosecuting the shooter.

"They let that man run out freely," Foster said. "My cousin is dead."


Your scumbag cousin was a criminal who brandished a weapon to threaten the life of a law abiding citizen.

Your scumbag cousin should be in home watching TV, doing his homework and jacking off to the center fold of Playboy, not out robbing people on their front porches.

If the cops call it a justified shooting, then yes the guy should walk free.

I love how the families always cry foul when the goodguys win a confrontation. Your crappy little kid shouldn't be in a position to get shot if you raised him right. You can't blame the person who defended himself, you can't blame scociety, and you can't blame the firearm, as your kid had a firearm to start off with. The only two things you can blame are 1) your own crappy parenting skills, 2) your kid's own crap choices in life.

I am sad a life was cut short, but by 15 he was already up to armed robbery? Something tells me he wasn't destined for greatness.

KBK
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 May 2007 at 1:06pm
^^^ Nicely put, KBK.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CarbineKid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 May 2007 at 8:24pm
Originally posted by Dune Dune wrote:

Like it has been covered many times, proficiency in marksmanship on a paper target and in a fire fight do not equal out.


You are absolutely correct. Thats why anyone that decides to even own a gun should take as many training classes as they can.   I can not get a permit in my commie state, but I do keep a gun or three at home in case of a break in/Katrina like disaster/etc. The lessons I learned from these classes really opened my eyes. Just owning a gun isn't enough, you gotta learn how to fight with it to survive. Not to mention all the laws that goes along with just owning one.         

Edited by CarbineKid - 04 May 2007 at 12:45am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clark Kent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 May 2007 at 8:39pm

Originally posted by CarbineKid CarbineKid wrote:

  Just owning a gun isn't enough, you gotta learn how to fight with it to survive.

I could not agree more.

Unfortunately, all to many people do not follow this principle, which to me adds significant danger to everybody.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Da Hui Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 May 2007 at 12:15am
I keep a gun in my truck, just in case I need one. Especially when travelling through rural area's. Seriously, cannibles live in the mountains.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tae Kwon Do Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 May 2007 at 7:14pm
Originally posted by oldsoldier oldsoldier wrote:


Isreal, and Switzerland have one of the lowest violent criminal act rates in the world, why, because everyone and every home has a gun and people are trained to use it

Sorry for the bump, but I saw this in Newsweek.

USA = 270,000,000 firearms = 90 firearms per 100 people.

Switzerland = 3,400,000 firearms = 46 firearms per 100 people.

Everyone in every home?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brian Fellows Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 May 2007 at 8:01pm
Originally posted by Da Hui Da Hui wrote:

I keep a gun in my truck, just in case I need one. Especially when travelling through rural area's. Seriously, cannibles live in the mountains.

I would call shens, but considering the part of the country you live in, I can believe it.


Edited by Brian Fellows - 05 May 2007 at 8:02pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldsoldier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 May 2007 at 8:07pm
Every male fit for service between 18 and 56 is either in the active Swiss Army and or thier version of National Guard. Each member keeps his service rifle at his home as part of his obligation to service. So it is possible that each home (that has a male 18-56 residing there) has 1 ea Standard Service Rifle in the house, as required by Swiss Military Service Law.

Members of the Swiss Armed forces is required to take mandatory basic training and specialty training, then either serve active or in the Home Guard until thier 65th birthday.

Famously, members of the armed forces keep their rifles and uniforms in their homes for immediate mobilisation, as well as 50 rounds of ammunition in a sealed tin, to be used for self defence while traveling to the mobilisation points. Additional ammunition is kept at military bases where the militia are supposed to report. Swiss military doctrines are arranged in ways that make this organisation very effective and rapid. Switzerland claims to be able to mobilise the entire population for warfare within 12 hours. In contrast, it can take several weeks to several months for a militarily-active country such as the United States to mobilise its military force.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tae Kwon Do Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 May 2007 at 8:19pm
Originally posted by oldsoldier oldsoldier wrote:

as well as 50 rounds of ammunition in a sealed tin,



So wait, I thought the reason that the Swiss had such a lower homicide rate than the US was because every citizen was armed up ready to go...

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldsoldier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 May 2007 at 9:22pm
Let me explain the ways of a soldier, or general male with a little testosterone left. Somewhere, somehow, I am willing to bet there are a few unaccounted for 7.62X51 NATO, or 5.56X45, or even 9X19 in each home, just for that little unforeseen emergency. The Swiss are a tough bunch, not like the average American relie on the system crowd. And guns as well as ammunition is pretty easy to find over there, even though banned or under real tough gun laws, at your local Waffen Keller.

I allways had a mag of 5.56 loaded and buried in my ruck, just in case, and where did I get them, accountability in every army is kinda lax.

Have you been to Europe?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clark Kent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 May 2007 at 9:47pm

Originally posted by oldsoldier oldsoldier wrote:

Let me explain the ways of a soldier, or general male with a little testosterone left. Somewhere, somehow, I am willing to bet there are a few unaccounted for 7.62X51 NATO, or 5.56X45, or even 9X19 in each home, just for that little unforeseen emergency.

....


Have you been to Europe?

I have in fact been to Europe, and have VERY close relationships with a large number of men that live in countries where service weapons are issued and kept at the home.   Not Switzerland specifically, but others with similar structures.

And in the countries with which I am familiar, having a "few rounds unaccounted for" is a very serious criminal offense.  That tin is sealed for a reason, and if it is EVERY unsealed there will be hell to pay.

I can say with great confidence that out of all the service-weapon-keeping European men that I know, ZERO percent have any ammunition that could fire in their service weapon outside of that sealed tin.  I have seen the tin; I have held the tin.  There is no "accidentally" losing some rounds out of the tin.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldsoldier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 May 2007 at 11:15pm
So you are telling me that there is no ammunition available from "grey" sources? OK you can believe that, I can go into almost any large metro in Germany/Italy and get any type ammo required, even 7.92Kurz.
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