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Virginia Tech shooting

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brihard View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brihard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 April 2007 at 6:00pm
Originally posted by Tae Kwon Do Tae Kwon Do wrote:

Originally posted by travis75 travis75 wrote:

4chan is raiding habbo, dressed as Asians...


They have been having a blast with this whole thing.


Have they ever.

It's a pretty twisted place...
"Abortion is not "choice" in America. It is forced and the democrats are behind it, with the goal of eugenics at its foundation."

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ANARCHY_SCOUT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 April 2007 at 6:03pm
I don't know if this is insensitive, but I laughed at his parents owning a dry cleaning buisness. 
Gamertag: Kataklysm999
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rednekk98 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 April 2007 at 6:28pm

The guys who blocked the door with his body was a Hollocaust survivor as well. Although many of you are willing to dismiss the idea of any hero tactics as being practical or effective, but when you're talking people trying to maximize casulties, it really seems to be effective. Richard Reid was stopped, United 93 was stopped from reaching its target, and Isreal hasn't had a hijacking since passengers beat down, hog tied and slaughtered terrorists. I think that if we as a national community actually think about situations like this and reach some sort of consenus that we cannot allow these things to happen and inaction will only make things worse, people will be much more likely to act. Isreal has adopted a national attitude that they will not be idle victims ever again. I think we could afford to think the same. If people didnt think we're such pussies they would be less likely to be targeted.

 

As for gun topics:

BBC world just did a story completely blasting this counry since anyone who is now a convicted felon can just buy a gun. And that any politician who talks about tougher gun control would be "in the sights of the gun fanatics" with a visual of someone aiming at a target then firing with the scaries looking M-forgery they could find.

Brian Williams just asked Bush "What are you going to do about these guns?". Yeah, we're all totally screwed.

 



Edited by rednekk98 - 17 April 2007 at 7:01pm
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Dune View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dune Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 April 2007 at 6:48pm
And on the opposite end, politicians and some media has been warning about rushing to strict gun control. It always goes both ways, and is way too early for any of it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RicWhic414 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 April 2007 at 8:28pm
First they will never get rid of firearms. And even if they do ban them the same thing will happen when they tried to get rid of alcohol.

Second there is no defense or anything anyone could have done to prevent this situation. Honestly what would you do if someone is coming at you with a firearm (don't act all big and say o hell I would go kick that kids ass) because everyone knows that 99% of us would sit in the corner and beg for our lives. Now maybe a group could have went after him and stopped him.

I hate how the media keep asking about why didn't the police do this why didn't the police do that... The police did what they thought was best given the amount of information that they received.

All and all I think this was a horrible horrible thing. This kid was a time bomb waiting to explode. The only thing that could have change this was maybe better parenting, or maybe people that he came into contact with in his life were more nice to him. I don't know correct me if I'm wrong but that is the way I see it.
Tuesday starts the weekend... YAYAYA!!!!
CHUFF CHUFF
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GI JOES SON Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 April 2007 at 9:21pm

Originally posted by RicWhic414 RicWhic414 wrote:



I hate how the media keep asking about why didn't the police do this why didn't the police do that... The police did what they thought was best given the amount of information that they received.

yea, the media does suck for that....the cops cant tell from the street that theres one shooter or where he is or how many gun/rounds hes got...frankly i'd probably do what they did and take cover behind the cars

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pariel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 April 2007 at 9:30pm
The police didn't pick a bad response--the obvious failure was the total failure to track down and apprehend the shooter after the first killings.

Frankly, I doubt the police could have effectively engaged him within the building without getting more students killed in the crossfire, unless they had been extremely lucky. As I said before though, I believe SOP would be to enter the building with a SWAT team and neutralize the gunman, so I do wonder what reason they had not to do so.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ShortyBP Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 April 2007 at 10:30pm
Originally posted by Pariel Pariel wrote:

As I said before though, I believe SOP would be to enter the building with a SWAT team and neutralize the gunman, so I do wonder what reason they had not to do so.
While I will never claim to have any knowledge on police SOP... from what I have observed, it is not SOP for [American] police to rush a SWAT/SRT team into a situation to 'quickly neutralize'. SWAT usually takes the time to assess, establish an outer perimeter, gain knowledge of the building interior and wait on whatever intel they can get on the shooter(s). All of which takes time, and seemingly takes eons in incidents such as this and Columbine, where shooting is still ongoing.

Although after this and prior incidents... I do wonder if SOP will become the more aggressive 'in as soon as possible' stance. Difficult decision in regards to establishing SOP. I'm sure there are plenty of examples where not rushing in is the safer choice for everyone involved... however we then face incidents like this one, where rushing in might have been beneficial. I do not envy those who have to make such decisions in establishing a SOP such as this... get it right, and you get a pat on the back for 'doing your job' and all is forgotten... get it 'wrong', and you're crucified.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote  Rp Fr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 April 2007 at 10:34pm
Originally posted by ShortyBP ShortyBP wrote:

I do not envy those who have to make such decisions in establishing a SOP such as this... get it right, and you get a pat on the back for 'doing your job' and all is forgotten... get it 'wrong', and you're crucified.

So true.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pariel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 April 2007 at 10:35pm
I can't disagree with anything you say Shorty, I just know that at Columbine and a number of other school shootings, the cops set up a dozen officers outside, then sent in the SWAT team. Both times I remember, the kids heard the SWAT team was there and shot themselves.

Same as this guy--maybe if he'd known a team was coming in earlier, he would have taken his life earlier.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MetallicaESPa5 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 April 2007 at 10:43pm
It's truly a tradegy.

When I transfer to Va Tech in two years, I guess I can expect one hell
of a safe school.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote impulse! Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 April 2007 at 1:21am
Did I just hear his girl friend was imaginary?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ShortyBP Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 April 2007 at 6:59am
Originally posted by MetallicaESPa5 MetallicaESPa5 wrote:

When I transfer to Va Tech in two years, I guess I can expect one hell
of a safe school.
Actually, I'd be surprised if it were any different than it is now. It IS a safe school, and it WAS a safe school, and I'm sure it will continue to BE a safe school.

Originally posted by impulse! impulse! wrote:

Did I just hear his girl friend was imaginary?
Yes. This guy was all sorts of wacko.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brihard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 April 2007 at 9:34am

Originally posted by Pariel Pariel wrote:

I can't disagree with anything you say Shorty, I just know that at Columbine and a number of other school shootings, the cops set up a dozen officers outside, then sent in the SWAT team. Both times I remember, the kids heard the SWAT team was there and shot themselves.

Same as this guy--maybe if he'd known a team was coming in earlier, he would have taken his life earlier.

You are correct- however, as a result of columbine, most police forces have adopted the policy of 'Active shooter Response'. I know we even have this up here in Ottawa.

The first officer on the scene assumes command until relieved. The next four form a four-man 'stack' or 'brick'; a four man stack is the basic unit for tactical entry. Those four will then immediately approach the scene, attempt to make entry and attempt to engage and neutralize the shooter. As mroe officers arrive, a perimeter is set up, and if a tactical team arrives they'll move up fast and move through and past the initial response officers to continue the entry.

The entire goal is a fast neutralization of someone who's trying to kill people. Even if they can't kill him right away they may pin him down. They've realized that waiting for a SWAT team and negotiating just gets people killed. Four officers working in concert can take down most threats, or at least improve the tactical situation noticeably.

Most city of Ottawa patrol cars now have one of these (or very similar) in the trunk with this in mind:

 

"Abortion is not "choice" in America. It is forced and the democrats are behind it, with the goal of eugenics at its foundation."

-FreeEnterprise, 21 April 2011.

Yup, he actually said that.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Razgriz Ghost Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 April 2007 at 9:36am
Rainbow Six? RVS is so awesome

Edited by Razgriz Ghost - 18 April 2007 at 9:36am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brihard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 April 2007 at 9:38am

Originally posted by Razgriz Ghost Razgriz Ghost wrote:

Rainbow Six? RVS is so awesome

 

The hell are you talking about?

"Abortion is not "choice" in America. It is forced and the democrats are behind it, with the goal of eugenics at its foundation."

-FreeEnterprise, 21 April 2011.

Yup, he actually said that.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Da Hui Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 April 2007 at 9:45am
Originally posted by impulse! impulse! wrote:

Did I just hear his girl friend was imaginary?
His imaginary girlfriend broke up with him? Wow.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Razgriz Ghost Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 April 2007 at 9:59am
Originally posted by brihard brihard wrote:

Originally posted by Razgriz Ghost Razgriz Ghost wrote:

Rainbow Six? RVS is so awesome

 

The hell are you talking about?

What you were explaining, it just reminded me of rainbow six.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pariel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 April 2007 at 10:23am
Originally posted by brihard brihard wrote:

Originally posted by Pariel Pariel wrote:

I can't disagree with anything you say Shorty, I just know that at Columbine and a number of other school shootings, the cops set up a dozen officers outside, then sent in the SWAT team. Both times I remember, the kids heard the SWAT team was there and shot themselves. Same as this guy--maybe if he'd known a team was coming in earlier, he would have taken his life earlier.


You are correct- however, as a result of columbine, most police forces have adopted the policy of 'Active shooter Response'. I know we even have this up here in Ottawa.


The first officer on the scene assumes command until relieved. The next four form a four-man 'stack' or 'brick'; a four man stack is the basicunit for tactical entry. Those four will then immediately approach the scene, attempt to make entry and attempt to engage and neutralize the shooter. As mroe officers arrive, a perimeter is set up, and if a tactical team arrives they'll move up fast and move through and past the initial response officers to continue the entry.


The entire goal is a fast neutralization of someone who's trying to kill people. Even if they can't kill him right away they may pin him down. They've realized that waiting for a SWAT team and negotiating just gets people killed. Four officers working in concert can take down most threats, or at least improve the tactical situation noticeably.


Most city of Ottawa patrol cars now have one of these (or very similar)in the trunk with this in mind:



That only emphasizes my point...they should not have been sitting outside--according to you, as soon as they had enough personnel to enter the building, but certainly not with at least one, possible multiple (since I'm betting multiple departments responded), SWAT teams surrounding the building.

When the Columbine shooters found out a SWAT team was coming after them, they killed themselves rather than face a shoot out and possible arrest. Whether this guy would have tried to shoot it out or not, a 4-man SWAT team would have neutralized him, so why the hell weren't they in there?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rednekk98 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 April 2007 at 10:49am

From one of the cell phone vids, the one they keep showing on NBC, I think you can hear them breaching the building near the end. If the doors were chained I can see how it would take a while for them to get in. I'm thinking in the future doors in places like this will be designed so they won't be able to be chained shut.

I hope that out of this some change in the way the police and students react will be different. Tactics did change after columbine, I've heard the same thing about active shooter response, but in addition to lockdown it might be time to teach students how to react if a shooter does breach the classroom. At that point it seems that anything besides sitting in place would help to at least make for a more difficult target.

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