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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote procarbinefreak Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 January 2007 at 1:21pm
even if they wipe occasionally, they're still better than you.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tae Kwon Do Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 January 2007 at 1:40pm
The justification of cheating is probably one of the main reasons I stopped playing paintball in the first place.

The point of the whole entire game is that you shoot someone, they are out. When you void that it becomes a silly game of flag running. Why even use guns at that point, just make it hand tag.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 January 2007 at 4:10pm
Originally posted by Tae Kwon Do Tae Kwon Do wrote:



The point of the whole entire game is that you shoot someone, they are out. When you void that it becomes a silly game of flag running. Why even use guns at that point, just make it hand tag.



Nicely said.

Additionally, someone mentioned above, that it was wrong for one to hold oneself above others because they don't cheat. Someone also made fun of Carl b/c he claimed to never have wiped.

I'll deal with the second item first; if Carl says he never wiped, good for him. I don't know Carl, but I know people I play with that I believe have never wiped or intentionally played on. (I also know people I've played with who have, but most of them have worked out their integrity issues for the better.)

Now for the first item. I don't wipe and I don't play on. Have I unintentionally removed a hit by crawling or sliding while under fire? It is possible, but when someone yells that they got a hit on me, my response is to ask where, then feel the area. If it feels like a possible fresh hit, or I think I might have felt something there while scrambling for cover (I check my hits after getting into cover and before returning fire if at all possible), then I take their word for it and call out whether I find paint or not. Have I played on after taking a hit that I didn't feel? Yes, but when I find it I leave or apologize later, or do both. (I once had a very confusing situation occur where an opponent was yelling for me to check my "pack" and I thought he was saying "back"; but, it worked out.) The majority of the people I play with play in the same manner, despite not having a ref with us on the woods field normally. None of us "put ourselves above others" because of the way we choose to play, but, we do respect each other and have a little less respect for those we catch cheating. Some might say that is putting ourselves up on a pedestal, but we prefer to think of it as maintaining the integrity of the game by using peer pressure to enforce an expected standard of contact. Those that want to wipe on the woods field are welcome to, but they will eventually not be chosen for teams or acknowledged by most of us out there.

Final note: Do I think the money/prestige involved in tournament paintball justifies the level of "cheating" (for lack of a better word) that occurs? No, but I do acknowledge that is probably the way it will continue to be and everyone who wants to be competitive is going to have to forfeit a little bit of their personal integrity to do so.


Edited by Mack - 26 January 2007 at 4:13pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote usafpilot07 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 January 2007 at 4:57pm
Originally posted by Mack Mack wrote:





Final note: Do I think the money/prestige involved in tournament paintball justifies the level of "cheating" (for lack of a better word) that occurs? No, but I do acknowledge that is probably the way it will continue to be and everyone who wants to be competitive is going to have to forfeit a little bit of their personal integrity to do so.


I think it's wrong to call it a sacrifice of personal integrity.  I don't see it as morally wrong, therefore I am not going against my morals, nor am I doing something that I think is unacceptable.


I would like to point out that many people seem to assume that just because a person wipes, it means they aren't a true player.  As someone who has practiced with Trauma, and all of the Gridlock teams repeatedly, I can promise you even the best ballers in the world(Remember, Trauma were the NXL Champs!) wipe too. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tae Kwon Do Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 January 2007 at 5:49pm
I suppose if you want to do it in high stakes tourney's and what have you, then more power to you.

However, the number two reason [Behind price] I do not play on commercial fields any longer is cheaters.

[And yes, it is cheating. Your football analogy is a false one. The objection of football lies within points, not receptions. The objection of paintball involves shooting someone. Justify it all you want, but it is still cheating, not simply "pass interference." Wiping in paintball, in connection with football, would be something more along the lines of being tackled, getting up, and running a few more yards even after you were down. ]

Any who, If I am just going to play some fun rec games at a field, it is discouraging as hell to see people wipe shots. Even if they are 'non-obvious' or 'lucky' shots, I still hit you, and therefore you are out of the game. Wiping, to me, took all the fun of playing. Now, I was not one of the people that flipped out and screamed at the refs and try to mow down people who did it. After about the third time someone wiped a "non-obvious" in a game I just packed my stuff and went home. I just didn't see the point of still playing. Once you get rid of the "paintball" part of paintball, why even use guns?

Like I said, if you want/need to do it in a tournament, go ahead. I have no problem with it at all because I didn't play tournaments. The problem is the high stakes 'need to cheat' mindset has trickled down to everyday rec play on commercials fields, and it drives away people who enjoy playing a legit game of ball, with the obvious rule that if you are shot, you are out.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote usafpilot07 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 January 2007 at 10:51pm
Originally posted by Tae Kwon Do Tae Kwon Do wrote:



[And yes, it is cheating. Your football analogy is a false one. The objection of football lies within points, not receptions. The objection of paintball involves shooting someone. Justify it all you want, but it is still cheating, not simply "pass interference." Wiping in paintball, in connection with football, would be something more along the lines of being tackled, getting up, and running a few more yards even after you were down. ]


But in PSP and NPPL, eliminations are points... So it's really a middle ground isn't it?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ilford Rule Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 January 2007 at 11:19pm
he said in tournament play he doesnt mind as much.

but IMO, even still, i cant see it as a middle ground. first off, a flag hang gives the team FAR more points then eliminations do. in addition, if you wipe, your causing the other team to not get a point. you aren't putting it off (at least not necessarily). pass interference makes a point harder. wiping gets rid of a point that they SHOULD already have.

I know this somewhat contradicts my earlier statements, but after reading this my mind has been somewhat changed.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shadowminion Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 January 2007 at 2:38am

This has been a very illuminating thread ,,,, and as I see it , there will always be two "Camps" of players ;

Those that play fairly and honor the spirit and intent of paintball , wether it be in tournament or recball .

and

Those that justify cheating based upon whatever "reason" they choose to argue , money , points , prestige . Hell why not , Eh?

Some can and always will be able to claim they arent doing anything wrong by cheating , whether its on the field , their wives , taxes whatever have you . They claim all others have a "Holier than Thou" attitude because they are frowned upon and shunned by the general polulation as outcasts and criminals (at the very least non-conformists !) in what they practice , that practice is called deception as someone already mentioned .

As Tae Kwon Do already said , that practice is relatively rare in recball , not necessarily because of the skill of the "Type" of player that plays recball (I venture to say they are as good on the average as a lot of tournament level players, in fact a lot ARE former tournament players that grew disenchanted by the mindset openly displayed by usafpilot and others of like ilk ), but more the Values and integrity they prefer to be associated with .

I wont necessarily blow my lid when I see a "Wiper" , but I will spread the word among my team and upon confirmation , that person then becomes the most desirable and coveted target upon the field , and yes , I will bonus ball the daylights out of him/her given the opportunity . It seems to deliver a not so subtle message of whats expected , and yes , I WILL aim for tender spots , throat , fingers and ears . They dont like it , and I have even had some directly complain to me that I seemed to be hunting them , I told them I was and told them why .

I believe as long as there will be competitive arenas where cheaters are tolerated , there will be cheaters......

Competition is good , it hones your skills .

cheating is bad , period .

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tae Kwon Do Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 January 2007 at 2:47am
Lets not kid ourselves.

I understand why cheating happens. Pressure.

Cheating happens in every sport, ever. Baseball, Hockey, Football, etc. I understand that they are under the pressure to win, so they cheat.

I understand WHY it happens, it does not mean I like it.

Hey, it comes down to the structure of the game as well, as USAF pointed out. Shooting people out plays second fiddle to moving the flag. Thus is why wiping is not seen as a huge deal.

The problem I have is, that mentality transplants itself into everyday rec play, which makes it annoying for people who want to play a legit game.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote usafpilot07 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 January 2007 at 10:05am
Originally posted by Shadowminion Shadowminion wrote:

This has been a very illuminating thread ,,,, and as I see it , there will always be two "Camps" of players ;

Those that play fairly and honor the spirit and intent of paintball , wether it be in tournament or recball .

and

Those that justify cheating based upon whatever "reason" they choose to argue , money , points , prestige . Hell why not , Eh?

Some can and always will be able to claim they arent doing anything wrong by cheating , whether its on the field , their wives , taxes whatever have you . They claim all others have a "Holier than Thou" attitude because they are frowned upon and shunned by the general polulation as outcasts and criminals (at the very least non-conformists !) in what they practice , that practice is called deception as someone already mentioned .

So by blowing up the positives of not wiping, and then referring to someone that does wipe as someone who will cheat on their wives, taxes, etc. isn't a Holier than Thou attitude? That's inane, and complete bull.  I would and have never cheated on a girl, because I see it as a lost in trust that is shared between two people. Taxes?  I don't even file taxes, but in the end, people are more wealthy when they do their taxes right in the first place.  And what is the point of saying we are frowned upon by the general paintball population?  Last time I went to a pro event, and I've been to plenty, no body was protesting any of the pro players, or throwing rotten vegetables onto the field.


As Tae Kwon Do already said , that practice is relatively rare in recball , not necessarily because of the skill of the "Type" of player that plays recball (I venture to say they are as good on the average as a lot of tournament level players, in fact a lot ARE former tournament players that grew disenchanted by the mindset openly displayed by usafpilot and others of like ilk ), but more the Values and integrity they prefer to be associated with .


I disagree with you.  The majority of recballers who are actually good enough to begin with are picked up by teams. Just because I wipe, doesn't mean I would wipe the field with you.  Do you really think I play D3 Xball just because I'm good at wiping? If so, you really need to rethink your position on what makes a good player.


I wont necessarily blow my lid when I see a "Wiper" , but I will spread the word among my team and upon confirmation , that person then becomes the most desirable and coveted target upon the field , and yes , I will bonus ball the daylights out of him/her given the opportunity . It seems to deliver a not so subtle message of whats expected , and yes , I WILL aim for tender spots , throat , fingers and ears . They dont like it , and I have even had some directly complain to me that I seemed to be hunting them , I told them I was and told them why .


Man, you sound like a total hard ass, I sure hope I never have to play against you.   It's like gatyr said, you assume just because I wipe, you'd have the chance to put extra on me anyways...

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gatyr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 January 2007 at 10:50am
Originally posted by Shadowminion Shadowminion wrote:

I wont necessarily blow my lid when I see a "Wiper" , but I will spread the word among my team and upon confirmation , that person then becomes the most desirable and coveted target upon the field , and yes , I will bonus ball the daylights out of him/her given the opportunity . It seems to deliver a not so subtle message of whats expected , and yes , I WILL aim for tender spots , throat , fingers and ears . They dont like it , and I have even had some directly complain to me that I seemed to be hunting them , I told them I was and told them why .


So in a game of rec-ball, you are going to bonus-ball someone with malicious intent?

Last I checked, thats a 6 month hiatus from playing in the league you were playing in where you did it. Cheating and getting caught only eliminates yourself and 3 other players.

Somehow intentionally causing harm to another player seems worse than depriving someone of an elimination.

That may just be me, though.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Skillet42565 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 January 2007 at 10:55am
I agree with Gatyr on this.  How is bonus balling and less of a bad thing than wiping?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote usafpilot07 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 January 2007 at 2:13pm
BUT GUYS, YOU CAN'T BONUS BALL YOUR WIFE OR YOUR TAXES!!!

WIPING IS TEH W0R5T S!N EV4RRR
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tallen702 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 January 2007 at 3:17pm
Originally posted by usafpilot07 usafpilot07 wrote:

BUT GUYS, YOU CAN'T BONUS BALL YOUR WIFE...

Speak for yourself....

Lets face it, if you've got the guy nailed in a speedball game, there are going to be more than enough hits that they're gonna be out, no questions asked. Wiping one ball? Sure, it'd be easy. Wiping 5? Not so easy. It isn't as if Gatyr and USAF are saying that they wipe every single shot that hits them. And while I still disagree with the practice, I can see their point of view. I'd still love to play against you guys for the fun of it (and for the experience as I've been out of the tournament series for a bit). I'm sure you're both excellent players, but the wiping bit does lower my opinion a bit. Now, playing on with an un-obvious? That happens all the time.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shadowminion Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 January 2007 at 3:27pm

when somebody wipes , they deprive me of a legitimate elimination I've scored on them , there fore , I put as many on them as I can... IF and only if I have confirmation its deliberate .

I never said bonus balling is harmless or even the politically correct thing to do . I play renegade ball mostly and have never had to practice this on a renegade field , but on organised pay fields I have done this .

Maybe equating a bonus ball on a wiper as insurance is a bad thing (Yeah , right) , you wipe , you get bonus balled , seems a fair trade since you choose not to recognise a legitimate hit in the first place , NUFF SAID .

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gatyr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 January 2007 at 3:41pm
Originally posted by Shadowminion Shadowminion wrote:

when somebody wipes , they deprive me of a legitimate elimination I've scored on them , there fore , I put as many on them as I can... IF and only if I have confirmation its deliberate .

I never said bonus balling is harmless or even the politically correct thing to do . I play renegade ball mostly and have never had to practice this on a renegade field , but on organised pay fields I have done this .

Maybe equating a bonus ball on a wiper as insurance is a bad thing (Yeah , right) , you wipe , you get bonus balled , seems a fair trade since you choose not to recognise a legitimate hit in the first place , NUFF SAID .



Cheaters > those who cause intentional harm to others. No other way around it.

Using football for another analogy, who would you think less of:

the lineman that held the defender to prevent the QB from getting hit

or

the defender that caused harm in some fashion to a lineman because he broke the rules?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tallen702 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 January 2007 at 7:07pm
The only time I've ever intentionally bonus balled someone is if they're walking 'off' the field but have their arm-band on. Gotta make sure......

Edited by tallen702 - 27 January 2007 at 7:07pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tae Kwon Do Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 January 2007 at 7:25pm
Originally posted by Gatyr Gatyr wrote:



Cheaters > those who cause intentional harm to others.


Agreed. However, neither should be done.

I think if the people in charge of "pro" leagues started watching for/busting more/having harsher penalties for cheating, more people would take it more seriously.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 January 2007 at 10:00pm
Bonus balling vs. wiping; tough question.
  • Wiping = removing a legitimate hit and continuing to play after one should have left the field.
  • Bonus balling
    • Scenario one-intentionally shooting someone who has indicated they are out and is in the process of trying to depart the field.
    • Scenario two-replacing the paint on an already eliminated opponent that said opponent illegally removed through wiping so that he/she could remain in play. (This scenario includes continuing to shoot until opponent is forced to acknowledge the elimination or is called out by officials due to he/she wearing more paint than they can easily wipe away.)
I'm not sure everyone is defining bonus balling the same way. I consider scenario one to be bonus balling and unacceptable under any circumstances. The second scenario I consider to be a legitimate tactic used in response to wiping on the field.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rednekk98 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 January 2007 at 10:20pm

Saying bonus balling people is worse than wiping is retarded. Wiping encourages bonus balling, plain and simple.

The last time I got bonus balled was when I was hit somewhere I couldn't see, was told the location by the player who shot me, then dabbed my fingers in it to see if there was paint there. It looked like a wipe to him, I got turned orange. Believe me, i was more pissed at the wiper who pissed that guy off last time than I was at the over shooter.

I have never intentionally wiped. I only play rec, what's the point? If I were too lazy to walk back to the dead box I shouldn't be playing. I can see how the structure of tourney ball encourages it, and I dislike it, but for godsake drop that when you play recball.

If you're going to wipe you might as well just throw down your guns and fight for the flag. All you're doing is hurting each other if the hits dont count.

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