Ouchies!

Styro Folme wrote: when i played tournies, i couldn't feel the hits...  unless i got bunkered...in which, i had a paintball rip my shirt...  i think they where shooting a little hot.  however, i have never cheated.  if i catch someone cheating, i will make the rest of their day miserable.

Haha, I love that stupid vigilante attitude on the field.  Let someone try and dole out their own punishment on me, it will be war.  And you don't want to play dirty with me, because that is probably the only thing that pisses me off concerning paintball.  If I seriously know that someone is TRYING to HURT me, they better hope to God that they stay in the game longer than I do...*


*I am in no way trying to sound like a badass... There's just no real way of explaining how I feel about people trying to take the "law" into their own hands without a little bit of e-badass leaking in.



As for the cheating thing, Gatyr is better about explaining it.

The pain is the best part about paintball, its the knowing that you might feel pain the next second just gets your adrenaline flowing.  Isnt that the point of paintball?  If there was no pain people would be running everywhere and not actually trying.  It would be like laser tag, which can be fun but there aint no adrenaline. 

Styro Folme wrote: usafpilot07 wrote: Styro Folme wrote: when i played tournies, i couldn't feel the hits...  unless i got bunkered...in which, i had a paintball rip my shirt...  i think they where shooting a little hot.  however, i have never cheated.  if i catch someone cheating, i will make the rest of their day miserable.  Haha, I love that stupid vigilante attitude on the field.  Let someone try and dole out their own punishment on me, it will be war.  And you don't want to play dirty with me, because that is probably the only thing that pisses me off concerning paintball.  If I seriously know that someone is TRYING to HURT me, they better hope to God that they stay in the game longer than I do...* *I am in no way trying to sound like a badass... There's just no real way of explaining how I feel about people trying to take the "law" into their own hands without a little bit of e-badass leaking in. As for the cheating thing, Gatyr is better about explaining it. i'm mostly talking about playing with friends...  in which case, i have no problem bonus balling them.  however, if some tourny guy doesn't call himself out with an obvious hit, i will say something about it to the ref.  although i don't beleive in hunting for people, if i get the opportunity, i might land a bonus ball on him .  the only reason i got out of paintball is because i'm tired of how people accept cheating as "part of the game".  Last time i asked someone why they cheat they simply said "i only wipe if they get lucky"...  which would completely throw off the whole appeal of the game.  The main fun of the game is never knowing just how something is going to turn out...  and including luck as part of the game.  I can kinda see wiping in major tournies....  but on the rec ball field...  that's low.

Ya i agree with what u mean by being "part of paintball". I mean, even in the video game greg hastings, there is the ability to cheat, and its easy to do also which makes cheating seem like something that should totally be happening on the real field

the pain has never bothered me.

usafpilot07 wrote: Styro Folme wrote: when i played tournies, i couldn't feel the hits...  unless i got bunkered...in which, i had a paintball rip my shirt...  i think they where shooting a little hot.  however, i have never cheated.  if i catch someone cheating, i will make the rest of their day miserable.  Haha, I love that stupid vigilante attitude on the field.  Let someone try and dole out their own punishment on me, it will be war.  And you don't want to play dirty with me, because that is probably the only thing that pisses me off concerning paintball.  If I seriously know that someone is TRYING to HURT me, they better hope to God that they stay in the game longer than I do...* *I am in no way trying to sound like a badass... There's just no real way of explaining how I feel about people trying to take the "law" into their own hands without a little bit of e-badass leaking in. As for the cheating thing, Gatyr is better about explaining it.

Wow, this post brings up a multitude of interesting considerations concerning the attitudes that speedball and woodsball players have towards each other. While I can't truely speak from the speedball point of view (having only played in a few pick-up games) I have sufficient woodsball experience to speak from the point of view of the average recreational player.


I realize that it is a sad but true fact that cheating such as wiping and playing on have become a necessary part of tournament paintball. The way the game is played, governed, and officiated today make this an inescapable fact. It is also one of the reasons that many woods/recreational players denigrate the skills of the "professional" players. The common player, upon seeing the blatant cheating at the professional level, equates it with the behavior of the lesser skilled woods/rec players they know of who resort to similar tactics in order to remain competitive. Since the woods/recreational player does not take the different environment (tournament speedball as opposed to rec/woods-ball) into account, the "professionals" are not viewed as skilled players who must "cheat" to remain competitive, but as unskilled noobs who are only competitive because they cheat.

This difference in game environments also explains why many woods-ballers view speedballers (at all levels) as poor shots who rely on accuracy by volume as opposed to shooting skills. Most rec/woods-players, being on a budget, try to make every shot count for something and eventually develop the skills to do so. When they compare their shot-to-elimination ration to that of the speedball players, and theirs is better, they again fail to take into account the environment and determine that they (rec/woods-ballers) are better players. What the these guys fail to take into account is the value difference of terrain in each game: On the smaller, carefully designed, speedball field each piece of cover or yard of advance gained is worth more (by providing more advantage) than similar gains on a larger woodsball course filled with natural cover and concealment. Thusly, each piece of terrain is fought for, or defended, that much harder, with much more paint.

I find it amusing that we rec-ballers tend to make fun of the "spray-and-pray" of speedball since the same tactic is used in rec-ball, although not to the same extent. The difference is that we call it suppressive fire or cover fire, but when we want it, we want a lot of it. On that note, as a woods-ball player, I should point out that when I'm advancing on a defended postion, I prefer my cover fire to come from someone with speedball experience as opposed to someone who has only played woods (unless the woods player is very experienced.)

Another reason for the attitude that woods players have towards speedball players as lessor players has to do with the behavior of speedball players in a woods environment. It also has to do with the fact that many people don't consider how they would feel as the "fish out of water" if the situation were reversed. The majority of the speedballers I've seen playing woodsball tend to stick to the open fields as opposed to going into the thick stuff and this is interpreted as being a sign of fear. I've always considered this to be an unfair assumption: I don't normally play in the open unless I have to, but this is because I believe in playing to my strengths, not because I am afraid. The speedball players in the woods are just doing the same thing. Additionally, I've noticed a lot more speedballers willing to go play on woods fields around here than the other way around. It could be that woods play is mostly what is available, but it could also be an unwillingness of many woods-players to try something different.

There are advantages to playing both games. While I don't like speedball, I play a few games because it helps me improve my snap-shooting skills (which really need improvement), my ability to utilize cover effectively (tucking-in becomes much more important when everyone knows where you're at) and my use of angles (as opposed to just sneaky back-shooting) to get eliminations. I believe that speedball also helps young players improve their teamwork and field communication skills faster than straight woodsball play does. On the other side of the coin, I've had several of the locally sponsored speedball players mention that they like woodsball because not knowing where everyone is at the start improves their situational awareness (my words, their thoughts).

The biggest problem between the different player types; speedballers, woodsballers, and recreational players who do both, comes when the different types intermix on the same field.

• Even if I were younger and heathier, I would not play any speedball other than the pick-up games I do now. I try to play a fair game and do not want to play in a situation where I would have to cheat to be competitive. That said, if I, or any other player decides to play at the professional level, then we have no right to complain about the overall type of play that occurs their. At certain levels of the speedball game, that is just (unfortunately) the way it is.
• If "professional" speedballers intermingle with recreational speedballers, then the "pros" should be expected to win without cheating. If they cheat to beat walk-ons, they are ruining the game for new players and must be pretty lame players themselves to have to win that way.
• When any players are on a woodsball field they should treat the game with the respect it deserves as the hallowed birthplace of paintball. Woodsball, by definition, is more of an honor game than speedball just because of the scarcity of refs and the larger terrain to be covered. I can't speak for all fields, but at places I've played, I've seen known cheaters overshot intentionally, called out by name when caught wiping or not picked by either team for a game. (Edited Note: Once, I saw an especially annoying wiper go on the field despite his team not wanting him. Word was passed that everyone on both teams could/would shoot at him and no one had to count hits from him. He got the point, and is now one of our better, and more honorable, players.)
  

USAFpilot made a statement above regarding getting pissed about people playing dirty with him in retaliation for his cheating, this brings me to my first question which is for USAF specifically.

• Isn't it somewhat hypocrtitiocal to cheat, then get mad when someone essentially does it back to you?

My other questions are for speedballers in general.

• Does anyone have any thoughts on the speedball vs. woodsball attitudes I mentioned above, but from the speedballer perspective?
• I accept that cheating is necessary at almost any level of tournement play, but am curious about several things.
• How many tourney players also play rec/woods?
• Do you cheat in these situations against walk-on players?
• In tournement play, are you happy with the current level of reffing/rule enforcement or would changes (such as intensive video recording and after game reviews) which drastically reduced the level of wiping/playing on make you happier?
  

Edited by Mack - 20 January 2007 at 2:17pm

First off, thank you for putting so much time and effort into your post. It is quite obvious that you worked hard to make it a well thought out expose on your opinions of the matter, and it makes everything easier for everyone. Sorry it took me so long to reply, I've been out of town, and am sitting in an airport in Florida as we speak.

Mack wrote: USAFpilot made a statement above regarding getting pissed about people playing dirty with him in retaliation for his cheating, this brings me to my first question which is for USAF specifically. Isn't it somewhat hypocrtitiocal to cheat, then get mad when someone essentially does it back to you?     I think that we are probably looking at this from a much different point of view on the word "punishment."  I have absolutely no problem with catching a few extra balls on the way to the deadbox, but I think this is where our thoughts on the subject split apart.     Our ideas of "bonus balling" are probably quite different. I play X-ball, and am used to be bunkered at 15bps full auto and then walking back through the lanes to the dead box.  On the other hand, I would assume that to you, 3 or 4 extra balls on the way out would be bonus balling.      What makes me mad is when a player exhibits "malicious intent" on the field.  It is very easy to tell the difference between throwing a few extra towards someone and laying a rope at their heads.  I've seen it done as a ref, and I've experienced it as a player.(And a ref once too, but I'm not positive it was intentional.) My other questions are for speedballers in general.               I accept that cheating is necessary at almost any level of tournement play, but am curious about several things. How many tourney players also play rec/woods?                       I don't really play in the woods any more, simply because at all of the fields I play at, there isn't any "competition" even when I step onto the woodsball fields. I'm sure that this could be different at other fields, just not the ones I go to.  I do occasionally play on our castle/city thing, but that's usually only after the day of play is over and I'm burning the rest of my paint. Do you cheat in these situations against walk-on players?                    Again, at the fields I play at even the "walk-ons" aren't what most people would consider rec-ballers.  Almost all of our regulars(for speedball at least) play tournaments, or would if they could afford it.  I do occasionally "cheat," during "recball," though I don't like the term "cheating" when it comes to whiping because I see it more as something along the lines of Holding, or Pass Interference in football. In tournement play, are you happy with the current level of reffing/rule enforcement or would changes (such as intensive video recording and after game reviews) which drastically reduced the level of wiping/playing on make you happier?                 After game reviews will never work in tournament paintball,  mainly because, even if a call is wrong, there isn't anything you can do about it.*  I don't think whiping or playing on is too bad, and I like the flag systems that most major tournament series have in place.  I think at this point in the game at least, the way the game is played won't change TOO MUCH for at least a little while.                  This isn't really what you asked, but what I would like to see is a greater unification of the major leagues.  It is ridiculous to have the PSP, the NPPL,  and PSP Xball, all of which have at least 3 semi-pro leagues.  I think it's about time that market research is done to the potential viewing audience to see what will work out best in the end, and start shifting the tides that way. *An obvious thing like the finals in San Diego concerning Dynasty and Joy would have to be an acception.  Even after the suspensions were overturned and it was determined that Joy should have won, Dynasty kept the First Place points from the Event, costing XSV first place overall for the NPPL season.

wiping = cheating = lame

netramakin wrote: wiping = cheating = lame

Why don't you go more in depth into your argument than posting a weak attempt at making yourself look like a saint.

Let me ask you this, do you think that every football player that commits pass interference is a cheater?  Because the way I see it, it's the same thing.  Pass interference is NOT always unintentional, and I would know, seeing as how I play defensive back.  It's accounted for in the rules, i.e. Minor, Major, penalties, and referees throw flags for the penalties just the same.  Please bring something to the conversation if you have something to add.

In my opinion, in speedball wiping is not so much cheating as it is a strategy. You take the risk of wiping and if caught by a ref you are called out, and in many cases an additional penalty is given to your team. To me its always seemed just like getting hit, where you took the chance of sticking out some body part for whatever reason, and the paint hit you resulting in you being out.

with that in mind, I do think its sad that wiping has become as common as it is, mainly because of the frustration it causes for other. but thats how it is, and people learn to use it to their advantage. even if its wrong, it's how things are.

Now I dont play speedball, and I think in the woods wiping/playing on is cheating in the highest degree, because A) its harder for the ref to see you or catch you and B) its easier to conceal a hit/wipe in the woods, by wiping with dirt, lying down with the paint below you, etc.

finally, in response to tallen702; I actually have never played on or wiped (to my knowledge at least). no joke. mainly because of how furious i get at people who do it to me. Now, that being said, if theres some guy with, say, and ego playing in the renter only games and playing on, bonus balling, etc, then when i see him next, I take absolutely no shame in sneaking in a few extra balls on him on his way out.

rofl... i see just as much, if not more cheating at big games and scenarios compared to some of the tournies i've been to.