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Fin-Stabilization and Hopper Loading

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    Posted: 17 November 2006 at 8:12am

So, I did some looking around beforehand, and I noticed that there has been some talk about PB rifling and such, and the usual flamespray of anyone who tries to do so seriously. A couple have brought up the FN303 as the reasonable baseline for why there might actually be a market for such rounds. With that said, I am embarking on a project to bring about ability to load markers with fin-stabilised rounds. As it seems that there is more of a "put up or shut up" metality here, I will endeavor to provide working details and photos for your continued enjoyment. If you would like to give comments or advice, that would be awesome, but please keep the ad hominem attacks elsewhere.

Should one figure out how to reliably load a round repeatably, in semi-auto, possibly with an insert that would enable the marke to still fire a regular ball when needed, I think the stumbling block would be removed from actually using fin stabilized rounds for, at least, woodsball and scenario, if not elsewhere.

Magazine and Feed Elbow:

 

Magazine and Feed Elbow

Magazine Internals

 

Magazine Internals and Feed Elbow:

Feed Elbow and Magazine Internals

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote i type slow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 November 2006 at 11:37am
how does it connect to the gun?
^^correct me if im wrong^^

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clark Kent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 November 2006 at 12:13pm
Excellent first post.  Welcome to the forum.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Innkeeper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 November 2006 at 2:00pm

Originally posted by i type slow i type slow wrote:

how does it connect to the gun?

I am using a 98C feed elbow, as shown, to attach it to a 98 Custom, once the correct tooling is done to the marker. I chose this as a good starting point to prototype my work. Actually, any marker with a detachable feed would work (SIM-4). 98C is just the cheapest/easiest to work with at this point.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote carl_the_sniper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 November 2006 at 5:10pm

what is the magazing made from?

love it so far bty

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Monk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 November 2006 at 6:52pm
I could see this being used under the gun. like a cyclone turned on its side. Otherwise wouldnt the fins end up in the wrong position?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Connmann Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 November 2006 at 10:44pm
I love the idea! have no idea how to make it fuctional. But I love the idea!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Innkeeper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 November 2006 at 1:04am
Originally posted by carl_the_sniper carl_the_sniper wrote:

what is the magazing made from?

love it so far bty

Smartalleck answer: Plastic

Honest answer: Probably some type of polyethylene for the internals and a brittle acrylic wannabe for the cover.

I am in communication with the manufacturer, discussing materials. For some reason, companies get all wierded out when you tinker with their products...

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Innkeeper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 November 2006 at 1:09am

Originally posted by Monk Monk wrote:

I could see this being used under the gun. like a cyclone turned on its side. Otherwise wouldnt the fins end up in the wrong position?

On the FN303 it is mounted under the gun, sliding up a set of rails, locking into place with the round in line with the bolt. The idea here, since I am not wanting a 303 redux, and it will be rather hard to retrofit markers to that point, is to make a removable magazine mount/feed tube that can be swapped out with a regular elbow (or is still compatible with regular hoppers). 

They way I have this planned out, each round will be fed into the tube already facing the correct direction, and will have some spring tension behind it to keep it facing that was as they move down the elbow. The elbow will have some plastic machined out in the form of grooves, or a flattened aft end, to keep them faced.

I want there to be as little machining as needed on each marker, because it would be far better for them to be able to use both types of ammunition, than just one or the other. 

If I can snag some of the old 303 rounds that they have laying around, I will try to get some pics up to show some relationships.



Edited by The Innkeeper - 18 November 2006 at 1:14am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote carl_the_sniper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 November 2006 at 9:58am

no i meant what was the magazine origionally?

 

could you make a thompson style mag? drum mag?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Innkeeper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 November 2006 at 5:02pm

That could be a possibility. Probably most feasable. I am just looking at getting the concept down first.

The magazine is an old FN303 magazine. We have them for less-than-lethal use of force. Rather remarkable tools, if a bit over-engineered. But, then again, the military is using it.  

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PACMAN28 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 November 2006 at 5:54pm

definatley possible but could take some work

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote carl_the_sniper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 November 2006 at 11:28pm
cool
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rednekk98 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 November 2006 at 1:50pm

The feed system is interesting, but what about the ammunition itself? There used to be fin-stabilized ammunition, you could stick a stabilizer on the back of a normal paintball and load it single-shot, but they were discontinued since they took forever to load and had a tendancy for cutting people when they were hit. I'm not certain what era of paintball this was, but it it was back in the days of shop-goggles, I guess the getting cut problem isn't an issue anymore.

It would almost make more sense to manufacture a seperate loading device connected to the barrel, so you could cut off feeding from the hopper, clear the weapon, then fire several more accurate shots when extra range is needed, then switch back.



Edited by rednekk98 - 22 November 2006 at 1:53pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SSOK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 November 2006 at 3:30pm
Very creative. However, I would just mill out a 98c where the grip out, and have a magazine in there. However, you would need to re-locate the ball latch and you could never use a hopper again.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cmts58 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 November 2006 at 1:34am
the fins would cut people
tippmann 98c
dop pro seal
expansion chamber
vertical adapter
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote usafpilot07 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 November 2006 at 8:20am
On the point of a Magazine, it seems like that would be much more feasible as to ensuring that the "round" fits into the breach correct each time. If I get a chance, I'll sketch it up in MS_P later.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cmts58 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 November 2006 at 1:37pm
does anybody realize...this is a paintball.refs are not going to allow ANYTHING like this.ever.anything that has the mass to be affected by fins is way to dangerous to shoot at people...
tippmann 98c
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brihard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 November 2006 at 5:39pm
Originally posted by cmts58 cmts58 wrote:

does anybody realize...this is a paintball.refs are not going to allow ANYTHING like this.ever.anything that has the mass to be affected by fins is way to dangerous to shoot at people...


Utterly incorrect. Paintballs already have more than enough mass to be affected by fins
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Innkeeper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 November 2006 at 7:12pm
Originally posted by rednekk98 rednekk98 wrote:

The feed system is interesting, but what about the ammunition itself? There used to be fin-stabilized ammunition, you could stick a stabilizer on the back of a normal paintball and load it single-shot, but they were discontinued since they took forever to load and had a tendancy for cutting people when they were hit. I'm not certain what era of paintball this was, but it it was back in the days of shop-goggles, I guess the getting cut problem isn't an issue anymore.

It would almost make more sense to manufacture a seperate loading device connected to the barrel, so you could cut off feeding from the hopper, clear the weapon, then fire several more accurate shots when extra range is needed, then switch back.

The ammunition itself might not be that big of a problem. There is already tooling availble for fin-stable rounds, but it needs to be tuned for making gelatin-type ammunition, not polystyrene. I am not really trying anything radical, just the (to me) easiest way to get the parts to work together.

You are on to something with the quick switch idea. That is why I decided to use the 98C, because the feed elbow is readily detachable, and can be replace fairly quickly with a standard elbow if needed.

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