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Fin-Stabilization and Hopper Loading

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cmts58 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 November 2006 at 6:50pm
fin stabilization and rifling are totally different unless spiraled fins...straight or spiraled?maybe interlocking notches by the barrel and projectile,that would impart exactly the amount of spin desired 

Edited by cmts58 - 24 November 2006 at 6:54pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Innkeeper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 November 2006 at 6:55pm

Slanted.

I am not dealing with any type of rifling. That is beyond the scope of this project.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Innkeeper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 November 2006 at 7:00pm
Hm. Your edit added an intruiging idea, but at this point I am not looking into dealing with anything past the breech. All I have seen the 303 ammunition (it's a daily basis thing out here), the fins do not protrude further than the OD of the PB. To have the interlocking type of system you are thinking about would require either the fin protrusions, or the PB to be notched, as you said. Something to put on the back burner, for me, to think about.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cmts58 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 November 2006 at 7:22pm
i think you have a good idea,its just is this going to be a special purpose paint?like for tanks or bunkers?sniper assassinations?i just dont know about the manufacturing process.currently,a paintball is two identical shell halves fused together with fill inside.the manufacturing of your rounds would be exceedingly expensive for all purpose paint.but imagine a sabot to launch an fbomb bigboy 150 feet out of a custom launcher,and this sabotwould have interlocking notches between itself and the barrel,imparting either spin,or if it would be more accurate,designed to prevent any spin,and exactly what effect do the fins on the fn303 projectile cause?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Innkeeper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 November 2006 at 7:31pm

Special purpose paint? Yes. More expensive? Yes, probably. I am researching the process to see how I can make this feasable.

The fins cause the round to rotate, or "spin", while traveling thru the air, imparting rotational stabilization on the projectile. The round is accurate, from my own first-hand accounts.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cmts58 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 November 2006 at 7:42pm

how heavy would the projectile be without the bismuth?could we just use a tweaked version of teh fn round?but im not sure gelatin is the answer.maybe a extremly soft rubber?and are you planning on .68 cal?if you take out the bismuth,it may be like wise to a paintball impact.could you do me a favor?take a round ,remove bismuth payload,and fire into medium.repeat with standard paintball from same distance.record damage.then if that is feasible,we can use the exact design,just construct the round out of a different material.

FN 303 Projectile- Indelible Yellow Paint, 150/Box
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Edited by cmts58 - 24 November 2006 at 7:48pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Innkeeper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 November 2006 at 3:39am

Originally posted by cmts58 cmts58 wrote:

does anybody realize...this is a paintball.refs are not going to allow ANYTHING like this.ever.anything that has the mass to be affected by fins is way to dangerous to shoot at people...

Look, man, I am not trying to bring LTL, or any part of it, into PB. Also, what you are wanting to do would do us no good from the insurance standpoint. Everything is designed around gelatin shells with polyethylene fill. Any deviation from that, and this idea is DOA.

No LTL. 

At this point, it also appears that you are talking out of both sides of your mouth on the issue. I am strictly trying to bring in availible technology, adapted for safe everyday PB use, within the boundaries of the game. If we start walking outside of that ideal, it aint gonna work.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DeTrevni Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 November 2006 at 3:48am
Originally posted by The Innkeeper The Innkeeper wrote:

Originally posted by DeTrevni DeTrevni wrote:

While this is by far the most successful "fin stabilization" thead I've seen in a while, I would like to point out to participating forumers, ther is an "edit" button.

 

Yup, there sure is.

Sorry. I couldn't help myself.

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Edited by DeTrevni - 25 November 2006 at 3:49am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cmts58 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 November 2006 at 3:52am
is the fn round any more accuate than a standard paintball?a high quality paintball,out of a high quality barrel,of course
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Innkeeper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 November 2006 at 5:25pm

"the military came to us and wanted a more accurate non lethal system we made a bullet shaped, spin stabilized paintball that far outperformed any equal weight round projectile. "

This quote comes from a reputable source.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Innkeeper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 November 2006 at 5:29pm
Originally posted by DeTrevni DeTrevni wrote:

Originally posted by The Innkeeper The Innkeeper wrote:

Originally posted by DeTrevni DeTrevni wrote:

While this is by far the most successful "fin stabilization" thead I've seen in a while, I would like to point out to participating forumers, ther is an "edit" button.

 

Yup, there sure is.

Sorry. I couldn't help myself.

/End spelling-Naziing....

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Being anal is actually useful, every now and then...

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cmts58 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 November 2006 at 9:45pm
is the carrier designed to break apart on impact?i believe it is..im just wondering what the impact would be from the round without the bismuth forward payload
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Innkeeper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 November 2006 at 12:52am

What carrier?

The impact should be that of any other PB.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cmts58 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 November 2006 at 12:57am


A true compromise between accuracy, efficiency and safety

     

    Projectiles

    The projectiles have been designed especially to break up on impact, eliminating risks of penetrating injuries. Thanks to their fin stabilized design, the projectiles have an effective range of 50m with a much higher hit probability than any other similar product.

    The primary effect is trauma : the shock (15J/cm³) directly neutralizes the aggressor. Secondary effects will be delivered by a chemical payload chosen according to the mission requirements

    All .68" projectiles have a 8.5g weight, a polystyrene body and a granular non-toxic bismuth forward payload



    Edited by cmts58 - 26 November 2006 at 12:58am
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    Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cmts58 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 November 2006 at 12:58am

     

    The projectiles have been designed especially to break up on impact,

     eliminating risks of penetrating injuries.

    Thanks to their fin stabilized design, the projectiles have an effective range

     of 50m with a much higher hit probability than any other similar product.

    The primary effect is trauma : the shock (15J/cm³) directly neutralizes the

     aggressor. Secondary effects will be delivered by a chemical payload

    chosen according to the mission requirements

    All .68" projectiles have a 8.5g weight,

    a polystyrene body and a granular non-toxic bismuth forward payload

     

    had a problem..sorry



    Edited by cmts58 - 26 November 2006 at 1:00am
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    Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cmts58 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 November 2006 at 1:01am
    having techincal difficulities...i apoligize
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    Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cmts58 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 November 2006 at 1:04am
    The projectiles have been designed especially to break up on impact, eliminating risks of penetrating injuries. Thanks to their fin stabilized design, the projectiles have an effective range of 50m with a much higher hit probability than any other similar product.

    The primary effect is trauma : the shock (15J/cm³) directly neutralizes the aggressor. Secondary effects will be delivered by a chemical payload chosen according to the mission requirements

    All .68" projectiles have a 8.5g weight, a polystyrene body and a granular non-toxic bismuth forward payload

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    Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Innkeeper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 November 2006 at 2:27pm

    Why do you keep going on about LTL?

    The only thing that the new rounds would have in common with the 303 LTL is their shape. That's it. Any other comparison is unjustifiable.

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    Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cmts58 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 November 2006 at 4:13pm

    the impact as is,isnt excessively(about 250%) that of a paintball.to acheive the impact trauma,fn uses a bismuth forward payload in a polystyrene body.the bismuth gives the round most of its mass.and therefore trauma.i believe that a round with the bismuth removed,will not be that much more than a pb.what i was thinking was a polystyrene cylinder,which the fins will be made of,topped with a stiff gelatin dome,filled with paint.you will still have the range and accuracy.just not the traumatic impact of the LTL round.

     

    p.s.    and,just so you know,alot of our officers say "f it" to the speciaized LTL equipment.we have officers armed with standard paintball markers.one of our privates brings his ion everyday.and we have used that ion numerous times to incapacitate drunken aggressors.im not saying use LTL to play paintball.just use the technology.as you are,with the shape.and maybe more.your job as the researcher,is to keep an open mind. 



    Edited by cmts58 - 26 November 2006 at 4:23pm
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    Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Innkeeper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 November 2006 at 4:39pm

    Ok.

    Now that the topic has come back around, let's go forward:

    What the impact stresses from a LTL round are is irrelevant. The round will be produced using contemporary PB manufacturing techniques, using standard shell and fill. The only difference would be the shape. While what you are saying might have the merit of not having to worry about shaping warm gelatin into right angles, I do not think that it would be possible to get any type of plastic into a PB round and still have it be allowed into regulation play.

    I had an idea initially of using discarded 303 rounds (they get broken in day to day handling over here) as test rounds once the prototype hopper was finished. I need to get a gram scale to make sure the weight was as close to a PB round as possible, and then check the flight characteristics.

    One issue with what you are putting forward is that the breaking strain of the polystyrene would have to match that of the shell, otherwise the gelatin would break on impact, but leave the poly intact, with possible injurious consequences.

    BTW, 250% is a lot. Let's ramp the markers to shoot at 750 FPS, and see how many rounds people feel like stepping in front of. I, for one, will pass.

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