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Fin-Stabilization and Hopper Loading

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote barn_user Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 December 2006 at 9:12pm
I say heck with the fin'd round and stick with regular paintballs. It looks like a great idea is working our nicely for you.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Innkeeper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 December 2006 at 9:22pm

Any marker that has a removable feed will be the easiest to continue the modification. I have not looked at any non-detachable feed markers as of yet.

With what I am working with, parts wise, on hand, the feed elbow is needed. My location and availibility of tools parts and, materials is leading directly to the "fuzziness" in a lot of what I am doing right now. Once I get back to the States, things will be a lot easier to figure out. Unless y'all feel nice enough to send me some tools in a care package...

For it to go directly into the marker would either plant the mag directly on top of the barrel, or turn the marker into a bastardized version of the FN303.

The mag sticks out with the same approximate surface area as a standard hopper. Our ammunition has to have a place to go, hopper, magazine or tube. This is the simplest proof of concept that I think has the best chance of an actual production run. Of course there is always more than one way to skin a cat. This is the method I have chosen to follow, and, until disproven by failure, I will follow it until the idea comes to fruition. If nobody uses it after that, it's all good, but I will have satisfied myself in having accomplished it.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cmts58 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 December 2006 at 3:24pm
is thier any way to mount it sideways?so you dont have that big target?
tippmann 98c
dop pro seal
expansion chamber
vertical adapter
dop double trigger
cyclone feed
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Innkeeper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 December 2006 at 4:58pm

"That big target" is goign to be a relative term. If I mount it the way shown, there is a target fairly similar in size to a normal hopper sitting there.

I mount it in line with the barrel, and the mag is a large target from another angle. I can do it, and I think it would be amusing to do so. I would have to mill out the spokes so that the rounds sit in line with how they will be chambered. Not hard, basically just an exercise in spatial relationships.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Innkeeper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 December 2006 at 5:48pm

Got a clip. Going to start trimming the feed elbow down so when I cut the clip and glue it, all of the pieces line up where they are supposed to. I dont think this exact clip will work, though. The guide on the short side is too wide, and does not offer the correct positioning support it's supposed to. But, it will work, for now, for positioning.

Clip side:

 

Clip Short:

Basic Fit:

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Innkeeper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 December 2006 at 7:41pm

One step closer.

I have tooled away most of the upper hopper feed to allow for the attachement of the slide clip. I thought it would be better to keep the clip in one piece vice cutting it in half and attaching the halves separately. There would have been too much room for error. This way the slide stops will be aligned, regardless of final position, and will provide more support and a better set of refernce points for anything that I do from this point.

 

Rough fit:

 

Tooled hopper feed elbow. Yes, I know it looks like crap:

 

Mostly final rough fit:

 

I still have to smooth some rough spots out. Time to break out the trusty Gerber and while away some of those hours on watch... A couple more weeks, and this part should be done.

Now, if i could just find a marker...



Edited by The Innkeeper - 08 December 2006 at 7:52pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote carl_the_sniper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 December 2006 at 2:20am
a question... how do the intenals of the mag spin?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Innkeeper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 December 2006 at 5:14pm
Coiled metal spring.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote carl_the_sniper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 December 2006 at 12:20am
another, how do they know to spin?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Innkeeper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 December 2006 at 1:27am
Depends on which way the metal is coiled. There are some internal finse on the spoked wheel. Wrap it one way it spins clockwise; the other way, counterclockwise.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Innkeeper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 December 2006 at 6:31pm

Feed elbow is complete. I will be testing it at work tomorrow for opcheck.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Questions, comments and constructive criticisms are always welcome.

On to the marker... if I can get my hands on one out here....

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lilsully4 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 December 2006 at 8:34pm
Wow that looks nice!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Snick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 December 2006 at 6:29pm

^^^^ agreed, it looks rather nice. and after actually looking at the size of it attached to the feed elbow, it really isnt much more of a target than a regular hopper.

nice work. now you just need the 98.
really the 98 shouldnt need much done except the back of the feed slot flattened so the fins will fit in.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Innkeeper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 December 2006 at 6:45pm

Thank you.

 

That's what I plan. It shouldn't take me more than an hour, tops, to do that.

Getting the 98C HERE is going to be the hard part...

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 December 2006 at 3:08am
Looks good. One problem you may run into in testing (down the road a ways) is that paint ammo could perform differently than the non-lethal ammo the FN 303 uses. I've researched the FN rounds and if I understood correctly what I read, the non-lethal rounds use a solid granular substance in the front of the round for impact shock value. (Anyway, I think that's what they meant when they described a "bismuth forward payload", and the pictures looked like the crystalline form as opposed to a liquid suspension.) As you touched on earlier in this thread, removing that and replacing it with paint, or just designing a paintball with fins would reduce the weight of the finned projectiles to within acceptable safety parameters. However, one of the problems that the makers of rifled paintball barrels ran into a few years ago is that putting spin on paintballs creates an instability because the outer shell would spin at one rate while the fill would spin slower, or not at all (or so they theorized based on tests and slow motion camera work.)

There was some extensive testing done on this quite a few years back, and the conclusion was reached that the rifled barrels that did work, worked not because they spun the paintballs, but because the rifled surface inside the barrel provided for a better fit against the paintball. My point is that you could face the same problem. However, most of this testing was done before the new, thick, "no-wipe" paint started coming out, and if you test with something along those lines when you get to that point, you may avoid this issue entirely.

On a side note, somebody mentioned earlier in the thread that their would be difficulties in producing finned paint. I just wanted to point out that paintballs are produced using the same technology that gives us medications in capsules and those capsule come in all kinds of sizes and shapes. Designing a machine to produce a finned paintball half should be no problem.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Innkeeper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 December 2006 at 4:42am

Yes, the LTL rounds have the front half loaded with granular bismuth. The back half is loaded with paint or OC. Yummy.

All I am going to say on spin is: Flatline. ;)

Rifle tech has proven that the cylindrical stabilisation that the rifling, or in this case the fins, puts on the round will make the spun round outperform the comparible caliber spherical round.

The difficulties in making finned rounds was pointed out to me in another forum, and I had come up with the same example, medicinal capsules, for cylindrical rounds. The only issue would then be to add the fins in. I must research that more.

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 December 2006 at 4:58pm
Originally posted by The Innkeeper The Innkeeper wrote:

All I am going to say on spin is: Flatline. ;)



^^^ I should have addressed this in my earlier post.

The difference is that the flatline takes advantage of the forward motion of the paintball in combination with friction contact along just the top of the barrel to produce its spin. The rifled barrels, on the other hand, use friction from on all sides of the projectile to attempt to produce a spin that is imparted at an angle perpindicular to the direction of travel. One of the things that makes the flatline so effective is that its system works with the momentum of the ball while the rifled barrels don't.

Your idea has the potential to work, where rifled barrels have failed, because the fins can do one thing that no barrel can;  they can continue to affect the paintball throughout its flight even after it has left the barrel. That is what my observation on working with the heavier paint fills is based on.


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