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brihard View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brihard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 October 2006 at 12:07am
Originally posted by Dune Dune wrote:

Originally posted by Tae Kwon Do Tae Kwon Do wrote:

I'm not a criminology major, I just have a working understanding of people.

Haha, good point. Please tell me someone explained exactly how it is more expensive. Because there are too many people who just throw that fact to the side.



LOL, no-one actually provided figures to counter those showing execution is more expensive. As predicted, of course.
"Abortion is not "choice" in America. It is forced and the democrats are behind it, with the goal of eugenics at its foundation."

-FreeEnterprise, 21 April 2011.

Yup, he actually said that.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dune Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 October 2006 at 12:09am
Yeah, too much objective vs. subjective. Hard to fight facts against opinions.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tae Kwon Do Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 October 2006 at 12:11am
Originally posted by Dune Dune wrote:

Yeah, too much objective vs. subjective. Hard to fight facts against opinions.


Like I said on page 4.

Originally posted by Tae Kwon Do Tae Kwon Do wrote:

All Pathos. No Logos. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brihard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 October 2006 at 12:19am
Whale, your sig is starting to creep me out...
"Abortion is not "choice" in America. It is forced and the democrats are behind it, with the goal of eugenics at its foundation."

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tae Kwon Do Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 October 2006 at 12:20am
Originally posted by brihard brihard wrote:

Whale, your sig is starting to creep me out...


Why?
Don't know what it is?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clark Kent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 October 2006 at 12:22am
I have no idea what it is.  Been trying to figure it out.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tae Kwon Do Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 October 2006 at 12:29am
The cross and symbol of my Lord and Savior.








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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brihard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 October 2006 at 12:35am
Ah, gotcha.

Wikipedia is my friend.
"Abortion is not "choice" in America. It is forced and the democrats are behind it, with the goal of eugenics at its foundation."

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tae Kwon Do Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 October 2006 at 12:37am
Originally posted by brihard brihard wrote:

Ah, gotcha.

Wikipedia is my friend.


Didn't know who he was? Or just did not know his symbol?

If I ever get a tattoo, it will be what my sig is, except the full dagger.


Edited by Tae Kwon Do - 19 October 2006 at 12:38am

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brihard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 October 2006 at 12:40am
I actually didn't, no.
"Abortion is not "choice" in America. It is forced and the democrats are behind it, with the goal of eugenics at its foundation."

-FreeEnterprise, 21 April 2011.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tae Kwon Do Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 October 2006 at 12:41am
He is my hero in life, the reason I want to be a journalist and a writer in the first place.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sammy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 October 2006 at 7:17pm
Originally posted by travis75 travis75 wrote:


...and Sammy, congrats on getting it handed to you on page 5.  Kinda reminds me of that ps3 vs xbox 360 thread where I shot down every one of your arguments and you just left.

gg

Don't be a prick. I searched ps3 vs xbox 360 and didn't even find the thread, mind linking it to me? And to me leaving...I don't sit on this forum 24/7. The quarter ended this week for my school, I took the PSAT Wednesday, and it was my 16th birthday Wednesday. Those were a little more important than be me getting back to this quickly.


Originally posted by brihard brihard wrote:

My comments in red.

Originally posted by Sammy Sammy wrote:

Originally posted by Tae Kwon Do Tae Kwon Do wrote:

Cons:

1. Never proven as a deterrent to crime. How do you expect it to be shown as a deterrent? Saudi Arabia has the death pentaly, and extremely low crime yet you dismiss it.

That's a spurious statistical relationship. Saudi crime rates have to do with the societal, economic, cultural, and religious principles that country operates on.

Although this does not discuss Saudi Arabiaís crime rates, it discusses Whales original comment. I recognize there are arguments to both sides on the death penalty as a deterrent and I would consider it a push to as whether or not it greatly influences the crime rates.  

Justice Stewart held in the Supreme Court in Gregg v. Georgia: Although some of the studies suggest that the death penalty may not function as a significantly greater   deterrent than lesser penalties, there is no convincing empirical evidence supporting or refuting this view. We may nevertheless assume safely there are murders, such as those who act in passion, for whom the threat of death has little or no deterrent effect.  But for many others, the death penalty undoubtedly,  is a significant deterrent. There are carefully contemplated murders, such as murder for hire, where the possible penalty of death may well enter the cold calculus that precedes the decision to act  ( as cited in Carrington, 1978. p. 87).

According to Baily, who did a study from l967 to l968, the death penalty was a deterrent in 27 states.  When there was a moratorium on Capital Punishment in the United States, the study showed murder rates increased by 100%.  The study also reviewed 14 nations who abolished the death penalty.   It (the study) claimed murder increased by 7% from five years before the abolition period to the five years after the abolition (Internet)

 Studies were made by Professor Isaac Erlich  between the period of 1933 and 1969.  He concluded  ďAn additional execution per year may have resulted in  fewer murders  (Bedau, 1982, p. 323)Ē. .

2. People have been released from the "Death Row" as innocent. True
3. People could still be on death row that are innocent. Again, always the slight chance but with the use of dna less people will be wrongfully put to death.
 

How many people is it acceptable to accidentally execute? I would argue that the loss of a single innocent life is far too great a risk. Why is it necessary to kill a person as opposed to imprisoning them for life (at a lesser financial cost, for that matter).

 

How many people have been wrongfully executed? Some studies have said around 10-20 yet many other studies have debunked these. I think that the extremely small chance of a loss of life with the decrease in crime is justified. Killing a person can bring closure to the family, provide a just form of punishment, and possibly decrease crime (again, opinion/judgmental.)  

4. Killing should not be revenged by more killing. Personal opinion

Please present a logical moral argument that justifies the taking of another human life as judicial sanction. When you've accomplished that (it is possible), then go on and statistically prove to me the judicial benefit of capital punishment as it pertains to protecting individuals and society, and moreover, how capital punishment does a superior job of doing so that incarceration, while still protecting the rights of the accused.

An eye for an eye. Any person who takes another personís life should face the same.

As some of my statistics have shown above, murder rates increased when the death penalty was ďpaused.Ē If murder rates are reduced, I would easily argue that it protects society and the people greater than incarceration, along with protecting the other people in prison. A murderer who cannot be put to death has nothing to lose and would have no fears in prison, thereby allowing him to kill with impunity. The accused still has the right to an attorney and a fair trial, and with the greater use of DNA evidence, the accusedís chance of being wrongfully convicted is next to none.

5. Brutalizes society. Please elaborate

Violence begets violence. It also generates a societal reliance on force and violence in resolution of problems rather than attacking the initial sociological factors that cause crime in the first place. Judicial sanction should act in such a manner than the minimum amount of imposition on a person's rights are used to gain the maximum compliance with the law across the society as a whole.

If violence such as the death penalty reduces crime, then it improves society. A reliance on force can be just if it is beneficial to society. A person who takes another life, or many lives in my opinion, should not have all the rights a law abiding person of society should have.

6. Only civilized western country with death penalty. Wrong. Japan, Taiwan, and South Korea have the death pentaly. But then again, I'm not sure if you are meaning actual "Western" countries like America, or just modernized countries in general. Lastly, most Caribbean nations have the death penalty, such as the Bahamas.

Please provide statistical evidence that demonstrates that those countries enjoy lower crime as a result of capital punishment. You'll need to isolate any other variables such as economic and cultural factors. Also verify that none of those countries have ever executed an innocent person.

 

Thatís would take way to much time. I am not going to research every one of their countries along with their crime rates while keeping in mind economics and cultural factors. I am not aware of all the cultural differences between the United States and Japan and researching the internet would not show me all of them. It would be futile to attempt to do so. Economic factors? Japan has a similar economy to the Western world overall. Also, Japan and Saudi Arabia both have lower crime rates than the United States while both exercising the use of the death penalty. You are straying from the original point though. Whale made a statement just saying we are the only civilized country with the death penalty, and I showed other countries that use it.

 

7. Courts are discriminatory against minorities when condemning to death. Please elaborate. Statistics?  And don't just show me that more minorities get executed than whites.

Why, is that not sufficient? If a greater proportion of minorities are sentenced to death than the proportion of minorities convicted of capital offences, is that not indicative of a larger issue within the justice system? And if the justice system is so clearly flawed, ought that not be remedies before that system is entrusted with decisions regarding such a vital matter as the ending of a person's life?

 

Itís not sufficient because itís quite possible that minorities commit more crimes than whites. But here are statistics that show that more whites are put to death than minorities anyways. 1951-1963, ten whites were executed, 3 blacks were. Also, Whites continue to comprise the majority on death row in the year 2000 (1,990 whites to 1,535 blacks and 68 others). In the year 2000, 49 of the 85 people actually put to death were whites.

8. Killing someone should be considered to be cruel and unusual. We have rules against that. A painless death is cruel and unusual where as sticking somebody in  a 8 X 10 cell for 23 hours a day is not? Again, opinion.

You can leave a jail cell if they realize there was an error. You can recover from rape. You can seek financial recompense for lost wages. You cannot be resurrected from the grave.

 

Many people never recover from rape and are traumatized for life. Lost wages? Most people on death row murdered somebody. The victims usually canít seek those lost wagesÖ

9. Much more expensive than life in prison. Again, it all depends on the appeals. If people were executed immediately, it would cut down on these costs, but I do agree there is a slight chance of people being wrongly executed. I think the cost of life in prison vs the cost of the death penalty is neglegible.

Since 1989, there have been 943 people executed in the United States. Since that same year, over 184 people on death row - that is, guilty and sentenced for execution -  have been exonerated by DNA evidence. That's roughly 16% of the population of death row that have been found innocent by later use of DNA evidence. How many innocent people are still there? How many were executed prior to this evidence being available? How many innocent people are not fortunate enough to have evidence out there that will exonerate them? I cannot provide figures for all three of these questions, and unless you can, how can you possibly argue that capital punishment is justifiable? Thatese are REAL INNOCENT PEOPLE who have been executed or exonerated prior to execution. Each one has or had a family. A real life. Probably some kind of job. A history. Each is a living breathing eprson with a name and a face- they aren't some abstract expression on a web page somewhere. It could happen to you.

 

If 184 people have been freed because of DNA evidence, doesnít that show the advantages of DNA evidence? If you canít show how many innocent have been put to death, then why are you trying to say we are executing innocent people?

10. No chance of rehabilitation. The people that usually get the death penatly are multi-murderers or rapist/murderers. Not usually people we would rehabilitate anyways.

But not all of them are.

 

What other crimes to people receive the death penalty for then?

 

 At least 16% of them aren't. Please provide me with statistical information on recidivism rates for murder parolees.

 

In Canada, recidivism rates are around 2% for 1990-2000. Experts say recidivism rates of 60 percent to 80 percent are typical for many large prison institutions, whether they house adults or juveniles in the United States. [URL] http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/special_pack ages/cya/9942302.htm[/URL]  [URL]http://www.npb-cnlc.gc.ca/media/newsrele/090800_e.htm[/URL]

In Canada, 0.13% of violent crime (2006) is committed by previously incarcerated offenders. Violent offenders differ more in degree than in mentality; rates can be expected to be similarly low for murderers. Additionally, how many young to middle aged men, after serving a 25 year sentence, are likely to commit another murder? Those who are have already in most cases been determined during their incarceration adn the release or parole process through interviews, personality assessments, etc.

Most young men wouldnít receive the death penalty.

 

Average age of convicted is 27, and average age of death is 40. I canít provide you with an exact number of how many young people after a 25 year sentence would commit another major crime, but they are more likely.



Originally posted by Benjichang Benjichang wrote:

In a court system, as fallible humans, we can never be 100% sure of anyone's guilt, so how the hell can you kill someone if you're not 100% sure they committed the crime? And once again, who the hell deemed humans worthy judges whether somone should live or die?

How can you throw somebody in prison forever without being sure? I would hardly say that is any better. Stop being so barbaric! Geeze.


If you were falsely convicted, which would you prefer? Do unto others...




Edited by Sammy - 19 October 2006 at 7:20pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Savage93fvss Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 October 2006 at 7:29pm
Originally posted by Savage93fvss Savage93fvss wrote:

Originally posted by brihard brihard wrote:



Originally posted by Sammy Sammy wrote:

[QUOTE=Tae Kwon Do]Cons:


7. Courts are discriminatory against minorities when condemning to death. Please elaborate. Statistics?  And don't just show me that more minorities get executed than whites.

Why, is that not sufficient? If a greater proportion of minorities are sentenced to death than the proportion of minorities convicted of capital offences, is that not indicative of a larger issue within the justice system? And if the justice system is so clearly flawed, ought that not be remedies before that system is entrusted with decisions regarding such a vital matter as the ending of a person's life?




So what your saying is it's impossible for minorities to commit more crimes? Jury's are peers, which means they're white, black, yellow, green, etc. to say a jury is discriminatory is ignorant to say the least.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GI JOES SON Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 October 2006 at 7:48pm
Originally posted by Savage93fvss Savage93fvss wrote:

Originally posted by Savage93fvss Savage93fvss wrote:

Originally posted by brihard brihard wrote:



Originally posted by Sammy Sammy wrote:

[QUOTE=Tae Kwon Do]Cons:


7. Courts are discriminatory against minorities when condemning to death. Please elaborate. Statistics?  And don't just show me that more minorities get executed than whites.

Why, is that not sufficient? If a greater proportion of minorities are sentenced to death than the proportion of minorities convicted of capital offences, is that not indicative of a larger issue within the justice system? And if the justice system is so clearly flawed, ought that not be remedies before that system is entrusted with decisions regarding such a vital matter as the ending of a person's life?




So what your saying is it's impossible for minorities to commit more crimes? Jury's are peers, which means they're white, black, yellow, green, etc. to say a jury is discriminatory is ignorant to say the least.

no its not, just because they say its discriminatory doesnt mean its because of color race or creed. in criminal justice all the films we watch, the lawyer always asks for example "have any of you here on the jury been involved in a car crash similar to this?" then he asks that the judge remove those jurers on the basis they may make a biased judgement

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote travis75 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 October 2006 at 9:23pm
Originally posted by Sammy Sammy wrote:

Originally posted by travis75 travis75 wrote:


...and Sammy, congrats on getting it handed to you on page 5.  Kinda reminds me of that ps3 vs xbox 360 thread where I shot down every one of your arguments and you just left.

gg

Don't be a prick. I searched ps3 vs xbox 360 and didn't even find the thread, mind linking it to me? And to me leaving...I don't sit on this forum 24/7. The quarter ended this week for my school, I took the PSAT Wednesday, and it was my 16th birthday Wednesday. Those were a little more important than be me getting back to this quickly.


........




Some of the info about the ps3 has changed but anyway:

http://www.tippmann.com/forum/wwf77a/forum_posts.asp?TID=145 319

Third page.
Hey MPAA, Guess what?

09 f9 11 02 9d 74 e3 5b d8 41 56 c5 63 56 88 c0!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GI JOES SON Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 October 2006 at 9:27pm

as to that ps3 vs xbox 360 thread....i may be too young to remember, but did n64 games really cost up to $80?

dude i just noticed that thread is a year old....why do you remember those things?



Edited by GI JOES SON - 19 October 2006 at 9:30pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sammy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 October 2006 at 9:34pm
Originally posted by travis75 travis75 wrote:

Originally posted by Sammy Sammy wrote:

Originally posted by travis75 travis75 wrote:


...and Sammy, congrats on getting it handed to you on page 5.  Kinda reminds me of that ps3 vs xbox 360 thread where I shot down every one of your arguments and you just left.

gg

Don't be a prick. I searched ps3 vs xbox 360 and didn't even find the thread, mind linking it to me? And to me leaving...I don't sit on this forum 24/7. The quarter ended this week for my school, I took the PSAT Wednesday, and it was my 16th birthday Wednesday. Those were a little more important than be me getting back to this quickly.


........




Some of the info about the ps3 has changed but anyway:

http://www.tippmann.com/forum/wwf77a/forum_posts.asp?TID=145 319

Third page.

Ah, all well. I guess I never got around to bumpin it. The power supply isn't that big..


/me goes and looks at my 360's psu.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Galm </\> Zero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 October 2006 at 9:39pm
Please don't give me any of that they deserve to live crap. They did something worthy being killed for and they should own up to it. I don't care that it's more expenisive then life in prison it's the principel of the matter. I aint going to pay taxes so that some bastard that shot a guy to death over the price of a taquito can live to eat every day, and have a bed to lie on.
For after all what's man in nature? A central point in between nothing & all, infinitely far from understanding either.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote travis75 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 October 2006 at 9:40pm
Originally posted by Sammy Sammy wrote:

Originally posted by travis75 travis75 wrote:

Originally posted by Sammy Sammy wrote:

Originally posted by travis75 travis75 wrote:


...and Sammy, congrats on getting it handed to you on page 5.  Kinda reminds me of that ps3 vs xbox 360 thread where I shot down every one of your arguments and you just left.

gg

Don't be a prick. I searched ps3 vs xbox 360 and didn't even find the thread, mind linking it to me? And to me leaving...I don't sit on this forum 24/7. The quarter ended this week for my school, I took the PSAT Wednesday, and it was my 16th birthday Wednesday. Those were a little more important than be me getting back to this quickly.


........




Some of the info about the ps3 has changed but anyway:

http://www.tippmann.com/forum/wwf77a/forum_posts.asp?TID=145 319

Third page.

Ah, all well. I guess I never got around to bumpin it. The power supply isn't that big..


/me goes and looks at my 360's psu.

Just admit that it's a surprisingly large power brick and i'll call it even.
Hey MPAA, Guess what?

09 f9 11 02 9d 74 e3 5b d8 41 56 c5 63 56 88 c0!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sammy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 October 2006 at 9:43pm
fine fine its a brick


Edited by Sammy - 19 October 2006 at 9:44pm
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