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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clark Kent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 September 2006 at 2:04pm
Originally posted by MT. Vigilante MT. Vigilante wrote:


Those people are not Christians, they may call themselves Christians but they are not because they are not following anything in the Bible.

Lamest excuse ever.  That same reasoning could be used (and has been) to claim that the jihadists are not really Muslim.

Sorry - if they read the Bible and claim to be Christian, then they are Christian for all practical purposes.  You don't get to conveniently declare anybody "not a Christian" who does something you disagree with.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tolgak Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 September 2006 at 2:27pm
Originally posted by MT. Vigilante MT. Vigilante wrote:

However I do believe that the terrorist are following the original teachings of mohamed. I beleive this because when Mohamed first began to preach in Mecca, no one believed him. So he went to Medina where he converted many, he then led his new converts back to Mecca where he had them slaghter the population of Mecca for not believing him.

I just hope that the majority of muslims continue in thier belief in a peacefull islam, wheather that is true islam or not.



Unlike Christianity, Islamic people do not idolize the actions of their prophet. Their only idol is Allah. So just because Mohammad did such a thing doesn't mean it is justified in the religion.

Can you think of any thing in Christianity where tons of people were slaughtered on command of religious leaders for not believing? I sure can. There was plenty of corruption in Christianity as was in Islam. It doesn't make it part of the religion.

You can argue that Mohammed was the creator of Islam and Jesus really wasn't for Christianity so it was a moot point. But if you think about it, Christianity was shaped over time by many people, many of those who were corrupt or fought in the name of Christianity. So it could also be true that Christianity condones violence as well.

I would have formulated a clearer response but I have to study something right now. If you want more explination for my sayings, I'll gladly take the time to do so once all my work is finished for the day.


Edited by Tolgak - 18 September 2006 at 2:28pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fractus.scud Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 September 2006 at 3:58pm
All religions have had some form of corruptness, attacks on innocent people, etc. Plainly because the Church on Earth is run by man, and let's face it, we are far from perfect. The Catholic Church has had it's problems in the past (even though Muslims initially invaded the Holy  Empire causing the start of the Crusades) My question is why don't moderate Muslims denounce the utter violence being preached by the radicals in the mid-east. Violent Catholics are condoned by the Church, as that behavior is not in line with the teachings of the church.

I don't think it is totally fair to blame the problems of a religion on the actions of it's people. The problem is when religious leaders fan the flames of violence. There are plenty of Muslim leaders in the mid-east doing just that. I don't see any Catholic leaders calling for a Jihad against Islam, or saying behead them etc.

Now these radical Muslims in the Mid-East are threatening to break the cross, spill the wine, and put a head tax on Christians.

"Convert or die by the sword" are their chants.

Had a Catholic said this he/she would probably be excommunicated from the Church.  There is clearly a difference.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brihard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 September 2006 at 4:11pm
Originally posted by MT. Vigilante MT. Vigilante wrote:

Originally posted by brihard brihard wrote:

MT, I'd reccommend refreshing yourself with the conflicts in Ireland, in particular the 'troubles'. Much catholic vs protestant violence and terrorism. Witness atrocities committed between Christian Croats and Muslim Serbs in the 1990s. I know men who fought in the Medak Pocket in Croatia and killed Croatian soldiers who were massacring Serbian civilians- it was a war fought in great part over religious-based cultural differences. 'Ethnic cleansing' is a lovely term, isn't it? Sounds much nicer than 'genocide'.

There are Chrsitian terrorist groups waging battles in India. In 2004 they killed 44 Hindus.

The Lord's Resistance Army in Uganda is a Christian nationalist element with strong terrorist cells.




Don't make claims without research.


Those people are not Christians, they may call themselves Christians but they are not because they are not following anything in the Bible. Christ said this; " For God did not send his son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him." John 3:17. So any terrorist who calls himself a christian is not one at all.

You are probably thinking, the same could be said about islam, this is not true. For the extremists can find many examples in thier religion that they are true muslims, so called "Christian Terrorists" can not. You may now be asking how I know this, I have asked many a muslim and they all say the same thing, wich is exactly what I have told you now.

Now, I do not believe that the majority of muslims are evil, most of them are good. However I do believe that the terrorist are following the original teachings of mohamed. I beleive this because when Mohamed first began to preach in Mecca, no one believed him. So he went to Medina where he converted many, he then led his new converts back to Mecca where he had them slaghter the population of Mecca for not believing him.
I just hope that the majority of muslims continue in thier belief in a peacefull islam, wheather that is true islam or not.



Bull. I'll drag up biblical quotes later after class if noone else beats me to it, but there are DEFINITELY parts in the bible that call for violence against others. Likewise, the radical muslims are deemed by moderates within their own religion to not be following the true tenets of their faith.

I'd suggest checking out the Skeptic's Annotated Bible. You'll find it illuminating
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fractus.scud Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 September 2006 at 4:20pm

Most if not all "violent" quotes in the Bible are taken from the Old Testement, and it's laws were made basically obsolete by Jesus and the New Testement.

No where does the Bible order Christians to cut the heads off non-believers or make it's goal to convert the entire world or kill it.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote __sneaky__ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 September 2006 at 5:18pm
Originally posted by MT. Vigilante MT. Vigilante wrote:

Those people are not Christians, they may call themselves Christians but they are not because they are not following anything in the Bible. Christ said this; " For God did not send his son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him." John 3:17. So any terrorist who calls himself a christian is not one at all.

You are probably thinking, the same could be said about islam, this is not true. For the extremists can find many examples in thier religion that they are true muslims, so called "Christian Terrorists" can not. You may now be asking how I know this, I have asked many a muslim and they all say the same thing, wich is exactly what I have told you now.

Now, I do not believe that the majority of muslims are evil, most of them are good. However I do believe that the terrorist are following the original teachings of mohamed. I beleive this because when Mohamed first began to preach in Mecca, no one believed him. So he went to Medina where he converted many, he then led his new converts back to Mecca where he had them slaghter the population of Mecca for not believing him.
I just hope that the majority of muslims continue in thier belief in a peacefull islam, wheather that is true islam or not.

And of course those christian terrorists, whernt following the teachings of the bible either... It may never say to grab a .45 and kill abortion doctors, but neither does the Koran.

So you cant accuse the muzlims on that without taking the same thing into consideration for your own religion.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fractus.scud Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 September 2006 at 5:29pm
In the last 30 years exactly 7 people have been killed by anti-abortion extremists. That number is provided by the group that apparently regulates abortion centers, The National Abortion Federation.


I wonder if muslim extremists killed 7 people so far today? The issue is that there are far more violent Muslims than Christians, and the "moderates" are doing nothing to stop it. Christians were outraged by the killing of abortionists. Many moderate Muslims are acting indifferent to the acts of their extremist division.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Skillet42565 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 September 2006 at 5:31pm
fractus, murder is murder, the numbers dont matter.  The issue here is not which religion is more violent, its "Is Islam Evil" so quit being an idiot.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clark Kent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 September 2006 at 5:47pm

Originally posted by fractus.scud fractus.scud wrote:

"Convert or die by the sword" are their chants.

Had a Catholic said this he/she would probably be excommunicated from the Church.  There is clearly a difference.

I believe "convert or die by the sword" was how much of the world was initially converted to christianity...

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clark Kent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 September 2006 at 5:49pm
Originally posted by fractus.scud fractus.scud wrote:

Most if not all "violent" quotes in the Bible are taken from the Old Testement, and it's laws were made basically obsolete by Jesus and the New Testement.

Well that's just wrong.  Why is there an OT reading every Sunday?

The Ten Commandments are now obsolete?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Destruction Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 September 2006 at 5:55pm
It's not my religion, so, yes.
u dont know what to do ur getting mottor boatted

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldsoldier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 September 2006 at 6:06pm
Currently there is not a Holy Crusade in operation trying to convert the world to christianity with violence. But there is as faction of Radical Islam doing its best to revert the world to the 13th Century and with thier beliefs as the only belief.

Too many here and throughout the world are trying to justify the actions of the extremeists with comparisons to Christian Crusades long over. It is the 21st century and a group is corrupting a religion to an evil entity, intent on furthering thier goals.

Options, sit around and do nothing (the current trend) like Chamberlin did when facing a growing evil, pretending it does not exsist, or attempt to contain it and possibly stop it with viable options to the mob who more and more are beginning to follow the extremists.

It's your future folks, I'll be checkin out here hopefully before this whole mess litery "mushrooms" here in america, and I am betting it will. Some whack will grow a mushroom in an american city, and the finger pointing will begin anew as each try to blame the other in our political circus. When like in 1938, we have a chance to stop or contain it now, before a couple of million die. Vote well, it is you future.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Destruction Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 September 2006 at 6:34pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MT. Vigilante Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 September 2006 at 6:38pm
Originally posted by brihard brihard wrote:

Originally posted by MT. Vigilante MT. Vigilante wrote:

Originally posted by brihard brihard wrote:

MT, I'd reccommend refreshing yourself with the conflicts in Ireland, in particular the 'troubles'. Much catholic vs protestant violence and terrorism. Witness atrocities committed between Christian Croats and Muslim Serbs in the 1990s. I know men who fought in the Medak Pocket in Croatia and killed Croatian soldiers who were massacring Serbian civilians- it was a war fought in great part over religious-based cultural differences. 'Ethnic cleansing' is a lovely term, isn't it? Sounds much nicer than 'genocide'.

There are Chrsitian terrorist groups waging battles in India. In 2004 they killed 44 Hindus.

The Lord's Resistance Army in Uganda is a Christian nationalist element with strong terrorist cells.




Don't make claims without research.


Those people are not Christians, they may call themselves Christians but they are not because they are not following anything in the Bible. Christ said this; " For God did not send his son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him." John 3:17. So any terrorist who calls himself a christian is not one at all.

You are probably thinking, the same could be said about islam, this is not true. For the extremists can find many examples in thier religion that they are true muslims, so called "Christian Terrorists" can not. You may now be asking how I know this, I have asked many a muslim and they all say the same thing, wich is exactly what I have told you now.

Now, I do not believe that the majority of muslims are evil, most of them are good. However I do believe that the terrorist are following the original teachings of mohamed. I beleive this because when Mohamed first began to preach in Mecca, no one believed him. So he went to Medina where he converted many, he then led his new converts back to Mecca where he had them slaghter the population of Mecca for not believing him.
I just hope that the majority of muslims continue in thier belief in a peacefull islam, wheather that is true islam or not.



Bull. I'll drag up biblical quotes later after class if noone else beats me to it, but there are DEFINITELY parts in the bible that call for violence against others. Likewise, the radical muslims are deemed by moderates within their own religion to not be following the true tenets of their faith.

I'd suggest checking out the Skeptic's Annotated Bible. You'll find it illuminating


Show me one Bible verse where Jesus tells his followers to kill people if they don't convert, just one. And it has to be from the New Testement, (of coars that is the only place where Jesus' teachings are written down anyway.)

And to whoever said that the Ten commandments are null and void, that is not true, Jesus said himself that they are still to be followed, but they say nothing about killing anyone anyway, infact they clearly say "You shall not comit murder."

Originally posted by Clark Kent Clark Kent wrote:

Sorry - if they read the Bible and claim to be Christian, then they are Christian for all practical purposes.  You don't get to conveniently declare anybody "not a Christian" who does something you disagree with.


That is not true, the Bible clearly states that regardless of what you say, if you are not following and teaching what the Bible teaches then you are not a true christian.



Edited by MT. Vigilante - 18 September 2006 at 6:42pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BARREL BREAK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 September 2006 at 6:47pm
Originally posted by XenoSabre XenoSabre wrote:

Originally posted by mbro mbro wrote:

Radical christains are just as bad.

Radical anything is bad.


True.

IMO, every type of religion merely prays on peoples fears of a power or state that is much greater than they are.

Radical Islam preys on peoples fear of death just as much as Christiantity preys on people's fear of going to hell.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fractus.scud Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 September 2006 at 6:57pm

Originally posted by Skillet42565 Skillet42565 wrote:

fractus, murder is murder, the numbers dont matter.

Skillet, I wouldn't be bringing Christianity into the discussion, but some characters here decided to compare Christianity to radical Islam.

Actually numbers do matter. Let's say you have religion A and B. Both have extremists.

 

Religion A's extremists have killed 7 people in 30 years.

Religion B's extremists have killed 30 people in seven hours.

Obviously, religion B has more issues. Granted a murder is a murder, but when one religion's extremists are murdering far more than the other somthing is wrong, especially when there is a dead silence from the "moderates" not doing anything to try to stop the violence.

 

 



Edited by fractus.scud - 18 September 2006 at 7:00pm

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tolgak Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 September 2006 at 7:04pm
Here's the problem with moderate Islamic people speaking out against the radicals.



In the U.S.:

The feeling that one person cannot instigate any sort of change.

The knowledge that if one could instigate a mass protest, that there would not be enough Islamic people around them to come out and support them.

The fear that people would harrass a large group of Muslims because of the assumption (and possible truth) that the average U.S. person has a negative opinion about Islam.

The fear that one wouldn't be listened to by the rest of the population around them because one is Islamic in a society dominated by Christians who are assumed to despise Muslims (except for the ones they know personally).



In Europe:

A lot of the same feelings as there are in the U.S.

The fear that there are radicals in Europe willing to kill any Islamic person protesting against their terrorism. The Qu'ran says that while it is ok for a person to start off in a different religion, it is considered an attack against Allah for loosing faith in Islam. the radicals are going against the former part of the sentence now, so there is more fear. To the radicals, a bunch of Islamic protesting against their actions is no longer Islam. They've bombed plenty of places in Europe and they would be more willing to do so in this situation.

The fear that starting protest could cause violence elsewhere.



In the Mid East:

A protest or a person speaking out against the radicals wouldn't live for a week before someone takes violent action against the protester/protests.



Elsewhere:

Again, some of the same feelings in the U.S.

Again, the possibility of radicals taking violent action against them when protesting anywhere near a large Islamic population.

The feeling of being ridiculed by the community around them for being so "stupid" to protest (risk of violence) or a shared dislike of the U.S./Europe.

The fact that most people don't associate Islam with areas such as North Africa and Indonesia could make people impartial to the issue, because they aren't getting ridiculed by other countries or people within their communities.


Edited by Tolgak - 18 September 2006 at 7:08pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rednekk98 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 September 2006 at 7:53pm

Extremists of most religions are no good for anybody. However the difference between extremist Islam and extremist Christian sects is what they're trying to follow.

Christian fundamentalists are dangerous because they follow everything in the bible. As depicted in the bible(especially the old testament) God is a mass-murdering jerk. These people try to do God's work(or their interpretation) and don't pay so much attention in emulating Jesus.

Islamic fundamentalist problem is when they try to emulate the Prophet. While a lot of Islam's teaching are fundamentally good, especially their emphasis on charity and such, Mohammed's actions are not exactly a good thing to follow. Emulating the prohet isn't required of Muslims, but it's a way for crazy fundemantalists to say "Nah nah, I'm more devout than you are".

In short

Jesus=good role model

Mohammed=bad role model

The messages behind both religions are mostly good, but literal interpretation or the text is bad, as is acting like a warlord. Mohammed billed himself as a prophet, therefore not requiring followers to do anything except what god tells him to tell them. No need to do as he does. Jesus billed himself as the savior/god personified whatever, so he requires some sort emulation.

It's the man vs. the message.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cedric Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 September 2006 at 7:58pm
To answer your question: No.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote __sneaky__ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 September 2006 at 8:35pm
Originally posted by MT. Vigilante MT. Vigilante wrote:

Originally posted by brihard brihard wrote:

Originally posted by MT. Vigilante MT. Vigilante wrote:

Originally posted by brihard brihard wrote:

MT, I'd reccommend refreshing yourself with the conflicts in Ireland, in particular the 'troubles'. Much catholic vs protestant violence and terrorism. Witness atrocities committed between Christian Croats and Muslim Serbs in the 1990s. I know men who fought in the Medak Pocket in Croatia and killed Croatian soldiers who were massacring Serbian civilians- it was a war fought in great part over religious-based cultural differences. 'Ethnic cleansing' is a lovely term, isn't it? Sounds much nicer than 'genocide'.

There are Chrsitian terrorist groups waging battles in India. In 2004 they killed 44 Hindus.

The Lord's Resistance Army in Uganda is a Christian nationalist element with strong terrorist cells.




Don't make claims without research.


Those people are not Christians, they may call themselves Christians but they are not because they are not following anything in the Bible. Christ said this; " For God did not send his son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him." John 3:17. So any terrorist who calls himself a christian is not one at all.

You are probably thinking, the same could be said about islam, this is not true. For the extremists can find many examples in thier religion that they are true muslims, so called "Christian Terrorists" can not. You may now be asking how I know this, I have asked many a muslim and they all say the same thing, wich is exactly what I have told you now.

Now, I do not believe that the majority of muslims are evil, most of them are good. However I do believe that the terrorist are following the original teachings of mohamed. I beleive this because when Mohamed first began to preach in Mecca, no one believed him. So he went to Medina where he converted many, he then led his new converts back to Mecca where he had them slaghter the population of Mecca for not believing him.
I just hope that the majority of muslims continue in thier belief in a peacefull islam, wheather that is true islam or not.



Bull. I'll drag up biblical quotes later after class if noone else beats me to it, but there are DEFINITELY parts in the bible that call for violence against others. Likewise, the radical muslims are deemed by moderates within their own religion to not be following the true tenets of their faith.

I'd suggest checking out the Skeptic's Annotated Bible. You'll find it illuminating


Show me one Bible verse where Jesus tells his followers to kill people if they don't convert, just one. And it has to be from the New Testement, (of coars that is the only place where Jesus' teachings are written down anyway.)

And to whoever said that the Ten commandments are null and void, that is not true, Jesus said himself that they are still to be followed, but they say nothing about killing anyone anyway, infact they clearly say "You shall not comit murder."

And yet God himself, flooded the planet... do you not consider that murder? truth be told, if where to believe the bible, God has commited way more sin than any of us. You wanna talk about Gennocide, think about it. Millions and Millions of people where killed just because they did'nt believe a certain way.

I dont give a damn who kills them for what they believe weather its God or follower, its still wrong. God supposadly gave us the free will to live our lives as we want, he may be all powerfull but even he can't take back a promise he gave to us. So either one God is a lier and we shouldnt believe anything he says, or 2 the bible is not true and we should'nt trust it. I dont wanna hear any of that "G0Dz sp3cialz! H3 c4n D0oZ w4T3VER!" beucause you and I both know thats a bunch of B.S.

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