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usafpilot07 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote usafpilot07 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 August 2006 at 2:12pm
Originally posted by Destruction Destruction wrote:

One thing that's always irked me is: Where did God come from? How did he come to be?

I've gotten a few different answersin the past, but I'm interested in yours, bassist. By the way, if you're going to use the answer "He was just there" could you explain it a little bit?


I had planned to stay out of all these "born ghey" and religion debates, mainly because there are only a small number of people on this forum whose oppinions I value, but I think this is an interesting topic.

Now, my thoughts on this are not only theological, but scientific as well.  I think it was Einstein that said time is like a curve. Much like that of a lense, which is one of the reasons that he said time TRAVEL would be impossible, but viewing the future may be feasable one day.  I'm adlibbing(sp?) a little big, but you get the idea. 

Here's my thought; Imagine that each universe or "dimension" depending on the way evertyhing works together, is it's own "lense" and time operates through each lense.  If every universe/"dimension" is on the same "plane" of other-space, then what is to say that God cannot also exist there?  In the Bible it says that God has always been, but maybe that is the only way to explain it to an entity(people) that exist entirely in a time-based universe. 

Think about it, the only reason time even matters to us is becaues of entropy(the depletion of energy, it can be applied to anything. Batteries, People, Universes...)  and change, ie. Growing up, dying, decaying, etc.  In my view, God exists within this other-space, and is  not effected by entropy then he is truly an Immortal and we cannot grasp his true existence because we are locked withing time.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gatyr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 August 2006 at 2:15pm
Well, I will admit that is a rather interesting theory USAFpilot.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blackdog144 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 August 2006 at 2:52pm
Originally posted by Styro Folme Styro Folme wrote:

even though i don't like the name, i am an athiest as well.  it makes more sence to make up a story about "god", than for it to actually happen. 

Noah's Arc for example.  He got 2 of every single animal from all over the world into a boat that HE ALONE built.  What did the carnivores eat if there where only 2 of each animal?  Where did they poop?  What prevented the deformities of inbreeding?  Logical christian answer would be "god watched over them".  Well, How come god isn't watching over us now?  Why are children born retarded and not offered a complete life?  Why are people supposedly sent to hell for an eternity of nothing but torture and pain, but then god still loves them?

When i was a kid, i thought God was real.  I also thought Santa was real, as well as the easter bunny, the tooth fairy, and everything on TV.  Did anyone tell me they didn't exist?  No, i figured it out myself.  I did the same thing with christianity. 

Sorry about sounding bitter, guys, but i don't like to be called ignorant.  Beleive what you want, i don't mean for everyone to convert.  I'll respect your choices if you'll respect mine.



about noahs arc...about the poop thing...the lowest level of the arc was where they stored the poop. And yes they brought 2 of every animal onto the arc, but they did need food for the carnivors, so they brought food for them. All they needed was 2, a male and a female to reproduce and all that jazz. Man that didnt make any sence but thats the best i can explaine it...

other then that, i have a question for the athiests in this forum. you dont believe in God or a god. So you dont believe in anything. So do you believe there isnt a God? obviosly you believe there isnt a god so you believe in something. right?

that didnt make sence either but ya...anyway im a Christian just to put that in there....anyway ill be back later...got to go to work...



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote procarbinefreak Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 August 2006 at 2:59pm

duh styro... where do you think the term "poop deck" came from. 

 

btw bassist, no one actually 'knows' that a god exists... that's why it's called faith. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dune Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 August 2006 at 3:45pm
Originally posted by bassist11 bassist11 wrote:

were you anything before you became an atheist?

and you kind of are ignorant if you knew there is a god. you can't unlearn something. you can try and push it away and forget about it but you can't unlearn it. you have knowledge that there is a god and you deny it. ignorance.

Please tell me you don't believe this and that this thread is one big joke. You're saying that just because we had learned something before still makes it true after our beliefs change? So...someone raised as a Buddhist, taught completely different ideals from you, then converts to Christianity, would be ignorant because he now believes in a god that didn't exist in his prior beliefs? That is basically your thought process but backwards, and it's still stupid. I was baptised Methodist, and now am the furthest thing from it. I am an atheist and fully believe that what I had been taught prior was wrong...not my thoughts now. It's not about unlearning anything...it's about following a different path.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hitman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 August 2006 at 3:54pm
My reasoning for disbelief in religion, Christianity in particular, is because it allows no room for growth. Science gets proven wrong all the time. It learns from this and continues on for the best. That is the same model I choose to live my life by. I respect science, I am not a Scientologist.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dune Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 August 2006 at 3:56pm

Originally posted by Hitman Hitman wrote:

My reasoning for disbelief in religion, Christianity in particular, is because it allows no room for growth. Science gets proven wrong all the time. It learns from this and continues on for the best. That is the same model I choose to live my life by. I respect science, I am not a Scientologist.

Quite a large difference there. Unfortunately, Scientology has nothing to do with the vast leaps and bounds of the scientific community. It actually deals more with a "science fiction" style.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hitman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 August 2006 at 4:03pm
Originally posted by Dune Dune wrote:

Originally posted by Hitman Hitman wrote:

My reasoning for disbelief in religion, Christianity in particular, is because it allows no room for growth. Science gets proven wrong all the time. It learns from this and continues on for the best. That is the same model I choose to live my life by. I respect science, I am not a Scientologist.

Quite a large difference there. Unfortunately, Scientology has nothing to do with the vast leaps and bounds of the scientific community. It actually deals more with a "science fiction" style.



It was my understanding that Scientology made you pay for basic self-help information. They teach you a way to structure your life so you can be happy, much like Christianity. It is my opinion that a self-help book makes a much better bible then the one written from the word of god. They are written by modern professionals and they are more direct. Where the Bible hints at how to live in the "moral of the story", a self-help book will go out and tell you. You will likely get the same results. A better feeling for yourself which is often muddled up and called "the grace of god".


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dune Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 August 2006 at 4:05pm
Originally posted by Hitman Hitman wrote:

Originally posted by Dune Dune wrote:

Originally posted by Hitman Hitman wrote:

My reasoning for disbelief in religion, Christianity in particular, is because it allows no room for growth. Science gets proven wrong all the time. It learns from this and continues on for the best. That is the same model I choose to live my life by. I respect science, I am not a Scientologist.

Quite a large difference there. Unfortunately, Scientology has nothing to do with the vast leaps and bounds of the scientific community. It actually deals more with a "science fiction" style.



It was my understanding that Scientology made you pay for basic self-help information. They teach you a way to structure your life so you can be happy, much like Christianity. It is my opinion that a self-help book makes a much better bible then the one written from the word of god. They are written by modern professionals and they are more direct. Where the Bible hints at how to live in the "moral of the story", a self-help book will go out and tell you. You will likely get the same results. A better feeling for yourself which is often confused and called "the grace of god".

That's an interesting take on it, but one I can see. I guess I've just stopped paying attention to religion. It works for some and not for others. However, just because you were brought up with religion by no means makes you not a "true atheist."

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clark Kent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 August 2006 at 4:23pm

Hitman - unless, of course, the "self-help" books in question are completely counter-scientific.  Then they are just harmful.  But that is perhaps another subject.

On point - I suspect many people in the US tend to misapply the term "atheist", both religious folk and self-described "atheists".

A true atheist would be one that affirmatively believes that there is no god - yet I hear the term often apply to essentially any non-Christian, or non-religious person.  Kind of the you-are-with-us-or-against-us mentality.

This false dualism doesn't allow for the proper and full range of spirituality and belief.  Many of the disgruntled ex-Christians in this thread, for instance, would (I suspect) not fall within a proper definition of "atheist", but would simply be merely "non-Christian" or "a-religious".

"Religious" and "atheist" are not the only choices.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dune Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 August 2006 at 4:25pm
Originally posted by Clark Kent Clark Kent wrote:

Hitman - unless, of course, the "self-help" books in question are completely counter-scientific.  Then they are just harmful.  But that is perhaps another subject.

On point - I suspect many people in the US tend to misapply the term "atheist", both religious folk and self-described "atheists".

A true atheist would be one that affirmatively believes that there is no god - yet I hear the term often apply to essentially any non-Christian, or non-religious person.  Kind of the you-are-with-us-or-against-us mentality.

This false dualism doesn't allow for the proper and full range of spirituality and belief.  Many of the disgruntled ex-Christians in this thread, for instance, would (I suspect) not fall within a proper definition of "atheist", but would simply be merely "non-Christian" or "a-religious".

"Religious" and "atheist" are not the only choices.

Very true. Many people disbelieving in organized religion may still question the existence of a higher power, thus not actually an atheist. Others may simply not have a formulated opinion, and others may yet still be considered agnostic.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Destruction Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 August 2006 at 4:54pm
Originally posted by Gatyr Gatyr wrote:

Well, I will admit that is a rather interesting theory USAFpilot.


I agree. That's the first decent response I've heard to that question. But still, despite all of the science in that answer, none of it can be proved or disproved.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote evillepaintball Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 August 2006 at 5:24pm
Originally posted by bassist11 bassist11 wrote:

Ok. I got to thinking today and thought, is there really such thing as an atheist? How can you believe there is no god? Maybe if you were raised from day one that there is no gods. But a lot of atheist's are usually ex-catholic or ex-hindu or used to be in a different religion. Now if you were taught there is a god for most of your life and you just suddenly decide you don't believe in gods one day, isn't that just ignorance? How can you believe there is nothing when you know there is? Let's hear some thoughts.


thats like me telling you that there is a purple girraffe named Yeldar who lives in my room.  now you KNOW its there, so how can you not believe me?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote __sneaky__ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 August 2006 at 5:44pm

My thing with "god" is... I'f I'm to truly believe what the bible says. then God is the biggest serial killer and hypocrite to have ever exsisted.

1. The 5th commandment states thou shalt not murder, well then what do you call flooding the entire planet and killing everyone but 8 people... and not to mention all the other instances like when he sent a storm of fire to wipe out those 2 cities. The bible says its cuz everybody was wicked and evil and junk... they're practicing god's promise of free will, if he didnt want us to sin dont give us the option.

2. There is absolutly NO proof that there is or ever has been a god. I mean really... how is there gunna be a random magicall man who has always been in exsistance and got bored one day and created this.

3. (styro kinda beat me to this one with that whole love his people yet send em to hell cuz he can...)

4. God admitted he was a jelous god, soo how can he say he is jelous, and perfect at the same time? doesnt make sence to me so somthing in the bible is wrong... and if we know there are things wrong in the bible. We dont know what we really can or cannot trust.

5. If he truly loved us, why would he make it possible to sin, its not like we would care either way if we didnt know what it was. Its not like this weeds out the bad people, If there was no sin, there would be no bad people.

Now I was formerly a christian, I was raised in a christian home, went to church every week. I did believe what i was being taught... but slowly i started thinking about it and questioning things (somthing most christians think they do but dont.) And I honestly dont believe any of the religions or theories out ther about how the world/universe got here. I dont know, frankly dont care that much. I'm here to live my life while im here and have fun doin it. Nit as it stands, I consider myself an aithiest and dont belive in a god.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BARREL BREAK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 August 2006 at 5:48pm
Originally posted by Clark Kent Clark Kent wrote:

Originally posted by bassist11 bassist11 wrote:


but atheism isn't logical either. how can you prove that there is no god?



Hard to disagree with that...

I think there's a basic misunderstanding here. As an atheist, I don't have to prove there is no god. Atheism isn't the belief that there is no god, it is the lack of belief.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cedric Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 August 2006 at 5:48pm
Isn't it ignorant to believe everything you're told?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oreomann33 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 August 2006 at 5:50pm
Originally posted by Cedric Cedric wrote:

Isn't it ignorant to believe everything you're told?

But Cedric, isn't thinking for yourself hardwork?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clark Kent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 August 2006 at 5:51pm

Originally posted by BARREL BREAK BARREL BREAK wrote:

 I think there's a basic misunderstanding here. As an atheist, I don't have to prove there is no god. Atheism isn't the belief that there is no god, it is the lack of belief.

I would have to disagree - atheism specifically and literally means "un-god-ism".  It is not the mere lack of belief, but the specific belief that there is no god.  Simple non-belief falls into the larger category of agnosticism.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote __sneaky__ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 August 2006 at 5:57pm
Originally posted by Clark Kent Clark Kent wrote:

Originally posted by BARREL BREAK BARREL BREAK wrote:

 I think there's a basic misunderstanding here. As an atheist, I don't have to prove there is no god. Atheism isn't the belief that there is no god, it is the lack of belief.

I would have to disagree - atheism specifically and literally means "un-god-ism".  It is not the mere lack of belief, but the specific belief that there is no god.  Simple non-belief falls into the larger category of agnosticism.

Im gunna have to agree with Clark, Agnostic is more of what your goin for BB
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jim Paint Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 August 2006 at 5:57pm
Originally posted by __sneaky__ __sneaky__ wrote:

My thing with "god" is... I'f I'm to truly believe what the bible says. then God is the biggest serial killer and hypocrite to have ever exsisted.

1. The 5th commandment states thou shalt not murder, well then what do you call flooding the entire planet and killing everyone but 8 people... and not to mention all the other instances like when he sent a storm of fire to wipe out those 2 cities. The bible says its cuz everybody was wicked and evil and junk... they're practicing god's promise of free will, if he didnt want us to sin dont give us the option.

2. There is absolutly NO proof that there is or ever has been a god. I mean really... how is there gunna be a random magicall man who has always been in exsistance and got bored one day and created this.

3. (styro kinda beat me to this one with that whole love his people yet send em to hell cuz he can...)

4. God admitted he was a jelous god, soo how can he say he is jelous, and perfect at the same time? doesnt make sence to me so somthing in the bible is wrong... and if we know there are things wrong in the bible. We dont know what we really can or cannot trust.

5. If he truly loved us, why would he make it possible to sin, its not like we would care either way if we didnt know what it was. Its not like this weeds out the bad people, If there was no sin, there would be no bad people.

Now I was formerly a christian, I was raised in a christian home, went to church every week. I did believe what i was being taught... but slowly i started thinking about it and questioning things (somthing most christians think they do but dont.) And I honestly dont believe any of the religions or theories out ther about how the world/universe got here. I dont know, frankly dont care that much. I'm here to live my life while im here and have fun doin it. Nit as it stands, I consider myself an aithiest and dont belive in a god.



Erm, have you ever talked to someone in your church about those reasons?

There really are good answers for that.





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