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born ghey?

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battlefreak View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote battlefreak Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 August 2006 at 3:17pm
My argument is that its still completly idiotic to assume its a gene or a choice because there have been studys that have tried to prove it was gene but they were also coverd with flaws, and other studies indicated that there was no gene, so in my veiw its still to be proven either way and we shouldnt just assume
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brihard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 August 2006 at 3:22pm
Whew. Thanks Gatyr. I was afraid I was gonna have to go look up my psych notes again.

Quote anyone who says they were born homosexual and cant help it are complete and total idiots


OK, you've made a claim. You seem to imply that the concept of 'born ghey' is a falsehood, in face of blatant biol;ogical evidence to the contrary.

If you want to maintain the scrap of dignity and credibility you still have in this thread, let's see some solid evidence, analysis, logic, and reasoning from you.

Right off the bat I'll tell you I have no interest in a moral approach- none of those hold water in the face of individual liberty and rights, as far as I'm concerned. So give me solid reasoning as to why it's so impossible for people to be born ghey. Or, more specifically, why "anyone who says they were born homosexual and cant help it are complete and total idiots".

I can anticipate your first argument already- you'll claim that they could fight it if they really wanted to, and act heterosexual. Of course they could; many ghey people are forced to do that by societal prejudice and stigma. But that's not reasoning by any means. There is still an implicit statement here that being homosexual is somehow morally wrong, and that they ought to fight temptation the same way someone who were psychologically prone to pedophilia or to outbursts of physical violence would.

So based on your education and research, and with the application of logic, convince me why these people are idiots. Or retract your statement, and with it your foot from your mouth.
"Abortion is not "choice" in America. It is forced and the democrats are behind it, with the goal of eugenics at its foundation."

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brihard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 August 2006 at 3:24pm
Originally posted by battlefreak battlefreak wrote:

My argument is that its still completly idiotic to assume its a gene or a choice because there have been studys that have tried to prove it was gene but they were also coverd with flaws, and other studies indicated that there was no gene, so in my veiw its still to be proven either way and we shouldnt just assume


Sorry for the double post.

Genetic? No. You clearly didn't READ the thread, or the reply of mine from another thread that Gatyr posted.

It's hormonal. the hormones that regulate mental and physical sexual development in a fetus are very carefully balanced, and an imbalance can cause a physical expression of the amle gender while the brain develops as female, or vice-versa. READ that reply, adn then come back adn try again. You've utterly failed so far.
"Abortion is not "choice" in America. It is forced and the democrats are behind it, with the goal of eugenics at its foundation."

-FreeEnterprise, 21 April 2011.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote battlefreak Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 August 2006 at 3:27pm
u have a good point but i was just responding to the post in general

Edited by battlefreak - 20 August 2006 at 3:28pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brihard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 August 2006 at 3:30pm
OK, but you've still not given your claim any backbone, and your alst reply here was a cop out- In essence, I have a good point but you still think you're right and are trying to diplomatically weasel out of having to debate it.

I'm still waiting.
"Abortion is not "choice" in America. It is forced and the democrats are behind it, with the goal of eugenics at its foundation."

-FreeEnterprise, 21 April 2011.

Yup, he actually said that.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DBibeau855 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 August 2006 at 3:34pm
Homosexuality is not a genetic trait. How do you think that traight would survive? Its about as likely a traight as humans having wings.

We have no idea what causes homosexuality, wether its a traumatic event in childhood, such as a same sex rape or some sort of abuse, or a chemicle bath during the early stages of pregnancy, such as the chemicles that decide the sex of a child early on.

This is largely a Nature Vs. Nurture argument, scientists and scholors havent figured this out, they still argue about it to this day.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brihard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 August 2006 at 3:38pm
Originally posted by DBibeau855 DBibeau855 wrote:

Homosexuality is not a genetic trait. How do you think that traight would survive? Its about as likely a traight as humans having wings.

We have no idea what causes homosexuality, wether its a traumatic event in childhood, such as a same sex rape or some sort of abuse, or a chemicle bath during the early stages of pregnancy, such as the chemicles that decide the sex of a child early on.

This is largely a Nature Vs. Nurture argument, scientists and scholors havent figured this out, they still argue about it to this day.


You just very succinctly proved that you too have not read the rather thorough explanation I posted of it earlier. Go back, read it, then try again. I'll say it again- it's not genetic (so far as has been determined), it's hormonal during foetal development.

Now, there MAY be hormonal anomalies that are carried as a recessive or passive gene that also contribute, but keep in mind that many ghey people do in fact end up reproducing- either from wanting to conform to the idea of 'normal', or because they still want kids. There is ample opportunity for any genes possibly involved to transmit, the same way genes for all kinds of other abnormalities continue. Yes, homosexuality if entirely genetic would be selective against itself, but you're deliberately playing stupid and ignoring the nomber of ghey people who have kids.


Edited by brihard - 20 August 2006 at 3:38pm
"Abortion is not "choice" in America. It is forced and the democrats are behind it, with the goal of eugenics at its foundation."

-FreeEnterprise, 21 April 2011.

Yup, he actually said that.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DracoPlasm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 August 2006 at 3:41pm
No one is born ghey....thats a pathetic excuse they use to take the blame off themselves for being a real screwed up person

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DBibeau855 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 August 2006 at 3:42pm
Look, i know more about the subject than an article will tell you. I have ghey people in my family, one was born this way, another turned this way because of a traumatic event, and another switched over later in life.

... I cant ignore the number of ghey people that have children... my biological father is ghey..

Edited by DBibeau855 - 20 August 2006 at 3:44pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DracoPlasm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 August 2006 at 3:42pm
Originally posted by brihard brihard wrote:

OK, but you've still not given your claim any backbone, and your alst reply here was a cop out- In essence, I have a good point but you still think you're right and are trying to diplomatically weasel out of having to debate it.I'm still waiting.


People have different opinions then you so quit acting like a jackhole and get off his back and quit trying to get him to agree with you

Edited by DracoPlasm - 20 August 2006 at 3:43pm

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DeTrevni Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 August 2006 at 3:56pm

But this isn't an argument of opinions, we're debating possible facts. Namecalling and slander do not help points. Let's keep it civil.

(You too Bri...)



Edited by DeTrevni - 20 August 2006 at 3:57pm
Evil Elvis: "Detrevni is definally like a hillbilly hippy from hell"

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brihard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 August 2006 at 4:05pm
Originally posted by DracoPlasm DracoPlasm wrote:

Originally posted by brihard brihard wrote:

OK, but you've still not given your claim any backbone, and your alst reply here was a cop out- In essence, I have a good point but you still think you're right and are trying to diplomatically weasel out of having to debate it.I'm still waiting.


People have different opinions then you so quit acting like a jackhole and get off his back and quit trying to get him to agree with you
'

Your turn, son.

You have a flawed understanding of the nature of the very argument. This is nto a matter of opinion, it is a matter of fact or truth. Anyone can have any opinion they like, from the inane and idiotic to the interesting and informed.

Opinion is "That was a lousy movie", while fact is "that movie made $142 million". Opinion is "Hitler wasn't a bad guy", while fact is "Hitler is responsible for the death of five to seven million jews. Opinion is "I think homosexuality is wrong" while fact is "Homosexuality ahs a demonstrably biological cause."

I've no interest in your or his opinions, as they are not based on fact.

Originally posted by DracoPlasm DracoPlasm wrote:

No one is born ghey....thats a pathetic excuse they use to take the blame off themselves for being a real screwed up person


That is not an opinion. That is an attempt at a statement of fact by you. In fact, you claim two things: First, that noone is born ghey, and second, that ghey people are 'screwed up'. Neither of which can be argued with any validity.

Fact, as I alluded, is synonymous with truthful. We are arguing about the biological truth of the nature of homosexuality. I have conclusively demonstrated biological evidence as to why it is in fact a matter of development biology and psychology, and not a choice.

With the link between fact and truth established, there are two possbilities to describe anything to the contrary: Ignorance, and a lie. I will assume that you are not a liar, and are merely ignorant and rpejudiced by your environment. At the age of sixteen that's not a surprise- your official education is not sufficiently advanced to have gotten into the biology of this, though I'll admit I'm disappointed that you'd not try to independantly research something before forming such strong opinions and trying to present them wrongly as fact.

I don't care if you agree with me- as agreement is also a matter of opinion. But truth simply is; in and of itself. You can choose not to agree with the truth, but you only reflect badly on yourself by doing so; it's like denying that cancer has a biological cause, or saying that people choose to grow red hair.






DeTrevni- I would point out that you made an erroneous statement- "Possible facts" is in an of itself a contradiction. Facts are facts, period. I simply present all the evidence necessary that a reasonable and reasonably intelligent person should be able to understand and accept the facts.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Predatorr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 August 2006 at 4:06pm
brihard- so wether its a chemical inbalance, or pheremone imbalance, what im getting from you is that its possible to be born ghey, but not from genes, but from a chemical inbalance.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DeTrevni Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 August 2006 at 4:08pm

Dirty pool, right there Brihard. Playing technicalities ain't cool.

I deliberately said "possible facts" simply because there has not been a consentual agreement.

Fact: There were dinosaurs.

Possible Fact: Dinosaurs died because of a meteor.

It's not opinion, but it's not completely fact yet either, so it's a possible fact.



Edited by DeTrevni - 20 August 2006 at 4:09pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DBibeau855 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 August 2006 at 4:14pm
Originally posted by Predatorr Predatorr wrote:

brihard- so wether its a chemical inbalance, or pheremone imbalance, what im getting from you is that its possible to be born ghey, but not from genes, but from a chemical inbalance.


Yup. But it is entirely possible for a person to be born straight, then turn homosexualy due to a traumatic psychological event.

Edited by DBibeau855 - 20 August 2006 at 4:15pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brihard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 August 2006 at 4:14pm
Originally posted by Predatorr Predatorr wrote:

brihard- so wether its a chemical inbalance, or pheremone imbalance, what im getting from you is that its possible to be born ghey, but not from genes, but from a chemical inbalance.  


That's what's known to date. I'm not current on what they've done in terms of researching genetic causation of those hormone imbalances.

DeTrev, I'm still gonna have to disagree with you. The facts are clear. A lot fo people just don't want to accept them, or aren't willing to study it and look into it. This has been part of my education, and I've shown my willingness to back up what I say with something concrete.
"Abortion is not "choice" in America. It is forced and the democrats are behind it, with the goal of eugenics at its foundation."

-FreeEnterprise, 21 April 2011.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DeTrevni Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 August 2006 at 4:16pm
That's not what I said. I said it was hormonic on the third post in this thread, so I agree with you. I'm just trying to be the peace keeper here before things turn into a flame war, so I used the term "possible."
Evil Elvis: "Detrevni is definally like a hillbilly hippy from hell"

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brihard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 August 2006 at 4:18pm
Fair enough. I'll drop it.
"Abortion is not "choice" in America. It is forced and the democrats are behind it, with the goal of eugenics at its foundation."

-FreeEnterprise, 21 April 2011.

Yup, he actually said that.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Benjichang Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 August 2006 at 4:25pm
Genetics is a lot more complicated than Punnet squares.
It probably is genetic IMO. But just because it's genetic, doesn't necessarily mean that it's hereditary. It could be some kind of gene or chromosomal mutation.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tae Kwon Do Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 August 2006 at 5:22pm
Originally posted by brihard brihard wrote:

Fair enough. I'll drop it.
\


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Try to argue out of that one.
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