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YOUR GOING TO HATE THIS THREAD

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote You Wont See Me Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 July 2006 at 3:54pm
Originally posted by tippya5extreme tippya5extreme wrote:

Originally posted by sinisterNorth sinisterNorth wrote:

kinda like your existence on this forum...

 

look dude, i know this thread is pointless. and shut up about my existence here. ive answered allot of peoples questions..so stop being a looser and go treat someone else like crap



I've helped probably 20-30 times as many people as you, but you dont see me making pointless threads like this.

Mod notified. This thread is considered spam.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DeTrevni Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 July 2006 at 4:16pm
Originally posted by Bruce A. Frank Bruce A. Frank wrote:

Originally posted by DeTrevni DeTrevni wrote:

^^^ what'd i do?

Punctuation and capitalization mistakes. The word "im" is a misspelling of "I'm." Failure to capitalize the first word of a sentence is a spelling error.

Okay, just for you Bruce, I'll try my hardest to get my punctuation right.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MeanMan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 July 2006 at 4:59pm

Tippya5extreme cant even spell loser right


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hybrid-sniper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 July 2006 at 5:00pm
Originally posted by sinisterNorth sinisterNorth wrote:

This thread was pointless, kinda like your existence on this forum...

Bwahahaha. QFT.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote estcstpnt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 July 2006 at 10:50pm
Originally posted by DeTrevni DeTrevni wrote:

Originally posted by Styro Folme Styro Folme wrote:

  hippocrite.

I love hippo's. Oh, and this thread. Dumbest one I've EVER seen.

Oh yeah...300 POSTS!



Edited by estcstpnt - 10 July 2006 at 10:51pm
Thinking about it...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Styro Folme Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 July 2006 at 11:39pm
Originally posted by DeTrevni DeTrevni wrote:

true...

despite the fact hippocrite is spelled "hypocrite"

you know im your spell checker.

well, then hippos>hippies>hypos.... 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RavenGuard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 July 2006 at 11:48am
what in God's name is going on....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MoNkeY Hunter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 July 2006 at 3:20pm
Originally posted by DeTrevni DeTrevni wrote:

Originally posted by Styro Folme Styro Folme wrote:

  hippocrite.

It looks hungry........ And not amused. Its facal expression says it wants to tear all sniper Wannabes a new one.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KoolKidsKlan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 July 2006 at 12:25am

Ok, Let's just pet some kitties.. And gerbils.. And all get along .

You say you're friend "snipes".. Well I guess he just sits around in a bush long-balling people but is that even fun?

Most people here play speedball.. Me included.. And I can't keep in one spot. Also, multiple times people have asked about snipers.. And the people who "snipe" in paintball aren't really what a real sniper is.



Edited by KoolKidsKlan - 12 July 2006 at 12:31am


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pooperscooper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 July 2006 at 12:36am
Originally posted by KoolKidsKlan KoolKidsKlan wrote:

You say you're friend "snipes".. Well I guess he just sits around in a bush long-balling people but is that even fun?


DICTIONARY.COM:
snip·er  (snpr)
n.
  1. A skilled military shooter detailed to spot and pick off enemy soldiers from a concealed place.
  2. One who shoots at other people from a concealed place.


So sniping is not neccisarily(sp?) long distance

So it is possible in paintball

So everybody freaks out for no reason when people say "sniper"

So everybody needs to take a chill pill

 
Chuck Norris doesnt read books, he stares them down untill he gets the information he wants.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hybrid-sniper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 July 2006 at 1:36am
Originally posted by pooperscooper pooperscooper wrote:

Originally posted by KoolKidsKlan KoolKidsKlan wrote:

You say you're friend "snipes".. Well I guess he just sits around in a bush long-balling people but is that even fun?


DICTIONARY.COM:
snip·er  (snpr)
n.
  1. A skilled military shooter detailed to spot and pick off enemy soldiers from a concealed place.
  2. One who shoots at other people from a concealed place.



So sniping is not neccisarily(sp?) long distance

So it is possible in paintball

So everybody freaks out for no reason when people say "sniper"

So everybody needs to take a chill pill

 

Oh my god. You did not just try that.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DeTrevni Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 July 2006 at 1:37am

Highlight the blank boxes.

Originally posted by Snake6 Snake6 wrote:

...

The History of Military Sniping, and how it relates to the Game of Paintball.

Ok. So I got bored, and I am sick and tried of this stupid sniper debate. I got a Barnes and Noble gift card for Christmas, and didn’t know what else to get so I picked up several books on Military Snipers. Here are my findings.

< -- Note: Due to a problem with my code, you have to Highlight my rifle comparison tables to see them. It’s a bother, but if someone knows how to fix it, PM me. -- >

First lets go over the basics of what a sniper is, and what a sniper is not.

“A sniper…is considered a specialist, whose prime function is to kill selected high value targets at long range using superior skill and armament. A sharpshooter, by contrast, is a rifleman (proficient or otherwise) who acts in an opportunist manner, taking shots at the enemy when the chance arises”

From SNIPER by Adrian Gilbert

Keep this in your mind as you read the rest of the article.

The American Revolution (1775-83)

Sniping first came onto the battlefield during the American Revolution. Standard infantry of this period were equipped with “Brown Bess” smoothbore muskets. The Continental Congress approves 10 independent companies, armed with long rifles. The men of these companies were the first snipers.

Comparison between the “Brown Bess” musket, and the Long Rifle.

“A soldiers musket, if not exceedingly ill bored (as many are), will strike the figure of a man at 80 yards: it may even at 100, but a soldier must be very unfortunate indeed who shall be wounded by a common musket at 150 yards, provided that the antagonist aims at him; as to firing at a man at 200 yards, with a common, musket, you might as well fire at the moon.” –British Major Hanger, on the “Brown Bess” musket

 In contrast, the American Long Rifle (as carried by the Irregular companies), was effective in ranges up to 300 yards, and headshots could be achieved at 200. At these ranges American Snipers picked-off high ranking British Officers. During the battle of Saratoga an American sniper brought down British General Simon Frasier from a range of 300 yards. Despite its advantages the long rifle had several disadvantages. Its slow reload time(2 shots a minute), and lack of bayonet fixture made it useful only as a skirmisher weapon, not for use as a standard infantry weapon.

Brown Bess

Long Rifle

Range:

80 Yards

300 Yards

Muzzle Velocity:

1100-1300 fps

 ~1600fps

Ammunition:

.75 caliber ball

.40-.70 caliber ball

As you can see from the table, the Rifle outranged the common muskets of the time by over 200 yards. Also the muzzle velocity of the Rifle was much higher than that of the Brown Bess.

The War of Northern Aggression (American Civil War) (1861-65)

During the Civil War, the standard infantry rifles were the Enfield(for the south), and the Springfield(for the north). These were muzzleloading rifles with effective ranges up to 500 yards. The confederacy managed to acquire Witworth and Kerr rifles from Europe for their snipers. These rifles had an effective range of well over 1200 yards, and hits were reported at over 1500 yards.

Confederate Snipers were selected in a manner which has been used to select snipers in most present wars. The best men from each infantry regiment entered into shooting competitions. They were required to hit man-sized boards at 500 yards. The best shooters were given the prized Kerr and Witworth rifles. They then went through extensive training in the use of these rifles.

The snipers were warned never to get within 400 yards of the enemy, but to use their superior range, to keep the enemy at a safe distance.

Springfield/Enfield

Kerr & Withworth

Range:

 1200+ yards

500 Yards

Muzzle Velocity:

Ammunition:

.451 Hexagonal Slug

 

World War I (1914-18)

US Snipers during World War I used modified, and accurized versions of  the standard service rifle the Springfield 1903, equipped with 2 to 4 power scopes. Snipers during the war mostly sniped from behind the MLR, the main trench line. These snipers were Infantrymen taken off the line, and equipped with scoped rifles. With their rifles they could pick the enemy off 3 or 4 trench lines back from the MLR. The marksmanship standard for infantry of the time was to be able to hit a standing man from around 100 yards. The snipers were trained to hit targets from over 500 yards.

World War II (1938-45)

World War II snipers were selected in different manners during the war. I will concentrate on the Marine Corps Snipers trained at Green’s Farm because the documentation of this school and its snipers is the best. There, snipers were instructed in 5 week courses in marksmanship, camouflage, and field craft. They were trained to approach a target using stealth and to eliminate the target from long distances. These snipers were required to hit a moving target at 500 yards, and to hit a stationary target at 1000. They were equipped much the same way as snipers in WWI  were. These snipers used accurized  versions of the M1903 Springfield service rifle, the A1 or A3 variants equipped with 2 or 4 power scopes. Marine Infantry qualified at 500 yards.

M1 Garand

M1903A3

Range

500 yards

1000yards

Ammunition

.30-06

.30-06

Korea (1950-53)

Korea, in the latter part of the war turned into a bogged down war of attrition, looking somewhat like the trench warfare of WWI. This, alongside Korea’s terrain of rolling hills combined to make it prime sniper territory. Sniping tactics in Korea did not change much from the tactics of WWII so I will not elaborate on them. The rifles also remained the same. Snipers in Korea were equipped with 1903A3 Variant Springfield’s, and National Match M1’s(which were used in competition shooting because they were more accurate than the standard M1) Equipped with 4 power scopes(the M1D model). The accuracy of the M1 was not as good as that of the Springfield, due to the need to offset the scope, and have major Eye Relief built-in to the rifle due to the Clip Feed of the M1. These M1’s still were able to reach ranges of 500 yards accurately. In Korea the use of the .50 caliber round for sniping was first seen. M2 Machine Guns mounted with a 10 power scope were able to reach ranges of 2800 yards effectively, Snipers also experimented with .55 Caliber Boy’s antitank rifles modified to take .50 caliber rounds, and mounted with scopes which had the same range as the M2, but was able to be carried by a man whereas the M2’s were limited to fixed positions.

M1D Sniper Model

M1903A3 Sniper

M2 Machine Gun

Range

500 yards

1000 yards

2500 yards

Ammunition

.30-06

.30-06

.50 Caliber

 

Vietnam (1965-75)

Vietnam is the perfect example of how a sniper can be employed during combat. The restrictive ROE and vast open fields and rice paddy’s of Vietnam became prime sniper territory. The Marine Corps and the Army both Fielded Snipers. Army snipers were equipped with accurized versions of the M14 service rifle, accurate out to 700 yards. The Marine Corps fielded snipers equipped with Winchester Model 70 Hunting rifles firing the .30-06 cartridge, and later in the war snipers carried the M40, which fired the standard 7.62x51mm(.308) cartridge both of these rifles had an effective range of over 1000 yards. Also snipers used modified M2 .50 caliber machine guns, fitted with scopes. These were accurate to ranges out to 2500 yards. Normal infantry of the time fired the M16 Assault Rifle, and the enemy fired the AK-47 assault rifle. These rifles were designed for infantry combat which takes place in ranges of only around 200 yards, and can only be fired accurately up to 500 yards. Thus snipers were able to operate with impunity from beyond the range of effective return fire of the enemy.

M16

Winchester 70

M40

M14 Sniper

Range

500 yards

1000 yards

1000 Yards

700 yards

Ammunition

5.56mm

.30-06

7.62x51mm

7.62x51mm

Now through all these wars several things have remained in common among snipers, lets analyze these facts:

A sniper acts independently from standard infantry, not as a part of a unit but in a one or two man team.

This is possible in paintball, most of the time in scenario games, I am alone behind enemy lines trying to accomplish a mission. But you do very little if any tactical good for your team waiting in one spot for an entire game, hoping a target of high-value (such as the opposing general) walks by.

A sniper does not act at random, he selects targets of high value and eliminates them.

Targets of High Value in a military sense are:

  1. Officers:
    • Generals
    • Field Grade officers
    • Company Grade officers
  2. Forward Observers
  3. Crew Served Weaponry:
    • Heavy Machine Guns
    • Artillery Batteries
    • Mortar Crews
  4. Non Commissioned Officers
  5. Radiomen

Targets of High Value in Paintball:

  1. Generals
  2. Tank Crewman (if there are tanks)
  3. Um…. Yeah… that’s all I can think of...

The problem with selecting high value targets in a scenario paintball game is, there are very few. The vast majority of players play independently, not under any command and they do what they want. What officers and team captains there are do not look any different than any other players.

The Sniper fires at targets from beyond the range of return fire by the standard infantry weapons, or from distances that were beyond the training of the normal infantryman.

As you can see from the diagrams of the Sniper Rifles of the Period in comparison to the standard issue infantry weapons, the sniper rifle always has a great deal more range than infantry weapons, and the sniper has been trained to an accuracy standard that is beyond that of standard infantry training.

This is where sniping in paintball fails. All paintball markers except those equipped with the Flatline or Apex systems fire the same distance, around 25 yards or 75 feet. The Flatline will reach ranges of up to 150 ft, but because the ball loses velocity at the same rate as a normal paintball, the chances of getting a break, or a single accurate shot at those ranges are close to zero.

The sniper uses a single accurate shot to take his targets down.

The ammunition expended to kill ratio of a sniper in Vietnam was 1.7 rounds per kill. The average infantryman expended 50,000 rounds per confirmed kill.

It is possible to take targets down with a single shot in paintball. However it is near impossible to eliminate a target with a single shot from beyond the effective range of return fire by the enemy.

A sniper uses camouflage and concealment to hide himself from his enemies to eliminate his targets.

No qualms with this, it can be done. Most every scenario paintball player does it. Using camouflage doe not make you sniper.

Now as you can see there are several places where sniping fails in paintball. Now look at the definition of a Sharpshooter:

“A sharpshooter… is a rifleman (proficient or otherwise) who acts in an opportunist manner, taking shots at the enemy when the chance arises”

From SNIPER by Adrian Gilbert

Ok, this looks a little more feasible in the game of paintball than the sniper definition doesn’t it?

For paintball purposes we can strike rifleman, because there are no rifles in paintball.

“who acts in an opportunist manner, taking shots at the enemy when the chance arises”

This sounds feasible. The definition of a sniper that Spec Ops puts forth is one of an “ambush player” that fires from concealment, using camouflage. The problem with the Spec Ops definition of a sniper is that it perfectly describes the definition of a sharpshooter in a military sense.

So we will set forth the definition of a Sharpshooter in paintball. This is what most of you would call a Sniper in paintball.

A sharpshooter takes shots from concealment, shoots at targets as the opportunity arises, and uses a marker that has the same range as everyone else’s. This is not a Sniper. This is a sharpshooter. You will never be a sniper in paintball simple ballistics prevent this from ever happening.

The fact of the matter is if you think you are a sniper in paintball, your terminology is wrong. The definition of a sharpshooter, fits paintball a lot closer that the definition of a sniper. But for those of you who insist that you are still snipers, look at an analogy: You work for a living. Your job is to go to people’s houses and businesses, to pick up their trash and take it to the dump. You drive a Garbage Truck. What would you be called, a Garbage Man, or a Professional Truck Driver?

You would be called a Garbage Man, would you not? As much as you would prefer to be called a Professional Truck Driver, everyone would call you a Garbage Man because it fits what you are doing better than the title Professional Truck Driver does.

The definition of Sharpshooter, or a Designated Marksman fits what you are doing in paintball a whole lot better than Sniper does. Stop fooling yourself.

References:

SNIPER- Adrian Gilbert

One Shot-One Kill- Charles W. Sasser and Craig Roberts

Marine Sniper- Charles Henderson

Authors Note: In my haste of writing this, I may have gotten some minor facts mixed up, or in the wrong place.

My definition > yours.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KoolKidsKlan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 July 2006 at 2:07am
Ok, first of all I said I guess he does that. Second, I was just saying it wouIdn't be fun for me. Anyway there's no reason to argue. :] Oh yeah and thanks Detrevni. You proved my point, lol:)

Edited by KoolKidsKlan - 12 July 2006 at 2:11am


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DeTrevni Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 July 2006 at 3:15am

Heh. I guess I kinda adopted Snake's old "non-sniper" list...

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pooperscooper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 July 2006 at 12:45pm
Ok your definition is alright i guess

Flatline/Apex = more distance than everyone else

My friend has a Flatty and gets one hit kills quite a bit (more than one in a day of paintball)

Distance + Efficiency + Concealment = sniper

Why cant that happen in paintball?

Everyone needs to chill

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tippya5extreme Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 July 2006 at 12:51pm
 i see you guys are going on about sniping.

tippya5extreme
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MeanMan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 July 2006 at 2:58pm

atleast once a month this happens

this one isnt as bad as usual though


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pooperscooper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 July 2006 at 12:33am
Yes this one is going quite well

We should make a big one and sticky it

I see no one has protested to my last post
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bruce A. Frank Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 July 2006 at 2:31am

Originally posted by pooperscooper pooperscooper wrote:

Yes this one is going quite well

We should make a big one and sticky it

I see no one has protested to my last post

Don't sticky anything about snipers. Those who are, know it. Those who deny it...are targets. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DeTrevni Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 July 2006 at 2:54am

Originally posted by pooperscooper pooperscooper wrote:

Yes this one is going quite well

We should make a big one and sticky it

I see no one has protested to my last post

If you really think I should, then I will. I was gonna let it die, but whatever. Okay, super, you have an Apex/Flatline. You can outrange others. You're almost there! You're dressed head to toe in ghillie. Still pushin'! You see a target, you pull the trigger, and a hailstorm of return fire is comming back. You're out. Even if they can't see your ghillie-ness, they know where you shot from. In all honesty, I wish "sniper" were a real position in paintball, because it sounds fun. But it just doesn't apply. Even if you somehow manage to use the 20 or so extra feet, which is surprisingly rare, what are the odds anyone ever travels alone in the woods? This by itself seems to eliminate the use of "sniping." You can't expect to eliminate HVT's (high value targets) and not get hosed in the end. After all, you still are technically in the range of return fire, you just have a slight advantage. Also, read the sharpshooter segment towards the bottom. It makes so much more sense. 

In a more "compact" retort:

Originally posted by pooperscooper pooperscooper wrote:

Ok your definition is alright i guess

Flatline/Apex = more distance than everyone else

Ah, but still not enough to be safely out of the range for return fire.

My friend has a flatty and gets one hit kills quite a bit (more than one in a day of paintball)

Outside the range of a normal barrel? I bet most of his one-shotters are within normal distances.

Distance + Efficiency + Concealment = sniper

Why cant that happen in paintball?

As mentioned, read the "sharpshooter" section towards the bottom of my post.

Everyone needs to chill

NEVAR!!!1!

Plus, I want you to honestly tell me how fun it is boiling in crazy cammo laying on your gut hoping to the good lord some newb comes ambling past alone.



Edited by DeTrevni - 13 July 2006 at 3:05am
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