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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DeTrevni Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 June 2006 at 5:38pm

yeah! another sniper debate!

oh snake. you should have held on for just a few more days...

right.

highlight the blank boxes.

Originally posted by Snake6 Snake6 wrote:

...

The History of Military Sniping, and how it relates to the Game of Paintball.

Ok. So I got bored, and I am sick and tried of this stupid sniper debate. I got a Barnes and Noble gift card for Christmas, and didn’t know what else to get so I picked up several books on Military Snipers. Here are my findings.

< -- Note: Due to a problem with my code, you have to Highlight my rifle comparison tables to see them. It’s a bother, but if someone knows how to fix it, PM me. -- >

First lets go over the basics of what a sniper is, and what a sniper is not.

“A sniper…is considered a specialist, whose prime function is to kill selected high value targets at long range using superior skill and armament. A sharpshooter, by contrast, is a rifleman (proficient or otherwise) who acts in an opportunist manner, taking shots at the enemy when the chance arises”

From SNIPER by Adrian Gilbert

Keep this in your mind as you read the rest of the article.

The American Revolution (1775-83)

Sniping first came onto the battlefield during the American Revolution. Standard infantry of this period were equipped with “Brown Bess” smoothbore muskets. The Continental Congress approves 10 independent companies, armed with long rifles. The men of these companies were the first snipers.

Comparison between the “Brown Bess” musket, and the Long Rifle.

“A soldiers musket, if not exceedingly ill bored (as many are), will strike the figure of a man at 80 yards: it may even at 100, but a soldier must be very unfortunate indeed who shall be wounded by a common musket at 150 yards, provided that the antagonist aims at him; as to firing at a man at 200 yards, with a common, musket, you might as well fire at the moon.” –British Major Hanger, on the “Brown Bess” musket

 In contrast, the American Long Rifle (as carried by the Irregular companies), was effective in ranges up to 300 yards, and headshots could be achieved at 200. At these ranges American Snipers picked-off high ranking British Officers. During the battle of Saratoga an American sniper brought down British General Simon Frasier from a range of 300 yards. Despite its advantages the long rifle had several disadvantages. Its slow reload time(2 shots a minute), and lack of bayonet fixture made it useful only as a skirmisher weapon, not for use as a standard infantry weapon.

Brown Bess

Long Rifle

Range:

80 Yards

300 Yards

Muzzle Velocity:

1100-1300 fps

 ~1600fps

Ammunition:

.75 caliber ball

.40-.70 caliber ball

As you can see from the table, the Rifle outranged the common muskets of the time by over 200 yards. Also the muzzle velocity of the Rifle was much higher than that of the Brown Bess.

The War of Northern Aggression (American Civil War) (1861-65)

During the Civil War, the standard infantry rifles were the Enfield(for the south), and the Springfield(for the north). These were muzzleloading rifles with effective ranges up to 500 yards. The confederacy managed to acquire Witworth and Kerr rifles from Europe for their snipers. These rifles had an effective range of well over 1200 yards, and hits were reported at over 1500 yards.

Confederate Snipers were selected in a manner which has been used to select snipers in most present wars. The best men from each infantry regiment entered into shooting competitions. They were required to hit man-sized boards at 500 yards. The best shooters were given the prized Kerr and Witworth rifles. They then went through extensive training in the use of these rifles.

The snipers were warned never to get within 400 yards of the enemy, but to use their superior range, to keep the enemy at a safe distance.

Springfield/Enfield

Kerr & Withworth

Range:

 1200+ yards

500 Yards

Muzzle Velocity:

Ammunition:

.451 Hexagonal Slug

 

World War I (1914-18)

US Snipers during World War I used modified, and accurized versions of  the standard service rifle the Springfield 1903, equipped with 2 to 4 power scopes. Snipers during the war mostly sniped from behind the MLR, the main trench line. These snipers were Infantrymen taken off the line, and equipped with scoped rifles. With their rifles they could pick the enemy off 3 or 4 trench lines back from the MLR. The marksmanship standard for infantry of the time was to be able to hit a standing man from around 100 yards. The snipers were trained to hit targets from over 500 yards.

World War II (1938-45)

World War II snipers were selected in different manners during the war. I will concentrate on the Marine Corps Snipers trained at Green’s Farm because the documentation of this school and its snipers is the best. There, snipers were instructed in 5 week courses in marksmanship, camouflage, and field craft. They were trained to approach a target using stealth and to eliminate the target from long distances. These snipers were required to hit a moving target at 500 yards, and to hit a stationary target at 1000. They were equipped much the same way as snipers in WWI  were. These snipers used accurized  versions of the M1903 Springfield service rifle, the A1 or A3 variants equipped with 2 or 4 power scopes. Marine Infantry qualified at 500 yards.

M1 Garand

M1903A3

Range

500 yards

1000yards

Ammunition

.30-06

.30-06

Korea (1950-53)

Korea, in the latter part of the war turned into a bogged down war of attrition, looking somewhat like the trench warfare of WWI. This, alongside Korea’s terrain of rolling hills combined to make it prime sniper territory. Sniping tactics in Korea did not change much from the tactics of WWII so I will not elaborate on them. The rifles also remained the same. Snipers in Korea were equipped with 1903A3 Variant Springfield’s, and National Match M1’s(which were used in competition shooting because they were more accurate than the standard M1) Equipped with 4 power scopes(the M1D model). The accuracy of the M1 was not as good as that of the Springfield, due to the need to offset the scope, and have major Eye Relief built-in to the rifle due to the Clip Feed of the M1. These M1’s still were able to reach ranges of 500 yards accurately. In Korea the use of the .50 caliber round for sniping was first seen. M2 Machine Guns mounted with a 10 power scope were able to reach ranges of 2800 yards effectively, Snipers also experimented with .55 Caliber Boy’s antitank rifles modified to take .50 caliber rounds, and mounted with scopes which had the same range as the M2, but was able to be carried by a man whereas the M2’s were limited to fixed positions.

M1D Sniper Model

M1903A3 Sniper

M2 Machine Gun

Range

500 yards

1000 yards

2500 yards

Ammunition

.30-06

.30-06

.50 Caliber

 

Vietnam (1965-75)

Vietnam is the perfect example of how a sniper can be employed during combat. The restrictive ROE and vast open fields and rice paddy’s of Vietnam became prime sniper territory. The Marine Corps and the Army both Fielded Snipers. Army snipers were equipped with accurized versions of the M14 service rifle, accurate out to 700 yards. The Marine Corps fielded snipers equipped with Winchester Model 70 Hunting rifles firing the .30-06 cartridge, and later in the war snipers carried the M40, which fired the standard 7.62x51mm(.308) cartridge both of these rifles had an effective range of over 1000 yards. Also snipers used modified M2 .50 caliber machine guns, fitted with scopes. These were accurate to ranges out to 2500 yards. Normal infantry of the time fired the M16 Assault Rifle, and the enemy fired the AK-47 assault rifle. These rifles were designed for infantry combat which takes place in ranges of only around 200 yards, and can only be fired accurately up to 500 yards. Thus snipers were able to operate with impunity from beyond the range of effective return fire of the enemy.

M16

Winchester 70

M40

M14 Sniper

Range

500 yards

1000 yards

1000 Yards

700 yards

Ammunition

5.56mm

.30-06

7.62x51mm

7.62x51mm

Now through all these wars several things have remained in common among snipers, lets analyze these facts:

A sniper acts independently from standard infantry, not as a part of a unit but in a one or two man team.

This is possible in paintball, most of the time in scenario games, I am alone behind enemy lines trying to accomplish a mission. But you do very little if any tactical good for your team waiting in one spot for an entire game, hoping a target of high-value (such as the opposing general) walks by.

A sniper does not act at random, he selects targets of high value and eliminates them.

Targets of High Value in a military sense are:

  1. Officers:
    • Generals
    • Field Grade officers
    • Company Grade officers
  2. Forward Observers
  3. Crew Served Weaponry:
    • Heavy Machine Guns
    • Artillery Batteries
    • Mortar Crews
  4. Non Commissioned Officers
  5. Radiomen

Targets of High Value in Paintball:

  1. Generals
  2. Tank Crewman (if there are tanks)
  3. Um…. Yeah… that’s all I can think of...

The problem with selecting high value targets in a scenario paintball game is, there are very few. The vast majority of players play independently, not under any command and they do what they want. What officers and team captains there are do not look any different than any other players.

The Sniper fires at targets from beyond the range of return fire by the standard infantry weapons, or from distances that were beyond the training of the normal infantryman.

As you can see from the diagrams of the Sniper Rifles of the Period in comparison to the standard issue infantry weapons, the sniper rifle always has a great deal more range than infantry weapons, and the sniper has been trained to an accuracy standard that is beyond that of standard infantry training.

This is where sniping in paintball fails. All paintball markers except those equipped with the Flatline or Apex systems fire the same distance, around 25 yards or 75 feet. The Flatline will reach ranges of up to 150 ft, but because the ball loses velocity at the same rate as a normal paintball, the chances of getting a break, or a single accurate shot at those ranges are close to zero.

The sniper uses a single accurate shot to take his targets down.

The ammunition expended to kill ratio of a sniper in Vietnam was 1.7 rounds per kill. The average infantryman expended 50,000 rounds per confirmed kill.

It is possible to take targets down with a single shot in paintball. However it is near impossible to eliminate a target with a single shot from beyond the effective range of return fire by the enemy.

A sniper uses camouflage and concealment to hide himself from his enemies to eliminate his targets.

No qualms with this, it can be done. Most every scenario paintball player does it. Using camouflage doe not make you sniper.

Now as you can see there are several places where sniping fails in paintball. Now look at the definition of a Sharpshooter:

“A sharpshooter… is a rifleman (proficient or otherwise) who acts in an opportunist manner, taking shots at the enemy when the chance arises”

From SNIPER by Adrian Gilbert

Ok, this looks a little more feasible in the game of paintball than the sniper definition doesn’t it?

For paintball purposes we can strike rifleman, because there are no rifles in paintball.

“who acts in an opportunist manner, taking shots at the enemy when the chance arises”

This sounds feasible. The definition of a sniper that Spec Ops puts forth is one of an “ambush player” that fires from concealment, using camouflage. The problem with the Spec Ops definition of a sniper is that it perfectly describes the definition of a sharpshooter in a military sense.

So we will set forth the definition of a Sharpshooter in paintball. This is what most of you would call a Sniper in paintball.

A sharpshooter takes shots from concealment, shoots at targets as the opportunity arises, and uses a marker that has the same range as everyone else’s. This is not a Sniper. This is a sharpshooter. You will never be a sniper in paintball simple ballistics prevent this from ever happening.

The fact of the matter is if you think you are a sniper in paintball, your terminology is wrong. The definition of a sharpshooter, fits paintball a lot closer that the definition of a sniper. But for those of you who insist that you are still snipers, look at an analogy: You work for a living. Your job is to go to people’s houses and businesses, to pick up their trash and take it to the dump. You drive a Garbage Truck. What would you be called, a Garbage Man, or a Professional Truck Driver?

You would be called a Garbage Man, would you not? As much as you would prefer to be called a Professional Truck Driver, everyone would call you a Garbage Man because it fits what you are doing better than the title Professional Truck Driver does.

The definition of Sharpshooter, or a Designated Marksman fits what you are doing in paintball a whole lot better than Sniper does. Stop fooling yourself.

References:

SNIPER- Adrian Gilbert

One Shot-One Kill- Charles W. Sasser and Craig Roberts

Marine Sniper- Charles Henderson

Authors Note: In my haste of writing this, I may have gotten some minor facts mixed up, or in the wrong place.



Edited by DeTrevni - 26 June 2006 at 5:39pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote battlefreak Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 June 2006 at 6:46pm
good god detrevni ure set up for this arnt u lol
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Styro Folme Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 June 2006 at 8:35pm
it's a quote from another ultra-respected forumer (Snake6) who went somewhere for the military... who are we fighting again? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DeTrevni Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 June 2006 at 2:12am

i think i might have to carry on the anti sniper debates in memory of snake. it really is too bad.

who got control of the newb list again?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DsXz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 June 2006 at 9:05am
Dictionary.com is not a creditable source. sorry
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote paintballinbill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 June 2006 at 4:22pm

there are no snipers in paintball. at the best, they can be considered "opportunistic longballers." but to say that snipers use stealth to take out people, one at a time, is just stupid. do you think the rest of us walk into the woods with bright pink shirts, announcing our entrance?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote battlefreak Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 June 2006 at 8:53pm
hey paintball ure too late the debate has died down
personally i dont care if u call people snipers or not it dosent bother me, but i didnt kno people are so sensative about it my god
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DeTrevni Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 June 2006 at 8:57pm

why are people so sensitive about saying "merry christmas?"

why are people so sensitive about **edited** marriage?

there is no real reason people complain about it, as much as they think there is. it just offends people, and they say something about it.

its just touchy. avoid it.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DeTrevni Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 June 2006 at 10:22pm

Originally posted by battlefreak battlefreak wrote:

a bunch of crap about snipers in thoughts and opinions
i told you. but you did it anyway, and you now know what IBL (in before the lock) means.

good job



Edited by DeTrevni - 27 June 2006 at 10:22pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RavenGuard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 June 2006 at 11:59pm
Originally posted by battlefreak battlefreak wrote:

chaloopy stay on subject u retard


You don't have to be a jerk.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote battlefreak Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 June 2006 at 3:26pm
i wasent bein a jerk callin him a tard im jus picken on him
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FA22RaptorF22 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 June 2006 at 3:57pm
Originally posted by Styro Folme Styro Folme wrote:

flatlines arn't very accurate...



Heh...wrong.  They are picky...but accurate.  match them perfectly with paint and you can pick off a squirl off a fence numerous times.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DeTrevni Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 June 2006 at 5:18pm

2-things:

-the effort requried to make a flatline accurate is not worth it. a bigshot is accurate with more paint, more of the time. and a third the price too.

-last time someone went on about shootin squirrels, strikes were delivered, you sadistic little man.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DsXz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 June 2006 at 5:48pm
o snap son
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote battlefreak Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 June 2006 at 6:40pm
What effort there is none a put the flatline on a stock gun and it kicks ass
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DeTrevni Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 June 2006 at 9:48pm

a flatline increases distance by putting backspin on the ball. when it does this, the slightest variations on any paintball will cause it to fly off center. flying off center=not accurate. to get relative accuracy from a flatline, you need to get the perfect size. they say the best for the flatline is marballizers. marbs=about 80 or 90 bucks a case. have fun with that.

of course, even with the best paint, you have to tune the barrel. when you put it on, do you think its just gonna pop in straight? wrong yet again. you have to twist and turn the barrel until it is perfectly vertical, or the paint will shoot some random direction. flatline, while shooting far, is NOT more accurate than say a bigshot, regardless of what advertisements say.

quiz: the flatline is large bore. what size paint (small, medium or large) does the flatty use best?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FA22RaptorF22 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 June 2006 at 10:47pm
small diameter paint, ie: marbs.  Ive said this in numerous threads.  I like many barrels but i still love my flatty.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote S\/\/4T-L()G4N Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 June 2006 at 11:15pm
Originally posted by FA22RaptorF22 FA22RaptorF22 wrote:


Originally posted by Styro Folme Styro Folme wrote:

flatlines arn't very accurate...

Heh...wrong. They are picky...but accurate. match them perfectly with paint and you can pick off a squirl off a fence numerous times.


WRONG!


Originally posted by DeTrevni DeTrevni wrote:

a flatline increases distance by putting backspin on the ball. when it does this, the slightest variations on any paintball will cause it to fly off center. flying off center=not accurate. to get relative accuracy from a flatline, you need to get the perfect size. they say the best for the flatline is marballizers. marbs=about 80 or 90 bucks a case. have fun with that.


of course, even with the best paint, you have to tune the barrel. when you put it on, do you think its just gonna pop in straight? wrong yet again. you have to twist and turn the barrel until it is perfectly vertical, or the paint will shoot some random direction. flatline, while shooting far, is NOT more accurate than say a bigshot, regardless of what advertisements say.


quiz: the flatline is large bore. what size paint (small, medium or large) does the flatty use best?



WRONG AGAIN!

There is no matching of paint in the flatline. Decent quality, as small bore as possible paint is all that is needed.

Trevini, for being plat you should know a heck of a lot more. Or is this because you are plat because you post without reading anything? If the flatline isn't perfectly vertical it will shoot in random directions? NO NO NO! It will shoot consistantly in A SINGLE direction, just like any other barrel. Take a well tuned flatline, rotate it 45 degrees in a clockwise direction, this is going to mimik a poorly tuned flatline. Shoot rapidly. The balls don't do everywhere, they consistantly curve to the right.

Flatline isn't accurate? WRONG STILL! Bench tests by a highly regarded forum member (I believe it was KRL) show that a flatline shoots similar in accuracy to a progressive, bigshot, or JnJ at comperable ranges. People believe their flatlines are less accurate because the further away from the target you are, the more inherently inaccurate you are.   At 50-100 feet the flatline is just as accurate as any other barrel. At 100-150 feet you are outside of the EFFECTIVE range of a normal barrel. The accuracy goes downhill. Same with the flatline, but the ball is still well within the air and is continuing the travel instead of hitting the ground.

Think of accuracy as a cone with the barrel being at the apex. The further you get from the barrel, the wider the area the ball COULD potentially hit. The flatline is "less accurate" because the sides of the cone are at the same angle, but they are longer so they spread further.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FA22RaptorF22 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 June 2006 at 11:20pm
Originally posted by <span>S\/\/4T-L()G4N S\/\/4T-L()G4N wrote:

There is no matching of paint in the flatline. Decent quality, as small bore as possible paint is all that is needed.


what the frik did i just say above???????  small paint in my sense is matching paint to the flatty.  Ive had mine long enough to know.

THE LAYDOWN:  98 + flatty + small bore marbs + 280 fps = the flatline effect, which equals total and complete accuracy!


Edited by FA22RaptorF22 - 28 June 2006 at 11:21pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DeTrevni Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 June 2006 at 11:34pm
Originally posted by S\/\/4T-L()G4N S\/\/4T-L()G4N wrote:

Originally posted by FA22RaptorF22 FA22RaptorF22 wrote:


Originally posted by Styro Folme Styro Folme wrote:

flatlines arn't very accurate...

Heh...wrong. They are picky...but accurate. match them perfectly with paint and you can pick off a squirl off a fence numerous times.


WRONG!


Originally posted by DeTrevni DeTrevni wrote:

a flatline increases distance by putting backspin on the ball. when it does this, the slightest variations on any paintball will cause it to fly off center. flying off center=not accurate. to get relative accuracy from a flatline, you need to get the perfect size. they say the best for the flatline is marballizers. marbs=about 80 or 90 bucks a case. have fun with that.


of course, even with the best paint, you have to tune the barrel. when you put it on, do you think its just gonna pop in straight? wrong yet again. you have to twist and turn the barrel until it is perfectly vertical, or the paint will shoot some random direction. flatline, while shooting far, is NOT more accurate than say a bigshot, regardless of what advertisements say.


quiz: the flatline is large bore. what size paint (small, medium or large) does the flatty use best?



WRONG AGAIN!

There is no matching of paint in the flatline. Decent quality, as small bore as possible paint is all that is needed.

Trevini, for being plat you should know a heck of a lot more. Or is this because you are plat because you post without reading anything? If the flatline isn't perfectly vertical it will shoot in random directions? NO NO NO! It will shoot consistantly in A SINGLE direction, just like any other barrel. Take a well tuned flatline, rotate it 45 degrees in a clockwise direction, this is going to mimik a poorly tuned flatline. Shoot rapidly. The balls don't do everywhere, they consistantly curve to the right.

Flatline isn't accurate? WRONG STILL! Bench tests by a highly regarded forum member (I believe it was KRL) show that a flatline shoots similar in accuracy to a progressive, bigshot, or JnJ at comperable ranges. People believe their flatlines are less accurate because the further away from the target you are, the more inherently inaccurate you are.   At 50-100 feet the flatline is just as accurate as any other barrel. At 100-150 feet you are outside of the EFFECTIVE range of a normal barrel. The accuracy goes downhill. Same with the flatline, but the ball is still well within the air and is continuing the travel instead of hitting the ground.

Think of accuracy as a cone with the barrel being at the apex. The further you get from the barrel, the wider the area the ball COULD potentially hit. The flatline is "less accurate" because the sides of the cone are at the same angle, but they are longer so they spread further.

maybe the word random wasnt the best choice, but that is more or less not the point. i believe someone as experienced as you should know what i meant. it wont go the direction you are aiming, albeit they will constantly go in that direction. you are reading too much into that.

quote me where i said a barrel paint match. i said the perfect size, not match. that would mean getting a small diameter paint to the flatlines large bore. dont you think id know that? especially if im gonna jump out there and challenge others to the answer?

as far as accuracy, i never said it wasnt accurate. i just said its difficult to make it and keep it accurate. im not basing that off others tests. that is personal experience, from actually shooting with the barrel, in my hands, braced against me, and aiming at a target. not braced on a bench. the way you hold the gun has the same principle behind it as tuning the barrel. if you hold it off center which happens alot, its gonna curve that direction. field tests are surprisingly different then bench tests.

dont go insulting my credibility without even understanding what im saying.



Edited by DeTrevni - 28 June 2006 at 11:40pm
Evil Elvis: "Detrevni is definally like a hillbilly hippy from hell"

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