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This had better not pass

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Linus View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Linus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 June 2006 at 9:16pm
Thats the thing I dont like though.

The senators were too worried about re-election while all polls point to the fact that if given to the people, the majority of the people want an admendment banning **edited** marriage.

Oh well.. it will come back in due time. But until then, there are like 10 states banning it since Alabama joined today.




Now lets let this thread die.. it turned into a flamefest.

Edited by Linus - 07 June 2006 at 9:16pm

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clark Kent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 June 2006 at 9:22pm
You must be looking at different polls than me, Linus...   The ones I see say that a majority of Americans are opposed to **edited** marriage, but are also opposed to the constitutional amendment.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brihard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 June 2006 at 9:42pm
Originally posted by Linus Linus wrote:

Originally posted by brihard brihard wrote:




Linus: How dare you, of all people on this forum, call me a 'bigoted asshole'?


Wow...

You initial post that I commented on said:
Originally posted by Brihard Brihard wrote:

You can be against homosexual marraige becuase you choose to be, but you cannot claim that you can justify it or ratioanlize it by any moral standards notdependent on a religious blind faith. Morality must have some tangible foundation in the good and harm that it does people, and your views cannot in any way be justified. You simply hold them for whatever ignorant reason you do.



Lets break down my response, most notably "Bigoted asshole"

Bigoted = One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.

I am pefectly tolerant of those who differ, so long as they articulate considered points that adhgere to conventional moral and ethical stadnards- such as not harming people uncesessarily, or arbitrarily depriving them of rights. My intolerance of your opinion is based on the fact that it is morall reprehensible. I can agree to disagree on things like substance abuse and other 'victimless' issues, but when you would victimize what you yourself admit is fully 5 percent of the population (or 15 million Americans) simply because they do not share the same heterosexual preference you do, I cannot reconcile my views with yours.

Your own definition makes a flat out liar of you.

I am not 'strongly partial to my own group' in this case- I am not **edited**.
You, however, seem 'strongly partial' towards heterosexuals. Religion and race are irrelevant, as neither has any legitimate mroal authority, and this isn't even an issue of politics in my mind- this is simple human and civil rights. Strangely though, you seem unable to tolerate homosexual amrraiges- dare I say, intolerant of those who differ?

You called me and my views ignorant, meaning you're intolerant of my political views that are different then yours.

I am intolerant of your political views for the reasons I have stated over an over again- they are uninformed, ill considered, prejudicial, discriminatory, cruel, and simply unnecessarily restrictive to the rights of others- something that offends me greatly.

Hence bigot. If that isn't bigoted, then they need to redfine it.

I imagine a redefinition of bigot would be a source of comfort to you- I imagine that if youw ere in any way an honest person it would hit very close to home for you.

Asshole because you called me and my views ignorant.

Fine, I'm an asshole because I call a spade a spade. I imagine a lot of religious guys thought Copernicus was an asshole for advancing the heliocentric model fo the solar system. Definitely Martin Luther King was an asshole to a few. I'll gladly wear that label from a eprson such as yourself- I must be doing something right.

Hence, bigoted asshole.

Asshole perhaps. Bigot? Certianly not. I invite any of the very intellectual forum members to intervene as a neutral party and render a verdict on this.

Originally posted by Brihard Brihard wrote:

I have never once argued for anything but utter equality of rights and freedoms here,



Never denied that.

I see. So I am arguing for equal rights and freedoms, and you acknowledge that, so by strict logic the very nature of our conflict is an admission taht you are opposed to these notions. At least you've admitted where you're coming from now.

Quote while you are the one attempting to deny a fundamental human right to an entire significant portion of the population for no rational reason you've yet articulated.


Now, there you go.

"Significant" Since when is 5% significant? 5% is being very LIBERAL too.

15 million Americans is significant. 300,000,000 human beings is significant.

YOU want to deny OTHER peoples right to VOTE on this, are you not? Dont say no because you are.

That's entirely correct. No mob has the right to vote away my human rights, nor yours, nor those of homosexuals. 'Tyrrany of the amsses' is very much the case here. The average person has no tangible stake in the denial of rights to homosexuals. If there is no prospect of them being harmed by liberalization of rights, then they have no place crying for the option to vote against it.

You grossly misunderstand the concept of a 'right'. It is somethign you have by default, withheld legislatively only as a legal sanction or to protect a more highly valued right.

In your obfuscation of the debate you STILL have yet to provide a single good reason as to why homosexuals are NOT entitled to the same rights as anyone else.

I say let the people of the country vote on this. Majority of the US is against **edited** marriage. Get that through your head.

Sadly, 'the majority' or similar phrasings thereof have long been a rallying cry for the most heinous acts. Whether camouflaged as 'the people' or 'the fatherland', the opinion (often unconsidered and immoral) of the majority is never enough in and of itself to withold a right. To take a human or civil right from someone, it must be demonstrably justified that that is an act of justice that protects others from harm- the burden upon the eprson whose rights are infringed must be commesurate to the potential harm to be caused should they act on that right. The equation in this case clearly favours one side.

We are not Canada, YOU are. You guys are much more liberal on this matter, which is why you passed the **edited** marriage law allowing it.

Irrelevant. Moral is moral, and immoral is immoral, regardless of one's nationality.

Let the Senate pass the admendment, and send it to the people for ratification. If the people vote to uphold it, OBEY THEM and uphold it. If not, then DONT.

And if 'the people' were one day to have a swing of opinion to say that you personally would be held in chains upon their suffrage, merely because you happen to live at your street address, that then would also be justice? The population as a whole seldom has a true understanding of an issue. Each eprson is entitled to their own opinion- however they are NEVER entitled to their own set of facts.

Quote You have attempted and thoroughly failed to shoot down our arguments as to why it should be allowed, yet you have no better reason than you think itshould be so.



I've given a valid counter point to EVERY SINGLE point you have given.

I say it's a choice, so YOU say it's biological, so I say if it IS biological, it isnt meant to be. It's a mental problem, illness if you will.

I do not say it is biological. Neurologists, psychologists, biologists say it's linked to hormonal imbalance. I am relying on expert opinion as communicated to me in my studies of university psychology. Nonetheless, this is again an obfuscation form the fact that you have yet to provide a reason why homosexuals should not be granted the same rights as others. Don't even try the 'it's not natural' argument as you sit there tapping away on a computer, likely digesting processed food. Humanity has moved beyond simple biology.

Quote To attempt to cry bigotry becasue I have the gall to shoot down such an arrogant and ignorant opinion as the one you hold is pathetic.


How is that not bigotry right there?

Bigotry is unconsidered to be negative and irrational prejudice towards a group or people based on an arbitrary distinction. The distinction I make here in rebutting and debunking your opinions is very carefully considered. Rather than bigotry, you may wish to instead use the terms 'aggressive', 'inflammatory', or 'offensive'. On the losing end of anargument, one can quite easily beleive that any of thsoe would apply.

Quote "Social norms" is merely a catchall phrase used to describe thigns the way theya re, without making any effort to quantify the benefit of those norms. You keep trying to dismiss the relevance of it, but the inferiority of women, blacks, natives, and other groups were once 'social norms' as well.



Not once in any of my post did I mention ANYTHING about social norms.

This was a brief reply to Oldsoldier

Quote You claim that because homosexuality has biological causes, that it must be a mental deficiency


You're wrong yet again. I gave a counterpoint to your sides point saying it's biological.

Deficiency: A quality or attribute denoting a certain lacking or failing. That's my working definition, and it does not apply to the case at here. It may be a hormonal (NOT mental) abnormality with reproductive consequences, however it has nothing to do with sovereign legal agents entering into a contract with social and economic ramifications. Before you are tempted to argue that marriage is meant to foster families, I will point out the large number of childless marriages, adn children born out of wedlock.

It was a hypothetical response. I still say that it's a choice, but on the off chance that they are born like that, something in the brain is screwed up, and to deny that is to be naiive.

And you are wrong. Were you at the same level of education that I am you would know this, however this is no excuse for your ignorance- one should seek to educate oneself on a topic before one triesto argue it.


Quote - again you're showing your startling ignorance,


Again youre being an asshole insulting my intelligence. You absolutly refuse to admit that I make good counter-points to all your arguements

I refuse to admit that because I do not admit falsehoods. You have rebutted NOTHING. You have given only abstractions, false analogies, fallacies, and outright <poopy>.


Quote By your logic people with red hair or hemophilia should not be allowed to marry either.


Wow.. you just insulted my intelligence in the field of biology, and yet you come out as a complete idiot on that statement.

Red hair and hemophilia are RECESSIVE genes. NOT mental imbalances, but RECESSIVE genes.

If I have little intelligence in the field of biology, then I feel REAL bad for your biology teachers for wasting their time trying to teach you.

Recessive genes are genes, but are not dominate when compared to other genes. Brown hair is dominate to blonde and red. Get yours facts straight before you insult me.

There has not been any conclusive proof that homosexuality is a naturally occuring gene.

At no point did I bring up the specific biological mechanisms- however the precise biological functionings are irrelevant; the simple intention was to demosntrate that homosexuality is not generally a conscious choice. It is sufficient that in trying to argue this point you concede that there is a biological origin to homosexuality. the purpose of the analogy was to draw a similarity between different biological conditions that a person has no control over.


Quote Withholding rights of marriage to homosexuals simply becuase of who they are is twisted and backwards,


Marriage =/= right.

See the next section of reply...

Quote You have not and CANNOT gien any reason whatsoever - never mind one that can hold up to moral scrutiny - about why homosexuals should be denied any right any other person has.


NOT A GUANTEED RIGHT, get that through your head!

You are wrong.

Originally posted by United Nations Universal Decalration of Human Rights United Nations Universal Decalration of Human Rights wrote:


Article 16.

(1) Men and women of full age, without any limitation due to race, nationality or religion, have the right to marry and to found a family. They are entitled to equal rights as to marriage, during marriage and at its dissolution.


Your side ask "What harm does it do to you"

I rebuke, what harm does it do to you if they aren't married? NONE.



Quote You may choose to argue with me, but I will NOT tolerate attacks on my character


So, you can insult me and my intelligence, but I can't you? Hypocrit.

You misspelled hypocrite. And I am not attacking your intelligence- I am rebutting your facts, your logic, your opinions, and your education. You are plainly posessed of the potential to be quite intelligent shoudl you decide to educate yourself sufficiently, however you're out to lunch on just about every single thing you have uttered here.

Quote I, at leas,t am able to be morally and ethically consistent, and am willing to admit when I'm simply wrong.


There is really no right or wrong on this. This is an opinion ONLY matter. Your opinion wants marriage, mine doesnt.

The only right or wrong there can be is if it's nature vs nurture.

Entirely incorrect. It is always 'wrong' to arbitrarily deprive millions of people of a right fully enjoyed by many others for no tangible reason. Rights are an entitlement, not a privilege.

Quote You have repeatedly advocated oppression, unjustified suspension of civil adn human rights, and outright abuse across this and a variety of other debated topics. I think the majority of the forum will agree on this.


Tomato's.

But I disagree with the "majority" comment. A few "popular", albeit very out spoken, members yes, but not the majority. Not like it affects me anyhow.

That's funny. you've been advocating democracy quite often in this thread. I was more thinking of the smarter members, though- perhaps Plato's philosopher kings would be an apt analogy.

Quote Get over your twisted notions of right and wrong, and apply some consequentialist analysis to the idiotic convictions yous eem to hold in such high regard.


To me, the world is black and white, with only a FEW shades of gray.

There's right, wrong, morally reprehensible, illness, etc etc.

In closing I say this---- You're making such a big fuss about the privelges of a VERY SMALL amount of people, but youre denying the RIGHT, CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT of the people to vote on the matter.

Yet I'm the bad guy....

Really? I didn't realize there was an aritcle in the constitution that guaranteed the right of the majority to trample the rights of the minority. The constitutional rights are inclusive, not exclusive. The legislature may pass laws to suspend a citizen's rights as criminal sanctions or to prevent the infringement of the rights of others, however nowhere does it say 'the people' have the right to vote on individual liberties.

300 million people worldwide, and 15 million Americans is not a small number. I recall a line by Stalin: "When you kill one, it is a tragedy. When you kill ten million, it is a statistic."

I venture to guess that you are lost int he sheer enormity of the numbers of people affected by this?

Originally posted by HV HV wrote:

os, if all laws followed the rules set forth by the constitution, we would not have a need for the supreme court now would we? i say even if this passes, it will not last long at all.


You REALLY need to research Constitutional Law.


If the Senate passes the admendment and passes it on the the states for ratification to be a constitutional admendment, the courts cannot even THINK about touching it in any way shape or form. AT ALL.


There can be NO judicial review. Thats why they aren't making it a law, but an admendment instead.


Hell of an abuse of the constitution, on that note. I presume they will hold a proper constitutional convention to amend it, as is supposed to happen? Or will they just hijack it legislatively like they have in the past hundred years? See article V of your constitution if you're not familiar with the amendment process. the amendment itself could be ruled unconstitutional if it is not carried out properly.


Edited by Rambino - 07 June 2006 at 10:07pm
"Abortion is not "choice" in America. It is forced and the democrats are behind it, with the goal of eugenics at its foundation."

-FreeEnterprise, 21 April 2011.

Yup, he actually said that.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rambino Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 June 2006 at 10:10pm

Let's all please say "asshole" a little less.  And Brihard, I would take it as a personal favor if you changed your sig.

Thank you.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Savage93fvss Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 June 2006 at 10:32pm
Ha, he knows more about your 'merica than you do, and he's a Canuck.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ridesnowbrdr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 June 2006 at 10:33pm

Originally posted by Savage93fvss Savage93fvss wrote:

Ha, he knows more about your 'merica than you do, and he's a Canuck.

haha

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote choopie911 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 June 2006 at 10:37pm
Originally posted by Linus Linus wrote:

Choopie.

Here, read this please.

Originally posted by Article Article wrote:

Some psychologists attribute mental illness to organic/neurochemical causes that can be treated with psychiatric medication, psychotherapy, lifestyle adjustments and other supportive measures; however, many of the causes of mental illness are still unknown. The battle between "nature" and "nurture" goes on as it has for years. Neuroscience and genetics are still unable to fully explain the effects of genetic inheritance and developmental environment.




If it isnt natural, ie, more then 50% have it, then it's a disability, or a mutant gene.

Schizophrenia is a mental illness, and you wont argue that. But you will argue that homosexuality is neither a mental illness, nor a choice.

So what is it?


Some of them attribute that. SOME. Not all. And you dont "have" homesexuality. You are a homosexual, or you arent. And if less than 50% of a population do something, its a disease to you? So, people who are talented musicians have a disease? Those who are amazing painters have a disease? They have something "different" about them that is less than 50% of the population. I know it's a rediculous example, but it's using your reasoning...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote newport Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 June 2006 at 11:17pm
One of my very best friends goes to Stanford and happens to be **edited**. What an amazing mental illness.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ridesnowbrdr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 June 2006 at 11:45pm
being **edited** gets you into stanford?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clark Kent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 June 2006 at 12:10am
No, but it can get you into Berkeley.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote newport Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 June 2006 at 12:52am
Truth. It could easily get you into my school too. All I'm sayin' is, for a mental illness it certainly doesn't inhibit, y'know, intelligence. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dazed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 June 2006 at 1:40pm
Originally posted by Linus Linus wrote:

Dazed... didnt answer my question.

What harm does it do to you if they can't be married?


Yes, yes I did. Both times even. You really should read a post completely before replying to it.

I specifically said, IN BOTH POSTS IN QUESTION, that banning **edited** marriages didn't harm anyone, but neither did allowing them, and posed a question based on that response.

You, however, are ignoring what I'm saying, as well as the question I posed to you both times.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clark Kent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 June 2006 at 1:56pm

That's not quite accurate.

Issues of justice aside, banning **edited** marriage pretty clearly and directly harms **edited** people.

Allowing **edited** marriage directly harms nobody.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Linus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 June 2006 at 3:28pm
Originally posted by brihard brihard wrote:

Originally posted by United Nations Universal Decalration of Human Rights United Nations Universal Decalration of Human Rights wrote:


<H4>Article 16.</H4>

(1) Men and women of full age, without any limitation due to race, nationality or religion, have the right to marry and to found a family. They are entitled to equal rights as to marriage, during marriage and at its dissolution.



Ok, there is a right, but it doesnt pertain to homosexuals...

It says without limitation to race, nationality, or religion.

NO WHERE does it say sexual preference.

Since sexual preference isn't listed, it's up to the individual countries to define the rest of the specifications of marriage as long as it doesnt include race, nationality or religion.


THAT is why 4 countries allow marriage, while every single other one does NOT.

It's up to the discretion of each and every soverign nation.





And you guys keep forgetting where I said "for lack of a better word"

Now tell me.. what do you call it when the brain doesnt work in the normal way?

When the body doesnt work in a normal way?

Edited by Linus - 08 June 2006 at 3:29pm

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clark Kent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 June 2006 at 3:34pm

Originally posted by Linus Linus wrote:

Now tell me.. what do you call it when the brain doesnt work in the normal way?

When the body doesnt work in a normal way?

Unusual.

Like left-handed people.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Linus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 June 2006 at 3:37pm
Left handedness is a learned tendency.

If a kid starts to use his left hand, you can teach them to use their right.

If you want a kid to use their left hand, you can teach them from birth.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote choopie911 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 June 2006 at 3:38pm
Originally posted by Clark Kent Clark Kent wrote:

Originally posted by Linus Linus wrote:

Now tell me.. what do you call it when the brain doesnt work in the normal way? When the body doesnt work in a normal way?


Unusual.


Like left-handed people.




No, left handedness is a disease, a mental illness. They shouldnt be allowed to reproduce either.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clark Kent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 June 2006 at 3:40pm

So as a left-handed lesbian I must be totally screwed.

(metaphorically speaking only, of course)

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Linus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 June 2006 at 3:43pm
>_>


<_<



This arguement will go absolutly no where. All the opinions have been put out, and all the points and counter points have been put out.

**edited** marriage is one of those topics where it is almost an impossibility to change someones mind on it.


This thread needs to die from repetitiveness.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote choopie911 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 June 2006 at 3:49pm
Since when is left handedness a learned trait???
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