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i want to be a sniper

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote UV Halo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 June 2006 at 12:19am
Snake6, you brought the most logical and thorough reasoning to defend the concept of how there are no snipers in paintball.  Bravo!

  However, you are extensively basing your reasoning on how formal military establishments train, equip, and deploy Snipers.  Now, there is no doubt in my mind that we will not call one of our own personnel (DoD) a "sniper" unless that person has been formally trained, and equipped.

 You're leaving out half the story though.  You don't seem to be aware of how these same establishments refer to the opfor's "snipers".  Keep it in mind, that Vassilij Grigoryevich Zaitsev was never formally trained (or even equipped) as a sniper before the germans considered him a sniper.  He earned the title through his precision fire, tactics and, camouflage.  As a matter of fact, "snipers" were non-existant in the Russian army prior to him starting to train him.

 When it comes to threat analysis, military establishments will refer to opfor personnel who use extensive camouflage, concealment, and fire at exposed troops without readily revealing their location as "Snipers".  They refer to single shot, incoming fire (of an unknown origin) as "Sniper Fire".  Even though they know absolutely nothing about the opfor.

The reason they do this is because it's the most simple way to explain the threat, and what is happening.   What matters more, your opponent's accomplishments, or his training, and equipment? 

So, how do they (formal military establishments) differentiate between the militarily trained snipers, and other snipers?  If they happen to get that information about an opfor individual (or if speaking about the opfor in general), they will refer to them as being "Trained Snipers", and then they will discuss the training, how many of them there are, and their typical equipment, so that decision-makers have an idea of what to expect (all those feats your describe).  That's it.  Pure and simple.  More often than not, opfor snipers are equipped with assault rifles, and occasionally, a weapon with optics.

I also believe that you dropped the military's classification of Marksman.  A marksman is not trained extensively in camouflage and concealment, and further to the point, they do not use it extensively.  A marksman is a member of a deploying unit (squad, platoon, what have you), that fires and manuevers with said unit.    A marksman never deploys with a "spotter", and further, never alone.  Before he gets this designation, he usually displays an aptitude for precision fire.

Now, I believe there are paintball snipers and paintball marksmen.  The difference is primarily in how they manuever and fire.

A paintball sniper typically deploys in a one, or at most two-man group- because the less people you have with you, the more of a chance you'll have in slipping through a gap in the enemy line (or they will pass by you).  He moves more slowly (or not at all), as movement is the enemy of great camouflage.  He relies on his extensive camouflage (sorry, camouflage patterns don't cut it, you need to have some 3D camouflage, i.e. ghillie, as it is more effective than the standard print stuff in breaking up your outline.   This camouflage is necessary to make up for his reduced mobility, and never seeks a head-on fight.  An all out shooting is not a success, it's a failure, even if you eliminate your opponent. Why?  You've just blown your cover.  Other people in earshot will know 'something' is going on in that area. The benefit if this is done right?  The enemy slows as they cannot locate the shooter.  If they decide to move on, they may be stalked, and picked off one at a time.

A marksmen doesn't care if somebody locates him, he's supporting a team with precision fire- He actually aims before he shoots, while the rest of the team shoots, and then walks their fire.  Now, he's not a single shot kind of player but, he's not practicing "Accuracy through Volume" either.  If any of you are wondering what I mean by that, I mean, if you are firing more than three shots before your first shot hits, that's 'accuracy by volume'.  The benefit of this player:  A valuable member of a team, who seeks and takes shots of opportunity.

Now, here's the simplest contrast.  What happens if you have a team of all of either of those types.  Well, the marksmen team would move more quickly, and work together through the course of the fight.  A team full of snipers would all spread out, and try to take out individuals from concealed positions.

Personally, I don't know why people just can't help somebody be a "paintball sniper" with some good information.  For example, you could give him pointers on camouflage, or how to practice shooting, what type of equipment will allow for one repeatable one-shot eliminations (sorry your stock-stingray isn't going to cut it), and maybe even the concept of paint-matching.  All the while, keeping it realistic in telling him there is no long-range, high accuracy solution in paintball, and to point out to him, the marketing hype ("This 20" barrel is the most accurate, has the longest range, and will completely silence your marker").

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bruce A. Frank Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 June 2006 at 3:04am

Interestin that the term "sniper" is a relative modern term. Whereas the style of combatant isn't.

Snipe weren't shot at great distances relative to todays gunning and the use of the term evolved to encompass well hidden long range shooters.

A well hidden shooter (undetectable) taking targets near the limits of his weapon's range would certainly be able to collect his brace of snipe.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Snake6 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 June 2006 at 6:40am
UV Halo, I have a rebuttal for you, but I am off to school. So I will post it up this afternoon. I have to have a little time to think about this one. For once someone on the Pro-Sniper side has a half decent argument.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bruce A. Frank Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 June 2006 at 7:00am

UV,

Well stated!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cammo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 June 2006 at 9:28am
wow UV where were u when i was getting taught about how not to say anything remotly close to the word sniper jusk kidding but really nicely put
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jstu202 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 June 2006 at 5:19pm
That was very imppressive UV, you have Snake on his toes. Both were very thorough arguments though. I wish I had the brains to write stuff out like that.. My paintball logic is.. I shoot these little round things at other ppl who are shooting them back at me.. and they make me all colorful when they break.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote UV Halo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 June 2006 at 6:38pm
Thanks all for the compliments.

I thoroughly appreciate anyone in this thread who has not degenerated into logic such as "They Do/Don't Exist, Shut up"  Or "Oh no not again".  In my opinion, this is not a debate to be won or lost.  This is to present relevant information so that each of us can make up our own minds on the issue.  I would just like people to be able to ask simple questions that are related without narrow-minded individuals piping up to supress the question.

I'm 33 yrs old and I can remember a time when it was just understood that there were those who considered themselves 'paintball snipers', while some of them were, and some of them obviously were not.  But, it seems that within the last five years, or maybe around the same time as paintball became more spectator friendly (hyperball, etc), that people became very polarized on the issue.

There was one other point, I wanted to add to this, even in military definitions snipers do not just engage "high value targets", nor do they always practice shots at extreme range.  A sniper (referring to formal, militarily trained personnel) is often deployed defensively to harrass and disrupt the opfor.  Now, in this scenario, he infiltrates their territory, or allows them to move around himself.  When he fires, he takes out leadership if it presents itself to him but, his mission is to slow the advance of the enemy.  Therefore, he shoots at whatever target presents itself, and this fire slows the advancing forces, and demoralizes them.  Now the demoralizing bit can be subjective but, not many advancing forces will continue to move forward without dealing with the sniper first.  That is tangible, and that is the point.



Edited by UV Halo - 06 June 2006 at 6:42pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Snake6 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 June 2006 at 6:53pm
Originally posted by UV Halo UV Halo wrote:


Snake6, you brought the most logical and thorough reasoning to defend the concept of how there are no snipers in paintball.  Bravo!

  However, you are extensively basing your reasoning on how formal military establishments train, equip, and deploy Snipers.  Now, there is no doubt in my mind that we will not call one of our own personnel (DoD) a "sniper" unless that person has been formally trained, and equipped.

 You're leaving out half the story though.  You don't seem to be aware of how these same establishments refer to the opfor's "snipers".  Keep it in mind, that Vassilij Grigoryevich Zaitsev was never formally trained (or even equipped) as a sniper before the germans considered him a sniper.  He earned the title through his precision fire, tactics and, camouflage.  As a matter of fact, "snipers" were non-existant in the Russian army prior to him starting to train him.

I did purposefully leave those parts out. The reason being that the vast majority of this forum are from the United States, or Canada. It is easiest to relate to an example that is from your own history, so you know the majority of the background to it. Also if I were to go and pull Sniper stories from every major conflict in history I would have a 100 page post instead of a 4 page post.  I had to cut something out, and it happened to be other countries sniper programs. I would also like to point out that the US during WW1 & WW2 chose their snipers about the same way as the Soviets did. “Oh, you’re a good shot? Here take this here Sniper Rifle and go shoot people.” It has been proven that this is not a very effective method of training snipers,  which is why that method is not used anymore. There were thousands of Soviet Snipers in WW2, and only a small percentage of those were actually effective.

As for Zaitsev story, he WAS equipped with a Mosin Rifle with Optics. Also you have to take everything that is said about Zaitsev with a grain of salt, remember that he was the Soviets number one propaganda tool at Stalingrad. It has never been proven that the Germans sent their sniper school commander to kill Zaitsev, or that  Zaitsev actually killed him. The sources that make such statements are mainly Soviet Propaganda. There are no German sources to back up this claim.

 When it comes to threat analysis, military establishments will refer to opfor personnel who use extensive camouflage, concealment, and fire at exposed troops without readily revealing their location as "Snipers".  They refer to single shot, incoming fire (of an unknown origin) as "Sniper Fire".  Even though they know absolutely nothing about the opfor.

The reason they do this is because it's the most simple way to explain the threat, and what is happening.   What matters more, your opponent's accomplishments, or his training, and equipment? 

I will agree with you here. When I am playing paintball, and a single shot comes out of nowhere the standard call is “sniper”. It is not because there is actually a sniper, it is because it is an easy way to tell people to get down.

So, how do they (formal military establishments) differentiate between the militarily trained snipers, and other snipers?  If they happen to get that information about an opfor individual (or if speaking about the opfor in general), they will refer to them as being "Trained Snipers", and then they will discuss the training, how many of them there are, and their typical equipment, so that decision-makers have an idea of what to expect (all those feats your describe).  That's it.  Pure and simple.  More often than not, opfor snipers are equipped with assault rifles, and occasionally, a weapon with optics.

What type of military experience do you have? Just wondering, because I have never heard any military unit use the term “trained sniper” before in reference to opfor snipers. You are either a sniper or you are not, one or the other. To be considered a Sniper you still must be able to use basic sniper skills, otherwise you are one of two things, a dead sniper, or a worthless waste of manpower.

I also believe that you dropped the military's classification of Marksman.  A marksman is not trained extensively in camouflage and concealment, and further to the point, they do not use it extensively.  A marksman is a member of a deploying unit (squad, platoon, what have you), that fires and manuevers with said unit.    A marksman never deploys with a "spotter", and further, never alone.  Before he gets this designation, he usually displays an aptitude for precision fire.

I am sorry if I confused you, sometimes my rants can be that way. I never said that a marksman would use extra camouflage, or that he employed a spotter. What I was trying to say was that it is physically possible to be a marksman in paintball, and it is an effective tactic on the paintball field. Unlike being a “paintball sniper.”

Now, I believe there are paintball snipers and paintball marksmen.  The difference is primarily in how they manuever and fire.

A paintball sniper typically deploys in a one, or at most two-man group- because the less people you have with you, the more of a chance you'll have in slipping through a gap in the enemy line (or they will pass by you).  He moves more slowly (or not at all), as movement is the enemy of great camouflage.  He relies on his extensive camouflage (sorry, camouflage patterns don't cut it, you need to have some 3D camouflage, i.e. ghillie, as it is more effective than the standard print stuff in breaking up your outline.   This camouflage is necessary to make up for his reduced mobility, and never seeks a head-on fight.  An all out shooting is not a success, it's a failure, even if you eliminate your opponent. Why?  You've just blown your cover.  Other people in earshot will know 'something' is going on in that area. The benefit if this is done right?  The enemy slows as they cannot locate the shooter.  If they decide to move on, they may be stalked, and picked off one at a time.

You have completely missed my point. I live near Richmond Virginia and have visited USMC Base Quantico quite a few times. On two of my visits I got to watch a Sniper School class in action, and talk with a few of the instructors. One of the questions I asked each of the Sniper School Instructors., was “what are the basic abilities needed to be an effective sniper?” Each instructor replied with about the same thing. 1.  An effective Sniper uses camouflage to effectively hide his position from the enemy. 2. An effective Sniper is an Expert Rifleman. 3. An effective Sniper engages targets from beyond the effective range of return fire. 4. An effective sniper inserts to the operations area without being detected. 5. An effective Sniper has the ability to egress the operations area without being detected. I then asked the Instructors, “so what if the sniper is carrying a M16, instead of a sniper rifle? Would he still be used as a sniper if he had the same range as everyone else?” To a man, the Instructors said “no”.  Therefore I return to my garbage truck Analogy.

A marksmen doesn't care if somebody locates him, he's supporting a team with precision fire- He actually aims before he shoots, while the rest of the team shoots, and then walks their fire.  Now, he's not a single shot kind of player but, he's not practicing "Accuracy through Volume" either.  If any of you are wondering what I mean by that, I mean, if you are firing more than three shots before your first shot hits, that's 'accuracy by volume'.  The benefit of this player:  A valuable member of a team, who seeks and takes shots of opportunity.

No argument here.

Now, here's the simplest contrast.  What happens if you have a team of all of either of those types.  Well, the marksmen team would move more quickly, and work together through the course of the fight.  A team full of snipers would all spread out, and try to take out individuals from concealed positions.

If your team consists of a single type of personnel, it will not be a very effective team. You need to have diversity in the abilities of your team members in order to succeed.  

Personally, I don't know why people just can't help somebody be a "paintball sniper" with some good information.  For example, you could give him pointers on camouflage, or how to practice shooting, what type of equipment will allow for one repeatable one-shot eliminations (sorry your stock-stingray isn't going to cut it), and maybe even the concept of paint-matching.  All the while, keeping it realistic in telling him there is no long-range, high accuracy solution in paintball, and to point out to him, the marketing hype ("This 20" barrel is the most accurate, has the longest range, and will completely silence your marker").

You can’t help people be something that it is physically impossible to be.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ridesnowbrdr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 June 2006 at 7:44pm

Originally posted by Gpacker4686 Gpacker4686 wrote:

hey i was a sniper yesterday, I was in a bunker (so i was concealed). then from a hole i was looking at i saw where my target was at. I then waited until his head came in sight. I popped up took one shot (it got him in the head) then i went back down.

well ok maybe i wasn't a sniper b/c of distance and people knew where i was but i did get the one shot one kill. lol

*zips up flame suit*

thats not being a sniper, thats being a camper

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote UV Halo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 June 2006 at 8:36pm
Originally posted by Snake6 Snake6 wrote:

Originally posted by UV Halo UV Halo wrote:


Snake6, you brought the most logical and thorough reasoning to defend the concept of how there are no snipers in paintball.  Bravo!

  However, you are extensively basing your reasoning on how formal military establishments train, equip, and deploy Snipers.  Now, there is no doubt in my mind that we will not call one of our own personnel (DoD) a "sniper" unless that person has been formally trained, and equipped.

 You're leaving out half the story though.  You don't seem to be aware of how these same establishments refer to the opfor's "snipers".  Keep it in mind, that Vassilij Grigoryevich Zaitsev was never formally trained (or even equipped) as a sniper before the germans considered him a sniper.  He earned the title through his precision fire, tactics and, camouflage.  As a matter of fact, "snipers" were non-existant in the Russian army prior to him starting to train him.

I did purposefully leave those parts out. The reason being that the vast majority of this forum are from the United States, or Canada. It is easiest to relate to an example that is from your own history, so you know the majority of the background to it. Also if I were to go and pull Sniper stories from every major conflict in history I would have a 100 page post instead of a 4 page post.  I had to cut something out, and it happened to be other countries sniper programs. I would also like to point out that the US during WW1 & WW2 chose their snipers about the same way as the Soviets did. “Oh, you’re a good shot? Here take this here Sniper Rifle and go shoot people.” It has been proven that this is not a very effective method of training snipers,  which is why that method is not used anymore. There were thousands of Soviet Snipers in WW2, and only a small percentage of those were actually effective.

As for Zaitsev story, he WAS equipped with a Mosin Rifle with Optics. Also you have to take everything that is said about Zaitsev with a grain of salt, remember that he was the Soviets number one propaganda tool at Stalingrad. It has never been proven that the Germans sent their sniper school commander to kill Zaitsev, or that  Zaitsev actually killed him. The sources that make such statements are mainly Soviet Propaganda. There are no German sources to back up this claim.

I agree about the diversity in historical accounts on that individual.  However, the point is, that it wasn't his training, nor even his equipment, it was his actions that defined him, and it wasn't all heroic shots on the enemy's leadership.

 When it comes to threat analysis, military establishments will refer to opfor personnel who use extensive camouflage, concealment, and fire at exposed troops without readily revealing their location as "Snipers".  They refer to single shot, incoming fire (of an unknown origin) as "Sniper Fire".  Even though they know absolutely nothing about the opfor.

The reason they do this is because it's the most simple way to explain the threat, and what is happening.   What matters more, your opponent's accomplishments, or his training, and equipment? 

I will agree with you here. When I am playing paintball, and a single shot comes out of nowhere the standard call is “sniper”. It is not because there is actually a sniper, it is because it is an easy way to tell people to get down.

Now, think about what would happen if the rest of your team got into a debate with you at that point about how "There are no snipers in paintball"    The point is to convey an idea.  When somebody says that they want to be a sniper, I would say that nobody close to voting age, with a serious interest in paintball is going to expect that they will obtain an unheard of accuracy at range, and that they will be able to move in terms of inches until they get within their ridiculous range of and pick off the opfor.  A ten year old, maybe.

So, how do they (formal military establishments) differentiate between the militarily trained snipers, and other snipers?  If they happen to get that information about an opfor individual (or if speaking about the opfor in general), they will refer to them as being "Trained Snipers", and then they will discuss the training, how many of them there are, and their typical equipment, so that decision-makers have an idea of what to expect (all those feats your describe).  That's it.  Pure and simple.  More often than not, opfor snipers are equipped with assault rifles, and occasionally, a weapon with optics.

What type of military experience do you have? Just wondering, because I have never heard any military unit use the term “trained sniper” before in reference to opfor snipers. You are either a sniper or you are not, one or the other. To be considered a Sniper you still must be able to use basic sniper skills, otherwise you are one of two things, a dead sniper, or a worthless waste of manpower.

I'm not one to brag but to simply answer your question, I spent 12 years in the navy with various assignments as a Stinger Missile Operator, an Intelligence Analyst (in the Pacific, Middle Eastern, and European theater), and an instructor.  I spent the bulk of my time evaluating the capabilities of our adversaries.  I know you're getting ready to ship off so, feel free to ask me any questions you might have about my experiences over PM.

Edit: The reference to trained snipers is is part of an intelligence assessment vice, reporting of enemy encounters.

I also believe that you dropped the military's classification of Marksman.  A marksman is not trained extensively in camouflage and concealment, and further to the point, they do not use it extensively.  A marksman is a member of a deploying unit (squad, platoon, what have you), that fires and manuevers with said unit.    A marksman never deploys with a "spotter", and further, never alone.  Before he gets this designation, he usually displays an aptitude for precision fire.

I am sorry if I confused you, sometimes my rants can be that way. I never said that a marksman would use extra camouflage, or that he employed a spotter. What I was trying to say was that it is physically possible to be a marksman in paintball, and it is an effective tactic on the paintball field. Unlike being a “paintball sniper.”

Now, I believe it is physically possible, and effective to be a paintball sniper, with some caveats.  Defensively (in other words, firing at and eliminating troops without revealing your position, can and will slow the opfor down.  This buys the rest of your team time to manuever,  set an ambush, etc.  Offensively, It's not commonly possible in your average 15-20min game.  To outflank your opponents, since you're not trying to engage them head on, you gotta move fast.  During this period your camouflage is much less effective and the opfor has a good chance of realizing your there.

Now, I believe there are paintball snipers and paintball marksmen.  The difference is primarily in how they manuever and fire.

A paintball sniper typically deploys in a one, or at most two-man group- because the less people you have with you, the more of a chance you'll have in slipping through a gap in the enemy line (or they will pass by you).  He moves more slowly (or not at all), as movement is the enemy of great camouflage.  He relies on his extensive camouflage (sorry, camouflage patterns don't cut it, you need to have some 3D camouflage, i.e. ghillie, as it is more effective than the standard print stuff in breaking up your outline.   This camouflage is necessary to make up for his reduced mobility, and never seeks a head-on fight.  An all out shooting is not a success, it's a failure, even if you eliminate your opponent. Why?  You've just blown your cover.  Other people in earshot will know 'something' is going on in that area. The benefit if this is done right?  The enemy slows as they cannot locate the shooter.  If they decide to move on, they may be stalked, and picked off one at a time.

You have completely missed my point. I live near Richmond Virginia and have visited USMC Base Quantico quite a few times. On two of my visits I got to watch a Sniper School class in action, and talk with a few of the instructors. One of the questions I asked each of the Sniper School Instructors., was “what are the basic abilities needed to be an effective sniper?” Each instructor replied with about the same thing. 1.  An effective Sniper uses camouflage to effectively hide his position from the enemy. 2. An effective Sniper is an Expert Rifleman. 3. An effective Sniper engages targets from beyond the effective range of return fire. 4. An effective sniper inserts to the operations area without being detected. 5. An effective Sniper has the ability to egress the operations area without being detected. I then asked the Instructors, “so what if the sniper is carrying a M16, instead of a sniper rifle? Would he still be used as a sniper if he had the same range as everyone else?” To a man, the Instructors said “no”.  Therefore I return to my garbage truck Analogy.

Again, this was an opinion of what we would call our own forces, or even what makes a "good sniper".  Take a look at what is happening in Afghanistan, and Iraq.  It's not just the press that is calling these insurgents that wound or kill our troops with single shots.  That's how the military is reporting them.  Why?  Because more often than not, even if we kill the indivdual, we will not have any clue about how he was trained.  We consider him on the merits of his actions. FYI, I'm not glorifying these folks.  I personally feel great satisfaction in knowing that when they mess up, the get heavy weaponry in return. 

A marksmen doesn't care if somebody locates him, he's supporting a team with precision fire- He actually aims before he shoots, while the rest of the team shoots, and then walks their fire.  Now, he's not a single shot kind of player but, he's not practicing "Accuracy through Volume" either.  If any of you are wondering what I mean by that, I mean, if you are firing more than three shots before your first shot hits, that's 'accuracy by volume'.  The benefit of this player:  A valuable member of a team, who seeks and takes shots of opportunity.

No argument here.

Now, here's the simplest contrast.  What happens if you have a team of all of either of those types.  Well, the marksmen team would move more quickly, and work together through the course of the fight.  A team full of snipers would all spread out, and try to take out individuals from concealed positions.

If your team consists of a single type of personnel, it will not be a very effective team. You need to have diversity in the abilities of your team members in order to succeed.  

I thoroughly agree however, I'm sure you can see the differences in how they would 'fight'.

Personally, I don't know why people just can't help somebody be a "paintball sniper" with some good information.  For example, you could give him pointers on camouflage, or how to practice shooting, what type of equipment will allow for one repeatable one-shot eliminations (sorry your stock-stingray isn't going to cut it), and maybe even the concept of paint-matching.  All the while, keeping it realistic in telling him there is no long-range, high accuracy solution in paintball, and to point out to him, the marketing hype ("This 20" barrel is the most accurate, has the longest range, and will completely silence your marker").

You can’t help people be something that it is physically impossible to be.

An actual sniper, no, it's not physically possible.  But, yet we use other military terms with no regard to how the military classifies them.  Here's a couple equipment examples: "Paintball Grenades".  They don't explode, and they don't even shoot their paint anywhere close to the kill radius of an actual grenade (much less evenly) but is anyone running around saying "There is no such thing as paintball grenades, their not physically possible or effective".  Or, how about "paintball gun"?  "Paintball Tank"?  "Paintball Mine"?  Okay so maybe some of those hardcore folks that are trying to distance themselves from anything war, or militarily-related to paintball.  Or, how about the term "Paintball Medic".  Yet again, nobody is running around saying, "There are no such things as 'paintball medics', these guys aren't trained, equipped or even perform as a 'medic'".  See the hipocracy?  (I'm not sayng you're hipocritical, it's a general mindset of many paintball players). 




Edited by UV Halo - 06 June 2006 at 10:09pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cammo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 June 2006 at 8:38pm

Wow both snake an UV have great points IM STARTING TO LOVE THIS THREAD, but i think part of what UV is trying to say is that of course not all of the tavtics used by real "snipers" will work in paintball (that would be imposible) but some of the tactics can be used.

1.  An effective Sniper uses camouflage to effectively hide his position from the enemy.---this can be done in wodsball

2. An effective Sniper is an Expert Rifleman.--- this can be done to a point (if u are good with your gin, you can hold it steady, and can read distance and range well)

3. An effective Sniper engages targets from beyond the effective range of return fire. --- that cant be done in paintball we have established this.

4. An effective Sniper engages targets from beyond the effective range of return fire.--- stealth can easily be used in paintball.

5. An effective Sniper has the ability to egress the operations area without being detected.--- again stealth tactics

and the fact that the sniper instructor said "if the sniper is carrying an M-16 he is no longer a sniper" i think he may of been talking about the acuracy of an M-16 not the fact that it is a fast shooting gun that would translate to something like an egrip on a tippy of an ion.

so 4 out of the five sniper tactics could be put into play by paintballers.

---please tell me if i missed something on this debate and went way off somewhere in this post--- 

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote UV Halo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 June 2006 at 10:54pm
Cammo,

Again, you're comparing paintball players to military standards. The problem with this is that paintball is played on completely different scales, in time, distance, equipment, training, tactics, etc.  Consider this: How often in a 15-20 minute game does a paintball sniper worry about egressing undetected?  In a scenario/big game yes, it can, and does happen.  But, who here spends most of their game time in scenarios, or big games?
  Compare it on the basis of tactical outcomes.  Is a one-shot elimination a big deal?  In itself, not really.  Now if that one-shot elimination causes that group to slow in it's advancement because they can't find you, then yes, that is a successful paintball sniper engagement.  The bonus would be if you should happen to demoralize them to the point to where they decide to go some other way.  In scenario play, there are even more opportunities.

In my opinion, it's not just the stealthiness and being a good shot that makes a 'paintball' sniper.  Hell, I've used a ghillie (not a burlap jute but rather, netting type), and crept around all sneaky.  Hehe, last time I played, in one game, I managed to not fire a single shot because I was being too sneaky, as I flanked a group that was continuously flanking another group.  At one time or another, I've done all those things that I believe a paintball sniper should do.  But, I'd never call myself a paintball sniper because honestly, I'm not doing all those things, most of the time.

Kinda like you're not an airsmith just because you did some airsmith-level work to your gun once.  If you did it most of the time, then yeah, you could call yourself a self-trained airsmith.

I'm no paintball sniper, I'm a paintball player, that sometimes uses paintball sniper tactics, paintball marksman tactics, and sometimes I even act as a team captain (as I come up with a strategy for, and guide the walkon team I'm with).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Snake6 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 June 2006 at 11:31pm
UV Halo,

After reading through your posts and mulling over it myself a little bit, honestly I cannot see a substancial difference between what you are calling "paintball sniper" tactics and an unsupported close ambush as tought in any Infantry School to a basic Rifleman. How is it that OS so eliquently puts it? "1 ea Standard Infantry".

You can't just change accepted definitions around to fit your needs. Whenever someone argues for a "paintball sniper" that is pretty much what you are doing. Remember that this is a Military Close Combat Simulation Game, therefore most military tactics and definitions transfer well. But just because you want to be called a sniper you cannot change a definition. That is like changing the definition of apples to include oranges. Or even better my garbage truck analogy:

You work for a living. Your job is to go to people’s houses and businesses, to pick up their trash and take it to the dump. You drive a Garbage Truck. What would you be called, a Garbage Man, or a Professional Truck Driver?

You would be called a Garbage Man, would you not? As much as you would prefer to be called a Professional Truck Driver, everyone would call you a Garbage Man because it fits what you are doing better than the title Professional Truck Driver does.



But I don't why I am ranting on... We are not going to change each others minds. So lets just Agree to Disagree.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldsoldier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 June 2006 at 3:18pm
Ok, here we go. Historical reference, before the modern term sniper was coined, there was the role of "skirmisher", where a soldier armed with a standard rifle went out in front of the main battle line and engaged the enemy, disrupting his formations, and giving early warning to the main battle line. He was obligated to use trees and rocks as cover to avoid the mass return fires of formation infantry.

Soviet Style of warfare in WW2, was pure attrition, mass infantry attacks illregardless of casualties. "Snipers" were given scoped rifles if they showed any talent, being farmboys, hunters and such, as compared to the new soviet man of the cities, and was sent out for the same purpose as above, harrase and interdict German troops and formations. Disrupt planning and to hurt morale. Even incoming inaccurate rifle fire will create the same effect if retaliation is not easy.

Now for today, we have two choices as combat leaders. When we take a round from an unknown direction and or range, in order to get the proper battle drill reaction we can yell the command "Unknown rifleman, left, long/mid/short range, no visual" or "Sniper Left", which in a combat setting will get the faster and more understandable response. Not thast we are being engaged by a true sniper but the idea is there and battle drill is based on a tactical application not a dictionary definition or perception of a skill.

As for movement, a long time ago and far, far away we moved in two/three/four man teams dressed in camoflauged ERDL uniforms, using proper camoflauge and movement techniques for the terrain, and we were not snipers we were LRRP Teams, doing active recon, harrasement and interdiction fires, select point target fires, and generally keeping Nathaniel and Charlie wondering. We moved slow/fast whatever mission terrain requirement demanded, and allways began engagements at our advantage.

I later was issued a XM21 (scoped M14) and did the same as above, I only went to the "school" long after my return to the world.

In the realm of short ranged ground combat, a static unsupported rifleman, no matter how good, is not a combat multiplier, but a combat casuality. I learned this again a long time ago, far, far away, at paintball ranges, with real M16's and Ak's.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RED_B@ng Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 June 2006 at 5:44pm
Fine let me rephrase i want to be stealthy with a gun that soot a far distance but the inly thing i dont like about the flatline is that u can drop balls on people
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote UV Halo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 June 2006 at 7:38pm
Snake6, I've never for one second, in over 15yrs of playing this game, with nearly all of it spent in the woods, have I ever thought this game is a "Military Close Combat Simulation Game".  Sure it has some similarities to such an environment but, it has just as many differences, in time, space, equipment, tactics, etc.  Even Scenarios are not even remotely close.

As far as our differences go, I had that understanding from the beginning, I'm glad to share this exchange of ideas in a civil manner.  I fully agree to disagree   I'm dead serious here, this has been very good for me and many others on this board.

oldsoldier, good points.  I almost forgot about LRRPs.  But, if you receive a single, incoming, accurate shot, from an unknown origin (meaning you have only the direction it came from, at best), in the mission debrief, it gets reported to the G2, or J2 as "Sniper" activity.  Every time.  Even if you never locate the individual that fired the shots.

Red_B@ng, What do you mean about a flatline dropping balls on people?

Stealthy with a range further than your average paintball gun?  Two issues.  Stealthy involves camouflage, and being able to move quietly, and knowing when not to move.  Being able to shoot without revealing your location is a separate issue.
 
Long Range.  Do you mean longer than a standard paintball gun's range?   Only flatline and apex help you there, and neither of those are quiet by anyone's standard, with the flatline being the worst.  If you want to be more accurate at the far end of normal paintball range, get a good paintball-barrel match, use good paint, and get your chrono speed as consistant as possible (via polished internals on a tippmann, an expansion chamber and/or a regulator).  Then, Practice Practice Practice!


Edited by UV Halo - 07 June 2006 at 7:46pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MeanMan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 June 2006 at 8:06pm
i think "sniper" threads have the longest posts

hybrid-sniper~"To be honest, if I see a player still using an Impulse I'm going to question their motives."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote UV Halo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 June 2006 at 8:52pm
Yeah, they either rack up ton of insults and childish arguments ("there are" "there are not", or stuff that contributes nothing to the debate. 

Or,  they are thoughtful discussions with lots of relevant information on both sides of the debate.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cammo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 June 2006 at 9:09pm
ya but there ususally a childish argument   i like smillies
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jstu202 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 June 2006 at 11:02pm
A toast to UV and Snake, your arguments were very impressive and respectable.. just wanted to throw that out there again. This thread really gets you thinking.
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