Tippmann Pneumatics Inc. Homepage
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Topic ClosedSnipers are real

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1234 10>
Author
Rambino View Drop Down
Moderator Group
Moderator Group
Avatar
I am even less fun in person

Joined: 15 August 2002
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 16593
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 May 2006 at 9:40pm
I enjoy a good sniper debate as much as the next guy (i.e. not at all), but please keep this civil.  Otherwise this thread will have to be sent to the trash heap of internet forum threads.
Back to Top
DeTrevni View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar
b-YOU-ick. Was that so hard?

Joined: 19 September 2005
Location: Houston, Texas
Status: Offline
Points: 11763
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 May 2006 at 9:41pm
wow. im kinda disappointed you just didnt lock it here...
Evil Elvis: "Detrevni is definally like a hillbilly hippy from hell"

Back to Top
Snipa69 View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar
Soulectomy complete in 3...2...1...

Joined: 26 June 2002
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 5423
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 May 2006 at 9:42pm
Look at me. Look at my username. Now understand that there are no snipers in paintball.

You also have not been playing for 12 years, so don't try that card on us. If you stick arround here long enough, you'll actually learn something. Don't bother using the dictionary version of the word 'sniper' in this, it just wont work.
Back to Top
High Voltage View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar
Fire in the disco

Joined: 12 March 2003
Location: 127.0.0.1
Status: Offline
Points: 14179
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 May 2006 at 9:43pm
no way, locking ends the fun.
Back to Top
DeTrevni View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar
b-YOU-ick. Was that so hard?

Joined: 19 September 2005
Location: Houston, Texas
Status: Offline
Points: 11763
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 May 2006 at 9:43pm
touche!
Evil Elvis: "Detrevni is definally like a hillbilly hippy from hell"

Back to Top
Dye Playa View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar
Guested- Reposted Inapropiate Link.

Joined: 21 June 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 3209
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 May 2006 at 9:44pm
yea, its inevitable it will escalate into an 8 page topic, dozens of language warnings and so forth. it happens every time.
Back to Top
procarbinefreak View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar
Budget Medical Procedures Available

Joined: 12 June 2002
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 12751
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 May 2006 at 9:50pm
BUT SPEC-OPS SAYS SOOOOO... IT MUST BE TRUE!!!

Back to Top
*Stealth* View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member

Watermarked

Joined: 31 October 2002
Location: Ethiopia
Status: Offline
Points: 10715
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 May 2006 at 9:53pm
OMGZORZ SPEC-OPS!
Back to Top
High Voltage View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar
Fire in the disco

Joined: 12 March 2003
Location: 127.0.0.1
Status: Offline
Points: 14179
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 May 2006 at 9:55pm
crap, PCF won that one...
Back to Top
Ghost-Rider View Drop Down
Member
Member
Avatar
Strike 2, Filter Dodge 8/12

Joined: 15 May 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 956
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 May 2006 at 9:55pm
High voltage thats a M-14 not a sniper rifle my dad has 1 and also theres no such thing as snipers in paintball ok you can see the friggn ball go flying its like snipers using tracers just stupid so heres the fun !

Back to Top
Dye Playa View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar
Guested- Reposted Inapropiate Link.

Joined: 21 June 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 3209
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 May 2006 at 9:55pm

Originally posted by High Voltage High Voltage wrote:

no way, locking ends the fun.

Your right. Flame on!

Back to Top
*Stealth* View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member

Watermarked

Joined: 31 October 2002
Location: Ethiopia
Status: Offline
Points: 10715
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 May 2006 at 9:59pm


-



=






Back to Top
GI JOES SON View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar
Got me flowers for my birthday

Joined: 10 July 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 4944
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 May 2006 at 10:02pm

Originally posted by Ghost-Rider Ghost-Rider wrote:

High voltage thats a M-14 not a sniper rifle my dad has 1 and also theres no such thing as snipers in paintball ok you can see the friggn ball go flying its like snipers using tracers just stupid so heres the fun !

they converted the m-14 into the m-21 sniper rifle a little after vietnam, they got the m16 as a standard weapon, so they decided that the 7.62 round was sufficient enough for a snipers round. I must say, they did good on that...few minor changes, the obvious being the scope, i dont think theres really anything else even, but yea its technically an m21 sniper rifle once you put a scope on it.

Back to Top
Ghost-Rider View Drop Down
Member
Member
Avatar
Strike 2, Filter Dodge 8/12

Joined: 15 May 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 956
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 May 2006 at 10:03pm
Yea but havent you been reading their startin to use the M-14's agin or M1A1 if you wanna get more exact name i guess
But yea their still usin the M-16 for primary ... i love my AR-15 thing pwns all ....... plus the M-14 is a 308 so a nice lil bit bigger


Edited by Ghost-Rider - 26 May 2006 at 10:06pm
Back to Top
High Voltage View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar
Fire in the disco

Joined: 12 March 2003
Location: 127.0.0.1
Status: Offline
Points: 14179
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 May 2006 at 10:04pm
awesome, just awesome. hey ghost rider, i do believe i win.
Back to Top
Ghost-Rider View Drop Down
Member
Member
Avatar
Strike 2, Filter Dodge 8/12

Joined: 15 May 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 956
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 May 2006 at 10:43pm
Nope...ergg stupid pics wont work... ill have to prove you wrong some other time my nets being stupid

Back to Top
kuhndog599 View Drop Down
Gold Member
Gold Member
Avatar
Strike 1, Language 5/4

Joined: 13 December 2004
Location: Neutral Zone
Status: Offline
Points: 1015
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 May 2006 at 10:44pm
Originally posted by Sammy Sammy wrote:

Dear,

[X]Clueless Newbie
[ ] Loser
[ ] AOLer
[ ] 12 year old
[ ] Troll
[ ] Pervert
[ ] Geek
[ ] Spammer
[ ] Wannabe
[ ] Haxxor
[ ] l337 d00d
[ ] Flamer
[ ] Whiner
[ ] Other: Retard, failure, moron, impotent fool.
[
X] noobie

You Are Being Flamed Because

[ ] You have created another ingenious idea
[ ] you have managed to push the limits of what the term  moron stands for by posting something you would be flamed for
[ ] You continued a long, stupid thread
[ ] You committed crimes against pork biproducts
[ ] You posted a 'YOU ALL SUCK' message
[X] The search button is you freind
[ ] You don't know which forum to post in
[ ] You just plain suck
[ ] You posted false information
[ ] You posted something totally uninteresting
[ ] You double posted double posted
[ ] YOU POSTED A MESSAGE ALL WRITTEN IN CAPS
[ ] You posted racist mumbo jumbo
[ ] I don't like your tone of voice
[ ] You are not civilized enough to post in these forums
[ ] Yuo mispeled evry sengle wurd.
[ ] you have discriminated a product that you would be obviously  flamed for
[ ] repeated beating of a dead horse
[
X] You used the "S" word

In Punishment, You Must:


[X]Apologize to everybody on this forum
[ ] Jump into a bathtub while holding your monitor
[ ] Actually post something relevant
[X] Read the FAQ
[ ] Become big al'es love mama
[ ] be slapped repeatedly
[ ] neuter your self to further prevent any form of a defective gene pool
[ ] Go stand in the middle of a Highway
[ ] Recite the Greek alphabet backwards
[ ] Take a bath in bleach
[ ] Give M. Jackson a reason to be guilty
[ ] All of the above

In Closing, I'd Like to Say:

[
X] since you are new we will let it slid this time
[ ] Get a life
[ ] Never post again
[ ] I pity your dog
[ ] Your IQ must be 7
[ ] Just leave with the last of your dignity
[ ] Your mom should be ashamed
[ ] Dont waste our time
[ ] Go jump into some industrial equipment
[ ] All of the above

Yours Truly,

Taylor


If you have been playing for 12 years, you probably would not type like you do.

danget you beat me to it but i'll do one anyway. Dear,


[X]Clueless Newbie
[ ] Loser
[ ] AOLer
[X] 12 year old
[ ] Troll
[ ] Pervert
[ ] Geek
[ ] Spammer
[ ] Wannabe
[ ] Haxxor
[ ] l337 d00d
[ ] Flamer
[ ] Whiner
[ ] Other: Retard, failure, moron, impotent fool.
[ ] noobie

You Are Being Flamed Because

[ ] You have created another ingenious idea
[X] you have managed to push the limits of what the term  moron stands for by posting something you would be flamed for
[X] You continued a long, stupid thread
[ ] You committed crimes against pork biproducts
[ ] You posted a 'YOU ALL SUCK' message
[ ] The search button is you freind
[ ] You don't know which forum to post in
[ ] You just plain suck
[ ] You posted false information
[ ] You posted something totally uninteresting
[ ] You double posted double posted
[ ] YOU POSTED A MESSAGE ALL WRITTEN IN CAPS
[ ] You posted racist mumbo jumbo
[ ] I don't like your tone of voice
[ ] You are not civilized enough to post in these forums
[ ] Yuo mispeled evry sengle wurd.
[ ] you have discriminated a product that you would be obviously  flamed for
[ ] repeated beating of a dead horse

In Punishment, You Must:


[ ]Apologize to everybody on this forum
[ ] Jump into a bathtub while holding your monitor
[ ] Actually post something relevant
[ ] Read the FAQ
[ ] Become big al'es love mama
[X] be slapped repeadily
[ ] neuter your self to further prevent any form of a defective gene pool
[ ] Go stand in the middle of a Highway
[ ] Recite the Greek alphabet backwards
[ ] Take a bath in bleach
[ ] Give M. Jackson a reason to be guilty
[ ] All of the above

In Closing, I'd Like to Say:

[X] since you are new we will let it slid this time
[ ] Get a life
[ ] Never post again
[X] I pity your dog
[ ] Your IQ must be 7
[ ] Just leave with the last of your dignity
[ ] Your mom should be ashamed
[ ]Dont waste our time
[ ] Go jump into some industrial equipment
[ ] All of the above

model 98 - homemade handguard
solid stock - opsgear mag
polished internals
homemade sling - paintjob
operator barrel
progressive barrel
opsgear mag - stock
Back to Top
SSOK View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar
The Savior of Christmas

Joined: 01 September 2005
Location: PRNJ
Status: Offline
Points: 5500
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 May 2006 at 10:44pm

Yes, you may get a good, almost "Sniper" shots in paintball. I know I hide in thick bushes alot (Which I cannot shoot out of), and NOBODY sees me. Mind you, I usually blow my cover too soon and usually get out but I ALWAYS scare the crap out of the other player. Its un rewarding but lots of fun

 

Still not sniper. Ive never gotten flamed because ive never defended that word really.

Back to Top
usafpilot07 View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar
FreeEnterprise's #1 Fan & Potty Mouth

Joined: 31 August 2004
Location: Tokelau
Status: Offline
Points: 4449
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 May 2006 at 10:51pm
Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo
Back to Top
Snake6 View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar
Outranked by guitarguy?

Joined: 11 September 2003
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 11227
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 May 2006 at 10:54pm
Well, Well, Well.

Its that time again...

The History of Military Sniping, and how it relates to the Game of Paintball.

Ok. So I got bored, and I am sick and tried of this stupid sniper debate. I got a Barnes and Noble gift card for Christmas, and didn’t know what else to get so I picked up several books on Military Snipers. Here are my findings.

< -- Note: Due to a problem with my code, you have to Highlight my rifle comparison tables to see them. It’s a bother, but if someone knows how to fix it, PM me. -- >

First lets go over the basics of what a sniper is, and what a sniper is not.

A sniper…is considered a specialist, whose prime function is to kill selected high value targets at long range using superior skill and armament. A sharpshooter, by contrast, is a rifleman (proficient or otherwise) who acts in an opportunist manner, taking shots at the enemy when the chance arises”

From SNIPER by Adrian Gilbert

Keep this in your mind as you read the rest of the article.

The American Revolution (1775-83)

Sniping first came onto the battlefield during the American Revolution. Standard infantry of this period were equipped with “Brown Bess” smoothbore muskets. The Continental Congress approves 10 independent companies, armed with long rifles. The men of these companies were the first snipers.

Comparison between the “Brown Bess” musket, and the Long Rifle.

A soldiers musket, if not exceedingly ill bored (as many are), will strike the figure of a man at 80 yards: it may even at 100, but a soldier must be very unfortunate indeed who shall be wounded by a common musket at 150 yards, provided that the antagonist aims at him; as to firing at a man at 200 yards, with a common, musket, you might as well fire at the moon.” –British Major Hanger, on the “Brown Bess” musket

 In contrast, the American Long Rifle (as carried by the Irregular companies), was effective in ranges up to 300 yards, and headshots could be achieved at 200. At these ranges American Snipers picked-off high ranking British Officers. During the battle of Saratoga an American sniper brought down British General Simon Frasier from a range of 300 yards. Despite its advantages the long rifle had several disadvantages. Its slow reload time(2 shots a minute), and lack of bayonet fixture made it useful only as a skirmisher weapon, not for use as a standard infantry weapon.


Brown Bess

Long Rifle

Range:

80 Yards

300 Yards

Muzzle Velocity:

1100-1300 fps

~1600fps

Ammunition:

.75 caliber ball

.40-.70 caliber ball



As you can see from the table, the Rifle outranged the common muskets of the time by over 200 yards. Also the muzzle velocity of the Rifle was much higher than that of the Brown Bess.

The War of Northern Aggression (American Civil War) (1861-65)

During the Civil War, the standard infantry rifles were the Enfield(for the south), and the Springfield(for the north). These were muzzleloading rifles with effective ranges up to 500 yards. The confederacy managed to acquire Witworth and Kerr rifles from Europe for their snipers. These rifles had an effective range of well over 1200 yards, and hits were reported at over 1500 yards.

Confederate Snipers were selected in a manner which has been used to select snipers in most present wars. The best men from each infantry regiment entered into shooting competitions. They were required to hit man-sized boards at 500 yards. The best shooters were given the prized Kerr and Witworth rifles. They then went through extensive training in the use of these rifles.

The snipers were warned never to get within 400 yards of the enemy, but to use their superior range, to keep the enemy at a safe distance.


Springfield/Enfield

Kerr & Withworth

Range:

1200+ yards

500 Yards

Muzzle Velocity:



Ammunition:

.451 Hexagonal Slug


 

World War I (1914-18)

US Snipers during World War I used modified, and accurized versions of  the standard service rifle the Springfield 1903, equipped with 2 to 4 power scopes. Snipers during the war mostly sniped from behind the MLR, the main trench line. These snipers were Infantrymen taken off the line, and equipped with scoped rifles. With their rifles they could pick the enemy off 3 or 4 trench lines back from the MLR. The marksmanship standard for infantry of the time was to be able to hit a standing man from around 100 yards. The snipers were trained to hit targets from over 500 yards.

World War II (1938-45)

World War II snipers were selected in different manners during the war. I will concentrate on the Marine Corps Snipers trained at Green’s Farm because the documentation of this school and its snipers is the best. There, snipers were instructed in 5 week courses in marksmanship, camouflage, and field craft. They were trained to approach a target using stealth and to eliminate the target from long distances. These snipers were required to hit a moving target at 500 yards, and to hit a stationary target at 1000. They were equipped much the same way as snipers in WWI  were. These snipers used accurized  versions of the M1903 Springfield service rifle, the A1 or A3 variants equipped with 2 or 4 power scopes. Marine Infantry qualified at 500 yards.


M1 Garand

M1903A3

Range

500 yards

1000yards

Ammunition

.30-06

.30-06

Korea (1950-53)

Korea, in the latter part of the war turned into a bogged down war of attrition, looking somewhat like the trench warfare of WWI. This, alongside Korea’s terrain of rolling hills combined to make it prime sniper territory. Sniping tactics in Korea did not change much from the tactics of WWII so I will not elaborate on them. The rifles also remained the same. Snipers in Korea were equipped with 1903A3 Variant Springfield’s, and National Match M1’s(which were used in competition shooting because they were more accurate than the standard M1) Equipped with 4 power scopes(the M1D model). The accuracy of the M1 was not as good as that of the Springfield, due to the need to offset the scope, and have major Eye Relief built-in to the rifle due to the Clip Feed of the M1. These M1’s still were able to reach ranges of 500 yards accurately. In Korea the use of the .50 caliber round for sniping was first seen. M2 Machine Guns mounted with a 10 power scope were able to reach ranges of 2800 yards effectively, Snipers also experimented with .55 Caliber Boy’s antitank rifles modified to take .50 caliber rounds, and mounted with scopes which had the same range as the M2, but was able to be carried by a man whereas the M2’s were limited to fixed positions.


M1D Sniper Model

M1903A3 Sniper

M2 Machine Gun

Range

500 yards

1000 yards

2500 yards

Ammunition

.30-06

.30-06

.50 Caliber

 

Vietnam (1965-75)

Vietnam is the perfect example of how a sniper can be employed during combat. The restrictive ROE and vast open fields and rice paddy’s of Vietnam became prime sniper territory. The Marine Corps and the Army both Fielded Snipers. Army snipers were equipped with accurized versions of the M14 service rifle, accurate out to 700 yards. The Marine Corps fielded snipers equipped with Winchester Model 70 Hunting rifles firing the .30-06 cartridge, and later in the war snipers carried the M40, which fired the standard 7.62x51mm(.308) cartridge both of these rifles had an effective range of over 1000 yards. Also snipers used modified M2 .50 caliber machine guns, fitted with scopes. These were accurate to ranges out to 2500 yards. Normal infantry of the time fired the M16 Assault Rifle, and the enemy fired the AK-47 assault rifle. These rifles were designed for infantry combat which takes place in ranges of only around 200 yards, and can only be fired accurately up to 500 yards. Thus snipers were able to operate with impunity from beyond the range of effective return fire of the enemy.


M16

Winchester 70

M40

M14 Sniper

Range

500 yards

1000 yards

1000 Yards

700 yards

Ammunition

5.56mm

.30-06

7.62x51mm

7.62x51mm






Now through all these wars several things have remained in common among snipers, lets analyze these facts:

A sniper acts independently from standard infantry, not as a part of a unit but in a one or two man team.

This is possible in paintball, most of the time in scenario games, I am alone behind enemy lines trying to accomplish a mission. But you do very little if any tactical good for your team waiting in one spot for an entire game, hoping a target of high-value (such as the opposing general) walks by.

A sniper does not act at random, he selects targets of high value and eliminates them.

Targets of High Value in a military sense are:

  1. Officers:

    • Generals

    • Field Grade officers

    • Company Grade officers

  2. Forward Observers

  3. Crew Served Weaponry:

    • Heavy Machine Guns

    • Artillery Batteries

    • Mortar Crews

  4. Non Commissioned Officers

  5. Radiomen

Targets of High Value in Paintball:

  1. Generals

  2. Tank Crewman (if there are tanks)

  3. Um…. Yeah… that’s all I can think of...

The problem with selecting high value targets in a scenario paintball game is, there are very few. The vast majority of players play independently, not under any command and they do what they want. What officers and team captains there are do not look any different than any other players.

The Sniper fires at targets from beyond the range of return fire by the standard infantry weapons, or from distances that were beyond the training of the normal infantryman.

As you can see from the diagrams of the Sniper Rifles of the Period in comparison to the standard issue infantry weapons, the sniper rifle always has a great deal more range than infantry weapons, and the sniper has been trained to an accuracy standard that is beyond that of standard infantry training.

This is where sniping in paintball fails. All paintball markers except those equipped with the Flatline or Apex systems fire the same distance, around 25 yards or 75 feet. The Flatline will reach ranges of up to 150 ft, but because the ball loses velocity at the same rate as a normal paintball, the chances of getting a break, or a single accurate shot at those ranges are close to zero.

The sniper uses a single accurate shot to take his targets down.

The ammunition expended to kill ratio of a sniper in Vietnam was 1.7 rounds per kill. The average infantryman expended 50,000 rounds per confirmed kill.

It is possible to take targets down with a single shot in paintball. However it is near impossible to eliminate a target with a single shot from beyond the effective range of return fire by the enemy.

A sniper uses camouflage and concealment to hide himself from his enemies to eliminate his targets.

No qualms with this, it can be done. Most every scenario paintball player does it. Using camouflage doe not make you sniper.



Now as you can see there are several places where sniping fails in paintball. Now look at the definition of a Sharpshooter:

A sharpshooter… is a rifleman (proficient or otherwise) who acts in an opportunist manner, taking shots at the enemy when the chance arises”

From SNIPER by Adrian Gilbert

Ok, this looks a little more feasible in the game of paintball than the sniper definition doesn’t it?

For paintball purposes we can strike rifleman, because there are no rifles in paintball.

who acts in an opportunist manner, taking shots at the enemy when the chance arises”

This sounds feasible. The definition of a sniper that Spec Ops puts forth is one of an “ambush player” that fires from concealment, using camouflage. The problem with the Spec Ops definition of a sniper is that it perfectly describes the definition of a sharpshooter in a military sense.

So we will set forth the definition of a Sharpshooter in paintball. This is what most of you would call a Sniper in paintball.

A sharpshooter takes shots from concealment, shoots at targets as the opportunity arises, and uses a marker that has the same range as everyone else’s. This is not a Sniper. This is a sharpshooter. You will never be a sniper in paintball simple ballistics prevent this from ever happening.

The fact of the matter is if you think you are a sniper in paintball, your terminology is wrong. The definition of a sharpshooter, fits paintball a lot closer that the definition of a sniper. But for those of you who insist that you are still snipers, look at an analogy: You work for a living. Your job is to go to people’s houses and businesses, to pick up their trash and take it to the dump. You drive a Garbage Truck. What would you be called, a Garbage Man, or a Professional Truck Driver?

You would be called a Garbage Man, would you not? As much as you would prefer to be called a Professional Truck Driver, everyone would call you a Garbage Man because it fits what you are doing better than the title Professional Truck Driver does.


The definition of Sharpshooter, or a Designated Marksman fits what you are doing in paintball a whole lot better than Sniper does. Stop fooling yourself.


References:


SNIPER- Adrian Gilbert

One Shot-One Kill- Charles W. Sasser and Craig Roberts

Marine Sniper- Charles Henderson


Authors Note: In my haste of writing this, I may have gotten some minor facts mixed up, or in the wrong place. Please contact me with the correct info if you have something to add, or a correction.




Edited by Snake6 - 26 May 2006 at 10:56pm
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1234 10>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 10.03

This page was generated in 0.156 seconds.