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Immigrant Boycott

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ShortyBP Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 May 2006 at 4:16pm
Originally posted by Calypso Calypso wrote:

Exactly.  I don't feal there's much you can argue against that.  Though I'm sure superman will find something...

I'm sure it can still be picked apart. I have no problem with that. But don't expect too much debate from me. I'm too tired to argue.
Legal immigrants seem to be the forgotten population. Everyone either looks at the plight of illegals, or the views of citizens who have been here for generations.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clark Kent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 May 2006 at 4:17pm

Dammit Shorty - you bumped my brilliant reply to the previous page!

:P

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ShortyBP Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 May 2006 at 4:19pm
It was all just an elaborate scheme to silence you.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Calypso Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 May 2006 at 4:25pm

Alright, Clark Kent.  First off, I respect your opinion that you need to think of this situation moraly.  But, moraly speaking, we should grant citizenship to those who, as ShortyBP stated, have been patiently waiting in line, FAR FAR before we grant amnesty to those who "snuck" in, which we should never do. 

Secondly, it undermines you statement in that we should not have to move across country to find a better job when we already had a perfectly good one before an illegal immigrant took it. 

And having your license revoked is far too big a punishment for speeding, but if that were the law, I WOULD abide by it.  Something more on the lines of "get a DUI, license taken away, forever."  That's the way it is in Germany and actually is a good idea.

The bottom line is that they came here illegaly, which means they have no right to be here and are NOT protected by the constitution as they are not citizens.

BTW, sorry if none of you know what I am talking about, I didn't feel like quoting Clark Kent's long post making it that much longer.  I'm replying to his last post on page 6.



Edited by Calypso - 03 May 2006 at 4:33pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Calypso Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 May 2006 at 4:27pm

Oh, and the Iriqouis, or any other tribe for that matter, did not control the whole country.  I believe we should not have kept pushing them farther and farther west, but that is in the past.

And, no, I am not descendent from illegal immigrants.  My ancestors came here legally...



Edited by Calypso - 03 May 2006 at 4:31pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clark Kent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 May 2006 at 4:44pm

I certainly agree that it is unfair to place illegals ahead of legal immigrants.  No doubt about it.  But most proposals out there would not do that.  This is a red herring that has been oversold.

And the issue largely isn't about citizenship - citizenship is just the last step in a tortured path towards full legal status.

Most of the proposals involve guest worker programs of some kind or other.  We already have guest worker programs, but most illegals do not qualify under existing categories.  What a new guest worker program would do would be to expand on this system, and create new categories that would envelop domestic/agricultural workers.

This would make these people "legal", but nowhere near citizens.

There are some proposals that are more radical, but I wouldn't expect them to get much support.

The point is that when you have a law that 12 million people are violating, you ought to start thinking that maybe, just maybe, you ought to change the law.  Sometimes it's the law that is bad, not the behavior.  But I already posted this a few pages back.

My point about moving to get a better job was not intended to imply that we should let illegals take ours - it was rather in direct response to Linus' whining about how hard it is to move to a job, regardless of any immigration issues.

As to speeding - my point is again that "illegal" cannot be the beginning and end of the conversation.  We all do illegal things on occasion.  There has to be more to the discussion.

And this merits special notice:

Originally posted by calypso calypso wrote:

they ... are NOT protected by the constitution as they are not citizens.

The Constitution is not limited in application to citizens.  Many people seem to believe this, which is a sad statement about our school system.  This statement is completely false.

My general capitalism diatribe on the last page appears to have distracted/confused the situation vis-a-vis my notes about immigration on previous pages.  I encourage all readers to look at pages 2-5 for more detail.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Calypso Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 May 2006 at 4:51pm
Originally posted by Clark Kent Clark Kent wrote:

The point is that when you have a law that 12 million people are violating, you ought to start thinking that maybe, just maybe, you ought to change the law.  Sometimes it's the law that is bad, not the behavior.  But I already posted this a few pages back.

So we should legalize drunk driving? 

props on your knowlege of the situation though.  most people I argue with are just complete morons.



Edited by Calypso - 03 May 2006 at 4:52pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clark Kent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 May 2006 at 4:53pm

Originally posted by Calypso Calypso wrote:

So we should legalize drunk driving? 

I'm starting to think you are misunderstanding me on purpose...

Nobody is that wrong by accident.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Linus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 May 2006 at 4:53pm
Originally posted by Calypso Calypso wrote:

Originally posted by Clark Kent Clark Kent wrote:


The point is that when you have a law that 12 million people are violating, you ought to start thinking that maybe, just maybe, you ought to change the law.  Sometimes it's the law that is bad, not the behavior.  But I already posted this a few pages back.



So we should legalize drunk driving? 


props on your knowlege of the situation though.  most people I argue with are just complete morons.

I will even venture to say that that is a bit extreme... that kills people rather then just ruining lives.

And yes, Clark is only of the only few people on this forum that is able to hold a debate.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MeanMan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 May 2006 at 4:59pm

im thinking of all the illegal people and how do they get drivers licenses?

i mean come on, they want to be american, well America is too lazy to walk to work, or to the store everyday

do they counterfeit births certificates?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rico's Revenge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 May 2006 at 5:01pm

I have a question... how come valid points like, "Illegal Immigrants don't pay SS" and "To give the possibility of US Citizenship to Illegals ahead of Legals is Wrong" are "red herrings or overstated?"   

BTW, SOCIAL SECURITY WILL PAY FOR THE CARE OF A PERSON'S CHILD EVEN IF THAT PERSON IS AN ILLEGAL IMMIGRANT.   The mother must only show that they are not working in the US.

Also, speaking about the economics of an illegal worker... how much of the money that they earn, regardless of the minuteness of the amount, stays in this country?   Not Much.   That money gets sent straight to the mother land to pay the mules to bring more people into the country illegally.

Lets go to another issue that has been largely ignored in the illegal immigration arguement... National Security.   I realize that many of the people involved entered the Country legally, but, if 9/11 didn't prove that our borders need better protection for whom they allow into the Country legally OR illegally, then I don't know what will.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Linus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 May 2006 at 5:03pm
Originally posted by MeanMan MeanMan wrote:

im thinking of all the illegal people and how do they get drivers licenses?


i mean come on, they want to be american, well America is too lazy to walk to work, or to the store everyday


do they counterfeit births certificates?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MeanMan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 May 2006 at 5:03pm

what, put up a massive steel/concrete wall like the magriot line(sp?) like the french did to the germans(learned about it recently in Western Civ.)

 

that might work, it would have to be massive though


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Calypso Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 May 2006 at 5:05pm
Originally posted by MeanMan MeanMan wrote:

im thinking of all the illegal people and how do they get drivers licenses?

i mean come on, they want to be american, well America is too lazy to walk to work, or to the store everyday

do they counterfeit births certificates?

Actually here in Michigan, it is possible for someone to take a driver's test, pass, and give the certificate to someone else.

And I know that drunk driving is a bit more extreme than illegal immigration, but more people drive above the legal limit than there are people that illegally come to this country.  the equivilent to granting amnesty would be slightly raising the legel drinking level.  Both are a stupid thing to do...

Don't get me wrong, I thought about that post before I posted it and thoght, "meh, what the hell, I'll post it."  I'm not that stupid.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Linus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 May 2006 at 5:08pm
OT, but Caly, where in Michigan do you live?

And people in Michigan have a lot of knowledge when it comes to immigration--- we deal with Canadians everyday and Dearborn (15 minutes away from me) is the LARGEST population of Arabs outside of the middle east.

Edited by Linus - 03 May 2006 at 5:09pm

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Calypso Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 May 2006 at 5:10pm

Originally posted by Linus Linus wrote:

OT, but Caly, where in Michigan do you live?

And people in Michigan have a lot of knowledge when it comes to immigration--- we deal with Canadians everyday and Dearborn (15 minutes away from me) is the LARGEST population of Arabs outside of the middle east.

I live in GR

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote warman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 May 2006 at 6:09pm
I eat immigrants
N is for nowledge

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clark Kent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 May 2006 at 6:25pm
Originally posted by Rico's Revenge Rico's Revenge wrote:

I have a question... how come valid points like, "Illegal Immigrants don't pay SS" and "To give the possibility of US Citizenship to Illegals ahead of Legals is Wrong" are "red herrings or overstated?"   

BTW, SOCIAL SECURITY WILL PAY FOR THE CARE OF A PERSON'S CHILD EVEN IF THAT PERSON IS AN ILLEGAL IMMIGRANT.   The mother must only show that they are not working in the US.

You are thinking of AFDC or other welfare programs.  Actual social security is a pay-in program.  You pay social security taxes, and qualify for retirement benefits accordingly (there are other benefits, such as disability, but retirement is the main thing).  Social security does not pay for children.  That's AFDC.

Social security taxes are withheld from paychecks, and tied to your social secuity number.  If you are working cash without a paycheck, then nothing is withheld (illegal but common), and you are not paying ss taxes.  If you are using a fake ss card, then you are paying ss taxes, but you won't get the benefit of the payments you are making.

This effect is pretty well documented.  Illegal immigrants have contributed millions and millions of dollars to our ailing social security, without any rights to the benefits thereunder.

As for the "giving citizenship ahead of legals" - that's a red herring, or rather a straw man, because most proposals out there say no such thing.  Very few supporters of increased rights for illegals are suggesting that illegals should go to the head of the line.

Quote Also, speaking about the economics of an illegal worker... how much of the money that they earn, regardless of the minuteness of the amount, stays in this country?   Not Much.   That money gets sent straight to the mother land to pay the mules to bring more people into the country illegally.

Wrong and wrong.

First, focusing on the money is a mistake.  The principal value that any person, immigrant or otherwise, contributes to the economy is labor.  Arguably, that is the ONLY value.  Wealth of Nations, chapter one.  This is the most basic fundament of economics.  Focusing on money is a huge mistake.  Moreover, illegals contribute MORE labor than other folks, since they are paid less.  By basic economic theory, an underpaid illegal immigrant contributes MORE to the national economy than an equivalent legal worker.

Second, illegals leave plenty of money here - they pay taxes (lots of taxes), they buy food, gas, cigarettes, beer, they rent an apartment, they watch TV.  Whatever. 

Third - Yes, they send money abroad - but so what?  We all send money abroad.  You drive a Lexus - where do you think that money goes?  Of course, when the illegals' money arrives in Mexico, much of it finds its way back to the US when they buy a beat-up old Ford pickup.  Again, econ 101 - focusing on cash flow is a mistake in a global economy.  Cash is important, yes - but it is dwarfed by other considerations in this case.

Quote Lets go to another issue that has been largely ignored in the illegal immigration arguement... National Security.  

How has this been ignored?  It has been all over.  Heck, it has been all over this thread.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clark Kent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 May 2006 at 6:26pm

Originally posted by Calypso Calypso wrote:

And I know that drunk driving is a bit more extreme than illegal immigration, but more people drive above the legal limit than there are people that illegally come to this country. 

That was not my point.  My point was that when a law is broken frequently, we should THINK about changing it.  Sometimes the law is right, and we just need better enforcement. 

All I am saying - again - is that we cannot go straight from "illegal" to "bad".  There has to be thought in between.  Sometimes illegal is in fact bad - we just can't jump to that conclusion.



Edited by Clark Kent - 03 May 2006 at 6:43pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brihard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 May 2006 at 6:30pm
Originally posted by Linus Linus wrote:

OT, but Caly, where in Michigan do you live?

And people in Michigan have a lot of knowledge when it comes to immigration--- we deal with Canadians everyday and Dearborn (15 minutes away from me) is the LARGEST population of Arabs outside of the middle east.


So linus, what are the figures on Canadians immigrating to Michigan?
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