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Immigrant Boycott

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Linus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 May 2006 at 10:10am
Just talked to my dad... one girl, 16 years old, was a no call, no show yesterday. She's a natural American who has a hispanic background.

EDIT: But we did 500 more sales then last monday... so no boycott there.

Edited by Linus - 02 May 2006 at 10:27am

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clark Kent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 May 2006 at 11:08am

Originally posted by Linus Linus wrote:

Grant them green cards, but not citizenship.

And right there you proclaim loudly and clearly that you have no understanding of the issues.

Citizens talk loudly about citizenship - for immigrants, it's all about the green card.  The green card is the important part.  Citizenship is just gravy, and many choose never to become citizens.

Originally posted by Linus Linus wrote:

Plus.. look at videos of the rallies... you will see 1 American flag for every 4 or 5 Mexican flags.

They are fighting to live/work in this country.. but they still promote their country more?

At my rally, the tally was more like 20 US flags to 1 Mexican flag - but that's not important.

What IS important is that Americans fly a variety of flags.  If I look out my window, I can see flags of four different nations being flown.  There is a town in Wisconsin (Stoughton) that flies Norwegian flags every day of the year, on every street, with taxpayer money.  Stoughton also claims the biggest celebration in the world(!) of the Norwegian national holiday. 

Just here in Milwaukee, which is not the most ethnically diverse town in the country, you can easily find German flags, Polish flags, Swedish flags, French flags, Vietnamese flags, Italian flags, British flags, Irish flags...  These flags are flown by businesses, in people's homes, they are flown every day and for special occasions.

This is true today, and it was true 200 years ago.  It is true whether these are actual immigrants or people celebrating their heritage.

I continue to find it bizarre how many Americans complain about the darn Mexicans with their Mexican flags - and then go to the Irish pub for a pint o' Guinness.  It is hypocrisy of the highest order.

This country has NEVER been that homogeneous.

Originally posted by Linus Linus wrote:

To wave a Mexican flag while proclaiming they want to be in America is basically a slap in the face to every American, whether you believe it or not.

And once again, this simply proclaims that you do not understand immigrant mindset.  I agree that it is a poor idea, politically speaking, to be waving Mexican flags at these rallies, but this is only true because of myopic thinking like yours.

It is perfectly possible - heck, almost automatic - that an immigrant loves his new country with fervent passion, while at the same time celebrates old country holidays with greater enthusiasm than he ever did at home.

Quote Plus, they abuse the system. They come into the country pregnant, have the baby, and then cannot be kicked out. Cheap trick.

Generalizing a little, are we?  I'm pretty sure that your "they" in this example doesn't include Jose' or Miguel.

Yes, there are abuses, and lots of them.  Yes, our system has many unfortunate loopholes that need to be fixed.

But to declare that "they" abuse the system is staggeringly offensive, and reduces your credibility in this issues yet further, if that is possible.

 

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clark Kent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 May 2006 at 11:09am

Originally posted by oldsoldier oldsoldier wrote:

Legal immigration has never been a problem.

That's all I needed to read before realizing that OS also is on a different planet.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cadet_sergeant Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 May 2006 at 11:24am
Originally posted by Clark Kent Clark Kent wrote:

Quote Plus, they abuse the system. They come into the country pregnant, have the baby, and then cannot be kicked out. Cheap trick.

Generalizing a little, are we?  I'm pretty sure that your "they" in this example doesn't include Jose' or Miguel.

Yes, there are abuses, and lots of them.  Yes, our system has many unfortunate loopholes that need to be fixed.

But to declare that "they" abuse the system is staggeringly offensive, and reduces your credibility in this issues yet further, if that is possible.

I've heard reports of young mothers crossing the border having babies and cutting the cord with nail clippers. I think its pretty nasty, and the chance of catching something is really bad not to mention the possability of dehydration in the Cal., Az., Nm., Tx. deserts with the heat reaching the 100's at leaste here in Az. (please excuse me for not caring what the temps in the other border states are). unfortunatly the cheap labor from Illegal immagrants is needed in places like Phoenix where the housing market is booming, coupled with all the Graduating seniors going to college rather then joining the labor force doesnt help at least Arizonas job market (not everyone belongs in college im probley one of those people). sorry i had more but the bell just rang.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clark Kent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 May 2006 at 11:31am

Originally posted by cadet_sergeant cadet_sergeant wrote:

[I've heard reports of young mothers crossing the border having babies and cutting the cord with nail clippers. I think its pretty nasty

Yeah, that whole practice is pretty nasty on a number of levels.  Clearly we should find ways to stop that.

Quote unfortunatly the cheap labor from Illegal immagrants is needed in places like Phoenix where the housing market is booming

And not just there.  The ag industry in the Northwest depends almost entirely on undocumented and migrant labor - and there are no displaced American laborers there either.  Similar situations hold in the rural upper Midwest as well, where the ag industry is always in desparate need of short-term labor in small towns where nobody lives.

 



Edited by Clark Kent - 02 May 2006 at 11:32am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Simma Down!! Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 May 2006 at 12:12pm
Fire her! Some people just look for an easy way out. Even if there not illegals there were some people who wouldnt work just so they could sit on the couch and eat ice cream while watching the price is right.

Originally posted by Linus Linus wrote:

Just talked to my dad... one girl, 16 years old, was a no call, no show yesterday. She's a natural American who has a hispanic background.

EDIT: But we did 500 more sales then last monday... so no boycott there.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cadet_sergeant Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 May 2006 at 12:49pm

Originally posted by Simma Down!! Simma Down!! wrote:

Fire her! Some people just look for an easy way out. Even if there not illegals there were some people who wouldnt work just so they could sit on the couch and eat ice cream while watching the price is right.

holy freakin cow i totaly did that yesturday, i was home puking all day though. that guy totaly under bid his showcase 36k+ change his guess was under 20k, i got close to the ladys my guess was 36 it was 37.4k if i remember correctly.

any way, i heard that forbes mag. had an article about the top 10 reasons not to go to college. havnt had much time to look into it. but if its true it should be an interesting article.

 

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote plasoccri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 May 2006 at 1:09pm

The only immigrants arround here live in the appartments that have come to be known as "Little Tiawana" (sp) and they never leave their front steps other than to buy beer, smokes, and drugs. So no, nothing out of the norm here.

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clark Kent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 May 2006 at 1:42pm
^^^^^^  Well, I am glad to see that you continue the trend of idiotic generalizations...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRAVELER Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 May 2006 at 2:09pm
Originally posted by Clark Kent Clark Kent wrote:

I do believe the purpose of the boycott/demonstrations was IMMIGRANT issues, not ILLEGAL immigrant issues...


If you believe what you are saying, then you are so far out of touch of reality that no one here should take ANYTHING you have to say on any subject seriously.

If you don't believe what you are saying, but are saying it anyway, I call you a liar, and I wish I could tell it to your face.

You yourself should live in a border area. You should have to wait behind the long lines of illegal aliens and Mexican nationals at your local emergency room while realizing that 20 percent of the property tax you are paying is going to fund this hospital. And that the reason you are paying that percentage is because the people in line in front of you will never pay a single cent for the treatment they will receive.

You should have to put your children in the local public schools which are overcrowded with the children of illegal aliens and Mexican nationals. Your children will get to learn primarily of the conquistadores and the spreading of Spanish influence throughout the Americas, though don't expect them to be taught any United States history until they reach the junior high level.

You should be a police officer cleaning up knife fights between illegal aliens and Mexican nationals, arresting the wrong doers and putting them into the county jail. Of course they'll feel at home there, as the jail is around 70% populated by their countrymen. You should get to clean up the various traffic crashes caused by drunken, unlicensed, and uninsured illegal aliens and Mexican nationals. Perhaps you'll get to bury one of your family members that was killed in such an accident, and get no justice because the offending driver fled back over the border.

You should get to spend the morning, noon, and evening at the local social services where the mothers of "anchor babies" are waiting for their foodstamp and welfare applications to be processed and eventually approved.

You should get a job in construction, and find that the job that used to pay you $15 an hour now only pays $10 an hour. And if you don't speak Spanish, you aren't likely to get a job on many work crews regardless of how poor the pay is.

I have lived all of the experiences listed above.

Perhaps the truth would be the best thing. Perhaps people here should know about the influence and funding of these "immigration" rallies by organizations like "International Answer", and the "World Worker's Party".

Maybe people would be interested to know that these organizations send out the rally notices, provide the buses to transport demonstrators, and hand out American flags so as not to allow their rallys to become too "offensive".

People may or may not know that these groups are socialist organizations who organize rallys throughout the world to promote their cause. And a major goal in their cause is to destabilize our society to the point that their ideology begins to take hold.

But even those who are members of such organizations may not realize that their so called "leaders" are no less greedy and corrupt than the capitalists whom they pretend to hate.

It is beyond stupidity to say nothing political be said in this thread about this subject because the "immigration" issue is one of the largest political battlefields in the world at the moment.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clark Kent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 May 2006 at 2:25pm

Originally posted by TRAVELER TRAVELER wrote:

Originally posted by Clark Kent Clark Kent wrote:

I do believe the purpose of the boycott/demonstrations was IMMIGRANT issues, not ILLEGAL immigrant issues...


If you believe what you are saying, then you are so far out of touch of reality that no one here should take ANYTHING you have to say on any subject seriously.

I posit that I am an excellent position to have an opinion on this, and posit that I am more in touch and better informed on immigrant issues generally than you, and most others on the forum.

I am an immigrant.  A LEGAL immigrant.  So is most of my family, and many of my friends, neighbors, and coworkers.

So when I say that the boycotts/demonstrations were not only about illegal issues, but also about issues pertaining to all immigrants, I am most certainly "in touch".

I speak from personal experience on all aspects of this issue, not merely from dating a furreigner.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zesty Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 May 2006 at 2:37pm
I live in Central Coast California, and it is like 90% mexican around here. Needless to say, I noticed a LOT was different. There was literally one store open in my town, and it was run by a smart white man. He took all the business from everybody, it was great.

The mexican's protest actually went even further to better the white-man's finacial situation....smart move!

All they did was waste a potentially productive day, IMHO. Way to show what an asset you are to our society!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mbro Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 May 2006 at 2:44pm
I was waiting to see how long before clark would take out his trump card in this thread. Well played sir, well played.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brihard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 May 2006 at 3:09pm
Both Clark and Traveller have valuable things to say. ALL of Traveller's comments are echoed by people I know down in the states, many of whom live in border regions. I've spoken to a few people who've taken part in the Minuteman project; I've spoken to people who work in various services in the region, and the economic effects of the ILLEGAL immigration are huge.

Fundamentally, securing the border is essential to proper national and local security. The immigration syste needs to be voerhauled to allo for greater legal immigration, but the U.S. government has a responsibility to secure the border and KNOW who's going across. The criminal and security threats are too severe to do otherwise.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clark Kent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 May 2006 at 3:25pm

Originally posted by brihard brihard wrote:

ALL of Traveller's comments are echoed by people I know down in the states, many of whom live in border regions.

No doubt.  I have also heard each of those many times.  But while valid, also note the sense of entitlement that goes through.  There is a sense that "we" are somehow entitled to have "our" history taught, entitled to not stand in line, to get paid a certain wage.

While those complaints are valid, they are also very selfish and shortsighted.

Quote the economic effects of the ILLEGAL immigration are huge.

This is a MUCH more complicated issue.  The real question is "effects on whom?"  Any student of basic economic theory can tell you that open borders (work-wise) is a GREAT boon for all economies involved.  There is little doubt among Adamsian economists that we should have LESS restriction on immigration rather than more.  If we let anybody come here to work that wanted to, it would (just like outsourcing) ultimately provide tremendous benefit to the US economy.

Of course, this efficient market behavior is frustrated by illegals (and their employers) avoiding labor laws.  In order to create an efficient market we must have consistently applied rules.

On the other hand, by working super-cheap, the illegals are essentially donating a significant amount of their labor to the market for free, which is also a great boon to the economy.

When most people say "the effect on the economy" they tend to mean "I lost my job" or "my salary went down" or "there is increased pressure on social benefits".

For the first two, I feel a combination of "tough noogies" and "we need to apply labor laws consistently". 

For the last one - well, again more complicated.  Most immigrants - legal or illegal - are working, and therefore contributing to society.  If they are working below minimum wage, they are actually contributing MORE to the economy than their American counterpart.  Certainly they should be entitled to the same benefits as other workers.  But here also there is a complicated interaction with feelings of entitlement, which are not necessarily unjustified.

Quote Fundamentally, securing the border is essential to proper national and local security.

Absolutely.  I continue to be shocked at the lack of basic security at both of our borders.

Quote The immigration syste needs to be voerhauled to allo for greater legal immigration, but the U.S. government has a responsibility to secure the border and KNOW who's going across. The criminal and security threats are too severe to do otherwise.

Ditto.

Clearly we need to be in a position to protect ourselves - from physical threats.

Protecting ourselves from Mexican workers is isolationist and protectionist, and is doomed to fail, or - more likely - simply backfire.  We have an opportunity for great gain to the American economy, but simple xenophobia and feelings of entitlement making us squander that opportunity.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gatyr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 May 2006 at 3:35pm
Just to clarify because im mildly confused:

Is this debate/the rallies about Immigrant issues as a whole, legal immigrants, or illegal immigrants?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Linus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 May 2006 at 3:35pm
Originally posted by Clark Kent Clark Kent wrote:


Originally posted by Linus Linus wrote:

Plus.. look at videos of the rallies... you will see 1 American flag for every 4 or 5 Mexican flags. They are fighting to live/work in this country.. but they still promote their country more?


At my rally, the tally was more like 20 US flags to 1 Mexican flag - but that's not important.


I continue to find it bizarre how many Americans complain about the darn Mexicans with their Mexican flags - and then go to the Irish pub for a pint o' Guinness.  It is hypocrisy of the highest order.

Actually, no, no hypocracy. To buy a business/service? Hypocritical? Wow.. that's one of the dumbest things I've heard you say (type).

Most people that fly flags have assimilated into our culture, and they still want to retain part of their heritage. That's 100% fine with me. But to fight for the right to live in this country, whilst saying "Mexico is better" (I know people like that...) is wrong.

You dont leave one business for a better one, and still promote the old one.

If they are SO keen on keeping their country as a part of them, but still havin a good life, why dont they petition Fox so that they can make their country a better place?

Why bring down our way of living? Why make it worse for us? Why bring down wages?


Originally posted by Clark Clark wrote:


Originally posted by Linus Linus wrote:

To wave a Mexican flag while proclaiming they want to be in America is basically a slap in the face to every American, whether you believe it or not.


And once again, this simply proclaims that you do not understand immigrant mindset.  I agree that it is a poor idea, politically speaking, to be waving Mexican flags at these rallies, but this is only true because of myopic thinking like yours.

And yours too. Dont put it all on me when you just admitted it too.

Originally posted by Clark Clark wrote:

Quote Plus, they abuse the system. They come into the country pregnant, have the baby, and then cannot be kicked out. Cheap trick.


Generalizing a little, are we?  I'm pretty sure that your "they" in this example doesn't include Jose' or Miguel.


Yes, there are abuses, and lots of them.

Yes, I did generalize, becuase there are a lot, like you said.

If they are willing enough to break a law, wouldn't they be lowly enough to use a loop-hole like that?


Originally posted by Clark Clark wrote:

Yes, our system has many unfortunate loopholes that need to be fixed.


But to declare that "they" abuse the system is staggeringly offensive, and reduces your credibility in this issues yet further, if that is possible.


 


 

I agree, loopholes need to be covered up, but to insult my knowledge on this simply because you dont agree with some things I have said is utterly idiotic.



Again, the main issue, contrary to what you say and think, is about illegals, NOT immigration. Sure, there are people that are trying to streamline the process of getting citizenship, but the majority of the people protesting are protesting for ILLEGALS rights.


Like I said before... pardon one offense and you allow the comission of many.

WHY on earth would you reward someone for breaking a law? A law that is SOO easy to follow, but still achieve what you want.


But, to make it clear... I'm discussing ILLEGALS, not LEGALS. ANd I know my stuff, my family owns a business in Texas. 20 employees. 15 hispanic, 1 black, 1 arab, 3 whites (me and my parents), so it would be a little naiive to not pay attention to it, and not know anything about it.

Edited by Linus - 02 May 2006 at 3:39pm

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clark Kent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 May 2006 at 3:37pm

Originally posted by Gatyr Gatyr wrote:

Just to clarify because im mildly confused:

Is this debate/the rallies about Immigrant issues as a whole, legal immigrants, or illegal immigrants?

Apparently either, both, or neither.

:)

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clark Kent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 May 2006 at 3:57pm
Originally posted by Linus Linus wrote:

Originally posted by Clark Kent Clark Kent wrote:

I continue to find it bizarre how many Americans complain about the darn Mexicans with their Mexican flags - and then go to the Irish pub for a pint o' Guinness.  It is hypocrisy of the highest order.

Actually, no, no hypocracy. To buy a business/service? Hypocritical? Wow.. that's one of the dumbest things I've heard you say (type).

Yeah, that example didn't come across as well as I meant it to...  I was thinking of a particular friend of mine - American-born, but VERY proud of his "Irishness".  Refers to it as the "old country", sends his kids to Irish dancing classes, flies Irish flags, goes to Ireland regularly, and glorifies Ireland above all on a regular basis.

Originally posted by Linus Linus wrote:

But to fight for the right to live in this country, whilst saying "Mexico is better" (I know people like that...) is wrong.

And do not know a single immigrant - not one - who has NOT at one point or other said "old country is better".  How is that wrong?  People move to California from NY, voluntarily, live there the rest of their lives, and continue to complain about how much better NY is.  It's just human nature.  There is nothing sinister about it. 

Heck, you used to complain about Michigan - then you moved away form Michigan, and now you are always talking up Michigan.  It's just human nature.  Same for immigrants as everybody else.

Quote If they are SO keen on keeping their country as a part of them, but still havin a good life, why dont they petition [Vicente] Fox so that they can make their country a better place?

You are missing the point.  People come here seeking something better.  Emigrants usually have very mixed feelings and conflicts about the old country.  It's just not that simple.

Quote Why bring down our way of living? Why make it worse for us?

Who is bringing what down?  This whole country was built on immigrants.  To say that immigrants bring anything down is silly.

Originally posted by Linus Linus wrote:

Originally posted by Clark Clark wrote:

Yes, our system has many unfortunate loopholes that need to be fixed.

But to declare that "they" abuse the system is staggeringly offensive, and reduces your credibility in this issues yet further, if that is possible.

I agree, loopholes need to be covered up, but to insult my knowledge on this simply because you dont agree with some things I have said is utterly idiotic.

Nothing to do with your knowledge.  It's your entitlement and your xenophobia.

It's the "they".  "They" are breaking the rules, and "they" are getting pregnant, and "they" are bringing down the economy.

It's offensive.

Originally posted by Linus Linus wrote:

Again, the main issue, contrary to what you say and think, is about illegals, NOT immigration.

You cannot separate the two.  Those are not two separate issues - they are the same issue.  It's like suggesting that speeding and speed limits are separate issues.

"Illegals" are IMMIGRANTS.  Anybody who has been through the legal process knows that there is a very fine line between "legal" and "illegal".  Sometimes it is flat out theoretical, other times it is simply a matter of degree.

The way to fix our "illegal" problem is by fixing our "legal" system. 

Originally posted by Linus Linus wrote:

Sure, there are people that are trying to streamline the process of getting citizenship

Not so much - as I said earlier, it is about the green card.  Citizenship is very secondary.  This is an important distinction, that most Americans (including Congress and the news media) have completely missed.

Quote ... but the majority of the people protesting are protesting for ILLEGALS rights.

I don't disagree with that - what I am saying is that it is still an important issue for ALL immigrants.  Yes, the focus is on illegals - but I was still temped to go join those illegals marching in the street.

Quote Like I said before... pardon one offense and you allow the comission of many.

Yes, you have said that before, as have many others.

It is still an idiotic generalization.  Real life is more complex than that.


Originally posted by Linus Linus wrote:

WHY on earth would you reward someone for breaking a law? A law that is SOO easy to follow, but still achieve what you want.

And thus you prove beyond any doubt whatsoever that you have ABSOLUTELY no idea or understanding of how US immigration laws work.  Seriously.



Edited by Clark Kent - 02 May 2006 at 4:27pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote You Wont See Me Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 May 2006 at 4:34pm
There was alot less mexicans standing around blocking the hallways in the school.

Other than that, it was a noirmal day.
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