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Immigrantion Issue

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djrox View Drop Down
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    Posted: 28 March 2006 at 10:26am
It looks like at lot of controversy has been stired up over illegal immigration. I have a big probelm with illegal aliens. I do not have  a problem at all with the ones that enter the country legally though. I just think that when these people can enter our county whenever they want too, it is something we should worry about. How do we know that the people sneeking in aren't members of terrorist organizations. We don't. Because of this Bush needs to set up more security on our borders.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The American Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 March 2006 at 10:30am
I agree, but its not exactly easy to have the whole coast line/boarder protected.  I mean, lets be realistic, you can't have a boarder patrol guy every 5 feet along the boarder.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote reifidom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 March 2006 at 10:31am
You can if you hire illegal immigrants to do it.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djrox Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 March 2006 at 10:32am
Originally posted by reifidom reifidom wrote:

You can if you hire illegal immigrants to do it.

And pay um next to nothing. JK
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brihard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 March 2006 at 11:09am
A battallion or two of infantry along with surveillance assets and in close cooperation with the border patrol could stop up most of the border easily enough.

Most of you guys haven't likely been paying any attention to this issue, but I know a lot of folks that do, and its scary what's going on there. Border patrol agents have been engaged by elements of the Mexican military working in concert with drug smugglers. The administration is failing utterly in its duty to protect the nation by not securing the southern border.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stratoaxe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 March 2006 at 11:30am

My problem with the illegal immigrant debate is this: there's really no debate. Key word here- illegal immigrant. All the marching and protesting is ignorant and pointless. It's against the law to be here in the manner they are here. End of story.

I agree somebody needs to get off their duff and work on getting our borders tightened up. I live in Texas, and every tenth person you meet can't speak English at all, and probably don't even have a comprehension of our legal system. It's a major problem, IMO. I think we can afford to lay off terrorism and what country to bomb next for a while and worry about our own border problems.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote merc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 March 2006 at 11:42am
fence
land mines
wall with machine guns...

thats what i say we do... but ive heard people dont like landmines anymore...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clark Kent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 March 2006 at 11:49am

Most people know I am not a big fan of GW in most things, but I continue to be impressed with his handling of this issue.

Unlike most people, including most people in this thread, Bush realizes that this is a complicated issue, and simply declaring that "oe noez th3y are teh illegalzozrz" is not productive.

When a law is broken this routinely there is usually a problem with the law or the policy underlying the law.  Don't most Americans casually disregard the speed limit for this exact reason?

Fact of the matter is that the entire US immigration system is messed up.  Illegal aliens are the least of our problems - the system for LEGAL immigration/temporary work permits is completely useless and counterproductive.

Moreover, as Bush recognizes, it would be very very bad for the US economy if what is now illegal immigration stopped suddenly.  This is rather obvious to anybody in an agricultural setting.  If we were truly serious about stopping illegal immigration it would be a relatively easy to do so, but nobody wants to take the required steps, for political and economic reasons.

The minutemen are idiots - first off, they are xenophobically patrolling the wrong border, if they are concerned about terrorists.  Second, what they are primarily doing is keeping the illegal Mexicans IN the country, not keeping them out.

This is a very complicated issue, that has everything to do with economics, both domestic and global, and has nothing to do with walls.

Bush is making an honest go at it, and I laud him for that.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clark Kent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 March 2006 at 11:54am

Originally posted by djrox djrox wrote:

I have a big probelm with illegal aliens. I do not have  a problem at all with the ones that enter the country legally though.

Thousands upon thousands of illegal aliens entered the country legally.

Quote How do we know that the people sneeking in aren't members of terrorist organizations. We don't. Because of this Bush needs to set up more security on our borders.

I am not necessarily opposed to more border security, but keep in mind that all the 9/11 terrorists entered the country LEGALLY.  And if I were a terrorist, that's the way I would do it too.  Why bother sneaking when I can get a tourist visa?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brihard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 March 2006 at 12:12pm
Originally posted by Clark Kent Clark Kent wrote:

Most people know I am not a big fan of GW in most things, but I continue to be impressed with his handling of this issue.

Unlike most people, including most people in this thread, Bush realizes that this is a complicated issue, and simply declaring that "oe noez th3y are teh illegalzozrz" is not productive.

When a law is broken this routinely there is usually a problem with the law or the policy underlying the law.  Don't most Americans casually disregard the speed limit for this exact reason?

Fact of the matter is that the entire US immigration system is messed up.  Illegal aliens are the least of our problems - the system for LEGAL immigration/temporary work permits is completely useless and counterproductive.

Moreover, as Bush recognizes, it would be very very bad for the US economy if what is now illegal immigration stopped suddenly.  This is rather obvious to anybody in an agricultural setting.  If we were truly serious about stopping illegal immigration it would be a relatively easy to do so, but nobody wants to take the required steps, for political and economic reasons.

The minutemen are idiots - first off, they are xenophobically patrolling the wrong border, if they are concerned about terrorists.  Second, what they are primarily doing is keeping the illegal Mexicans IN the country, not keeping them out.

This is a very complicated issue, that has everything to do with economics, both domestic and global, and has nothing to do with walls.

Bush is making an honest go at it, and I laud him for that.



The border is an incredibly open path for drug and human smuggling. and has allowed criminal gangs like MS-13 to gain incredible power in the American underworld. U.S. sovereignty is under direct assault. Border patrola nd police are often shot at by these gangs, and do not have the teeth to fight back to protect the border from incursion.

there Is an underlyuing problem with the law- it's not being enforced. We speed ebcasue we don't expect to get caught, not for some profound reason of civil disobedience.

Illegals suck incredible amounts of funding out of the socail assistants, judicial, and penal systems, and by the very anture of their illegal status do not pay any taxes back into the system. Money sent by illegal residents is Mexico's second alrgest source of income.

Mexican military units have even been corrupted by the criminal gangs, and have protected them AND crossed the border into the U.S.- there they fired on border patrol agents to protect the criminals from apprehension. This is all verifiable through legit news sources.

The immigration system needs to be overhauled, but there is no need for any tolerance of flouting of the laws- if people want to move to the U.S., they need to be willing to accept the code of laws of the nation they've deemed is better to live in than their own.

There's a simple answer to illegals; ship 'em back across the border. Keep them out through whatever means are necessary, and any you catch, send them back. Expand and facilitate legal immigration, but make sure the nation can keep tabs on everyone coming in. There should be stricter control of the northern border too, but to suggest that terrorists and sympathizers are not entering through the southern border is both naive and ignorant of the evidence at hand.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clark Kent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 March 2006 at 12:26pm

I agree that it is bad to have a situation where laws are regularly broken.

But greater enforcement is not necessarily the correct answer - sometimes changing the law is the way to go.  Speeding, for instance - the speed limit is simply out of step with reality in many places.  Instead of forcing reality into the speed limit, we should change the speed limit to reflect reality.

Similarly with illegal immigration - there is (a) a great need for low-end labor in the US, and (b) a large labor pool looking for low-end jobs.  All the walls in the world will not stop the two from connecting.  Capitalism will overcome - it always does.

I favor greater border security for drug smuggling/gang activity/terrorism/whatever purposes, but we should be realistic there are as well.  But - separate issue.

Building a wall will not keep the illegal workers out, and we don't really want it to.

If we truly wanted to stop/slow illegal immigration from Mexico, there are two things we could do - (a) make those low-end jobs go away, or (b) make the labor pool less interested.

(a) could be accomplished by making the actual hiring of illegal aliens a serious crime.  Right now, if you hire an illegal alien, the alien gets deported and you can't be Secretary of Labor.  If hiring an illegal was a felony that got you 18 months in jail, we would see some change.  Of course, we would also need a national ID database to keep track, since many illegals have fake papers that allow employers to look the other way.  But this would quickly dry up the job availability, making it less attractive to come here.

(b) could be accomplished by helping the Mexican economy, Marshall-Plan style.  If things were better in Mexico, people would have less reason to come here.  This would also help with gang crime, drug concerns, and a bunch of other things.  Are we ready and willing to invest a couple of billion in Mexican infrastructure?

And, of course, it comes back to the central issue that the US agricultural industry is relying heavily on super-low-wage illegal seasonal workers.  Without that labor pool, their cost of business would increase drastically, and the entire industry could potentially face a serious collapse.  This, of course, plays in with minimum wage issues and benefits, and other general economic issues.

Fact is - illegal immigrants are an integral part of US society and economy.  To simply throw them out and cut them off now would be a complete disaster, regardless of how illegal their presence is.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brihard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 March 2006 at 12:38pm
At least your position is informed and reasonable, Clark, I'll give you that.

I've got class this afternoon- I'll get back to this with you either tonight or tomorrow once I've had a bit more time to mull it over and do some research. This should be a fun debate.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pump Scout Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 March 2006 at 12:40pm
Personally, I'm against immigration right now. Any immigration. We have plenty of poor, tired, huddled masses already in place, we really don't need more. Once our own house is in order, then we can look at opening ourselves up to more people. Until all the LEGAL AMERICANS are covered, immigration should stop.

That's just me, though. I'm sure someone will poke holes in that thought.

Quick edit - there are a number of financial institutions who have brought out programs that specifically target the illegal immigrants for home loans. They get a far better interest rate than a legal American citizen. The qualification standards are far lower. I'm told by contacts in the mortgage industry that not only is this legal, but it's a great opportunity for lenders to open up a whole new market. Meanwhile, we have how many citizens who can't get houses of their own? It's crap, plain and simple. And in my eye, it's discrimination against people who happen to be born here, and live here legally.

Edited by Pump Scout - 28 March 2006 at 12:42pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote merc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 March 2006 at 12:42pm
if putting that much money into mexico to get them to be better why not just buy a big chunk of it?

that would improve a big chunk because we buy it and its not mexico anymore and the money they get to fix up their own country...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PAINTBALL1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 March 2006 at 1:35pm
Im not going to say much, but, a politician (Forgive me, his names escapes me). Wants to make it a felony for a illegal imiigrant to be in this country, and if caught would have to serve a minimum sentence of 1 year. I agree with the first point of the felony bit, but what doesnt seem to make sense is putting them in prison. Our prisons are vastly over populated, and are costing us millions and probaly billions a year. And so we want to flood our prisons more? Doesnt make sense to me, maybe i need to do more research on his proposal.

Edited by PAINTBALL1 - 28 March 2006 at 1:37pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clark Kent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 March 2006 at 1:42pm

Originally posted by PAINTBALL1 PAINTBALL1 wrote:

... but what doesnt seem to make sense is putting them in prison. Our prisons are vastly over populated, and are costing us millions and probaly billions a year. And so we want to flood our prisons more? Doesnt make sense to me, maybe i need to do more research on his proposal.

I agree - that is a dumb idea.  And, of course, many of these people are poor enough that a year in prison with regular meals would be like a vacation.

This just shows that some people have no understanding of the underlying issues here.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DBibeau855 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 March 2006 at 2:29pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mbro Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 March 2006 at 2:31pm
Originally posted by Pump Scout Pump Scout wrote:

Personally, I'm against immigration right now. Any immigration. We have plenty of poor, tired, huddled masses already in place, we really don't need more. Once our own house is in order, then we can look at opening ourselves up to more people. Until all the LEGAL AMERICANS are covered, immigration should stop.
Same argument that has been used throughout american history. Just change the time period and the ethnic group.

God damn Mexikans stealing our jobs.
God damn Jews stealing our jobs.
God damn Irish stealing our jobs.
God damn Poles stealing our jobs.
God damn Swedes stealing our jobs.
God damn Italians stealing our jobs.
God damn Germans stealing our jobs.

Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote procarbinefreak Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 March 2006 at 2:41pm
but if there weren't illegal immigrants who would wash our dishes and pick our fruit!?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rambino Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 March 2006 at 3:06pm

Originally posted by Pump Scout Pump Scout wrote:


Quick edit - there are a number of financial institutions who have brought out programs that specifically target the illegal immigrants for home loans. They get a far better interest rate than a legal American citizen. The qualification standards are far lower. I'm told by contacts in the mortgage industry that not only is this legal, but it's a great opportunity for lenders to open up a whole new market. Meanwhile, we have how many citizens who can't get houses of their own? It's crap, plain and simple. And in my eye, it's discrimination against people who happen to be born here, and live here legally.

This doesn't sound right - I would love to hear more details.  Mortgages are heavily regulated at the state and federal level, and the marketplace provides additional restrictions - most banks won't issue a mortgage to somebody without at least a greencard, legally here or not.  Rate discrimination is generally illegal, and it makes no sense in this context.

The only thing I can think of would be CRA mandates (community reinvestment act), which require a certain amount of loans made to low-income communities, but that has nothing to do with immigration status.  FHA loans/guaranties are also available, but again based on income not immigration status.

I am a tad skeptical about this without additional information.

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