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Proud to be an American.....

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DBibeau855 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DBibeau855 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 February 2006 at 9:37pm
Yep. They knew the policy going in to the military, they disreguarded them.
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brihard View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brihard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 February 2006 at 10:00pm
Originally posted by DBibeau855 DBibeau855 wrote:

Yep. They knew the policy going in to the military, they disreguarded them.


That's essentially it. Rule one in the military, regardless of your offense, is 'don't get caught'.

I will maintain that the problems with bigotry in the military stem from society as a whole, not from and code of conduct. When the civilian population begins to honestly accept homosexuals, the military will come around. Canada is a prime example of this.
"Abortion is not "choice" in America. It is forced and the democrats are behind it, with the goal of eugenics at its foundation."

-FreeEnterprise, 21 April 2011.

Yup, he actually said that.
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Hades View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hades Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 February 2006 at 10:11pm
Goodsmitty: I am suggesting that the code of ethics soldiers are being forced to adhere to is in itself wrong.

So what if a soldier participates in sodomy on his/her own time? I fail to see why the practise is against the moral codes in the first place.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote darkSIDEofMOON Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 February 2006 at 12:02am

Originally posted by Jack Carver Jack Carver wrote:

What percent of the population is g.ay?
I have no idea, but I'd bet a cool million that it's less than the percent that is black.
That already makes blacks more accepted since there are more of them.

Then, what is different b/t blacks and whites...?
Well there's skin color, culture, maybe physical build, by a little, other things.

The difference between g.ays and straights though is a lot bigger than that. Being **edited** is unnatural. Natural--like nature. Where males and females have sex to reproduce. Sexuality is something that goes a lot deeper than skin color, and I realize you don't see it like I do, but it's a big gap.

And because of that, the gap is going to be closed even slower than that of race.
And lets look at the race gap. Hmm... what is it? like 2006 or something and there's still racism everywhere you look.

It's not as simple as "getting the rest of the army to accept g.ays".
I think it's unrealistic to think things will get better any time soon.
Till then..... move to Europe.

 

dumbass.  last time i checked a g.ay person has all the organs i have.  bleeds the same color blood i do.  has the same bone, brain, cardiovascular, etc. structures just like me.  this is the same argument that made blacks "inferior" during the slave trade days, back when native americans were "savages."  you, have yet to see that each person is a freaking human.  NO matter the fact if they are homo or hetero. 

it is people like YOU, why there is racism.  just accept the fact that they live amongst us, and get on with your life. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DBibeau855 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 February 2006 at 12:24am
Originally posted by brihard brihard wrote:


Originally posted by DBibeau855 DBibeau855 wrote:

Yep. They knew the policy going in to the military, they disreguarded them.
That's essentially it. Rule one in the military, regardless of your offense, is 'don't get caught'.I will maintain that the problems with bigotry in the military stem from society as a whole, not from and code of conduct. When the civilian population begins to honestly accept homosexuals, the military will come around. Canada is a prime example of this.


.. No. Rule one of the military is follow orders.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brihard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 February 2006 at 12:35am
Nope. That's rule two after don't get caught. You can disobey orders if you don't get caught.

I certainly don't advocate it, but it's dumb to think it doesn't happen.
"Abortion is not "choice" in America. It is forced and the democrats are behind it, with the goal of eugenics at its foundation."

-FreeEnterprise, 21 April 2011.

Yup, he actually said that.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DBibeau855 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 February 2006 at 12:37am
If you were in the armed forces, i can tell you werent an officer.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brihard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 February 2006 at 12:20pm
I am in the forces, and no I'm not yet an officer- that's many years down the road, after I'm finished university and after I've been overseas as an NCO. It's dumb to assume that the troops are anything other than waht we normally are- a bunch of young guys prone to stupidity, who on average gnerally get away with whatever minor indiscretions we think will amuse us on a give night. A good officer remembers that his or her troops are human, and takes that into consideration, for better or worse.

Certainly the system of military justice is there for a reason, and I don't advocate rule breaking, but one has to acknowledge that it does happen. Anyone who doesn't isn't in touch with reality. Obviously offences must be punished when the offender is caught, of course- discipline rides on that. Good leadership, though, will inspire the troops to do their job and follow the rules without having to resort to punishment to enforce it.
"Abortion is not "choice" in America. It is forced and the democrats are behind it, with the goal of eugenics at its foundation."

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote goodsmitty Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 February 2006 at 12:20pm

Originally posted by Hades Hades wrote:

Goodsmitty: I am suggesting that the code of ethics soldiers are being forced to adhere to is in itself wrong.

So what if a soldier participates in sodomy on his/her own time? I fail to see why the practise is against the moral codes in the first place.

The codes of conduct apply to a soldier 24-7. You cannot grow a beard on leave (and get caught), grow your hair long on leave (and get caught), or do anything that casts a negative light on the military or its leadership. I know it sucks, but that is the way it is. That is the reason why I am such a staunch and outspoken critic of the war and Der Bush's policies-because the soldiers cannot be.

If you believe that a soldier's orientation is none of uncle sam's business, then that is your right. However, at this point in time what the soldiers did was wrong, knew it was wrong, and need to be disciplined. They cast a negative image on the service with a military-themed sex show for everybody to watch on the internet. What gender they performed their stunts with is irrelevant.

I can tell you from experience of leading 25 soldiers in a very high operational-tempo unit that you cannot tolerate disobedience. Soldiers cannot be allowed to pick and choose the rules they abide by in the garrison, and then be expected to follow an order on the field that goes against all sane reckoning. Imagine if it were you who were laying a puddle of blood waiting for someone to pull you out of a hail of gunfire. Would you want a bunch of free-thinking new-age radicals at your rescue, or highly-disciplined (mostly homophobic) robots that will answer your call, despite their own danger? I choose robot.

Now, don't turn this into a "g.ays in the military" thread. I know they have served honorably, but that isn't the issue. The rules are the rules, they broke them knowingly and deserve to be punished.

P.S. don't construe this as me agreeing with everything Dibi says. This is the first time we have ever agreed on anything



Edited by goodsmitty - 28 February 2006 at 12:22pm
"Reading this thread, I'm sad to say that the only difference between the average American and the average Taliban is economic status."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brihard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 February 2006 at 12:33pm
Smitty, if you're willing to satisfy my curiosity, what is(was?) your rank and military background? You certainly seem to know your stuff.
"Abortion is not "choice" in America. It is forced and the democrats are behind it, with the goal of eugenics at its foundation."

-FreeEnterprise, 21 April 2011.

Yup, he actually said that.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote choopie911 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 February 2006 at 12:33pm
Originally posted by GThomas GThomas wrote:


Originally posted by Boss_DJ Boss_DJ wrote:


<p style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">


<p style="color: rgb(0, 102, 0);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">The other men are accused of underage drinking, drunken driving and adultery."</span>

<div style="text-align: left;">Underage drinking? What a joke. Getting drunk is what every single GI does in his/her spare time, and everyone knows it. I have been to many military bases and we would drink right infront of MPs and officers and they don't care as long as your not causing trouble. Go to any bar or club down south and show them a military ID and you will get in regardless of how old you are.




No kidding, if you're old enough to kill someone, you're deffinitly old enough to have a drink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brihard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 February 2006 at 12:38pm
Originally posted by choopie911 choopie911 wrote:

Originally posted by GThomas GThomas wrote:


Originally posted by Boss_DJ Boss_DJ wrote:


<p style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">


<p style="color: rgb(0, 102, 0);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">The other men are accused of underage drinking, drunken driving and adultery."</span>

<div style="text-align: left;">Underage drinking? What a joke. Getting drunk is what every single GI does in his/her spare time, and everyone knows it. I have been to many military bases and we would drink right infront of MPs and officers and they don't care as long as your not causing trouble. Go to any bar or club down south and show them a military ID and you will get in regardless of how old you are.




No kidding, if you're old enough to kill someone, you're deffinitly old enough to have a drink


Chewp, there's a reserve unit somewhere in my brigade where their CO is apparently an enforcement officer with the liquor control board of Ontario in civilian life. Their junior ranks mess is apparently one of the exceptions to the norm you mentioned. My old unit down in Kingston used to ID too; they wouldn't let some of us drink underage there either. Most units aren't that way, but there are a few.

That being said, I recall drinking in a bar in downtown Ottawa once after orientation week at the start of the year, before I turned legal. I figured I'd show the military ID, which normally works, but the guy IDing immediately turned it over and looked at the age, which is extremely hard to find and read on the military ID card I have. He grinned at me, asked which unit I was, then when I told him said, "Good stuff" and explained he was from a unit in a town fourty minutes form mine. After inquiring about mutual buddies in each others' units, he let me in.

It's a crapshoot, generally. Some places will let you in, some won't. Particualrly here in Ottawa though, with Hull across the border, a lot of places jsut don't care about the extra year as long as you're 18.
"Abortion is not "choice" in America. It is forced and the democrats are behind it, with the goal of eugenics at its foundation."

-FreeEnterprise, 21 April 2011.

Yup, he actually said that.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote goodsmitty Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 February 2006 at 4:52pm

Originally posted by brihard brihard wrote:

Smitty, if you're willing to satisfy my curiosity, what is(was?) your rank and military background? You certainly seem to know your stuff.

I was an active duty Army Captain (chemical corps) from 95 to 04. I was a company executive officer twice and platoon leader in the 12th Chemical Company and 11th Aviation Regt.

"Reading this thread, I'm sad to say that the only difference between the average American and the average Taliban is economic status."
-Zesty

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