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Poll Question: Is there a form of sniping in woodsball?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote diedonimpact Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 January 2006 at 12:42pm
they should sticky this
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote diedonimpact Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 January 2006 at 12:48pm
and yes ther is a form of sniping in woodsball its called CAMPING and waiting for someone to come...that is sniping...thats what sniping is. i know people that do that. hey some games i do that. lol im sure half these anti-sniper ppl do it sometimes too. they just dont realize they are doing it so ppl stop being anti-sniper. please its getting annoying
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rednekk98 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 January 2006 at 5:17pm
So far Mack has fielded about the best arguement in support I have seen on this forum. However, even you can admit that that is a difficult scenario to repeat on a regular basis, and that the "sniper" in your example would almost instantly lose his advantage if any of the players he targeted had a flatline of their own.

Knight of Fire's post unfortunatly fails to show how the playing style differs from the average paintball player. It shows how to set up a defensive perimeter and an ambush, two basic skills of a woodsball player.

Omega, while I give you lot of credit for being mature about it, that was basically the old "You'll bleive when I snip0z u in da face f00l!" post. I've been playing for as long as you have, and even tried the sniper thing early on, before I was enlightened. My playing style often involves the use of limited paint, so stealth, accuracy, and above all, shooting smart are necassary to get eliminations. Especially when I play with a pump gun. So don't think I'm always rushing around right in the front of things dumping paint and trying to bunker people. But I know when that's the best tactic and don't hesitate to do it. I practice often, know the effective range of my marker, and don't take shots outside of that range unless I have a darn good reason to. I've had my share of good shots during game, even the 30+ yard stuff. However I almost always play with the team, and know I'm essentially useless without them, and above all I don't call myself a sniper. Because I understand that basic marksmanship and use of stealth is not special, and it's not a skill the average woodsballer doesn't have.

The point is, why handicap yourself by not playing with the team, practicing a tactic that has very limited, if every any effectiveness? Use stealth when that's the best way to do things, but when the time comes and every gun is needed to push the opposition out of a base or off a hill, don't be so full of yourself that you won't help because you might not get your ego boost from shooting from hiding in a one-man ambush. Loose the ghille suit so you can move without getting tangled, overheated, or weighted down, don't be afraid to be visible, because if you move right, shoot right, and use cover right it doesn't matter.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ROOST Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 January 2006 at 5:33pm

at d-day there are people who all they do is snipe.so iono i myself think that if you have a scope on your gun you are sitting in one place to long and will surely be shot.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ANARCHY_SCOUT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 January 2006 at 6:34pm
Its called ambush where you sit still in a concealed location and wait for someone to walk by and then pop out and shoot them. There is no snipers  what so ever though the guns all have the same range.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sneaky_sniper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 January 2006 at 6:46pm
Originally posted by ANARCHY_SCOUT ANARCHY_SCOUT wrote:

Its called ambush where you sit still in a concealed location and wait for someone to walk by and then pop out and shoot them. There is no snipers  what so ever though the guns all have the same range.
other then them jumping out, thats kinda my view on it
[IMG]http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c128/sneaky_sniper/Invader_Zim.jpg">
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote A-5 Command Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 January 2006 at 8:25pm

is their a way to cheat the poles?

Because how the hell did over 4,000 people vote when this thread has been up for less than a week?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rednekk98 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 January 2006 at 9:32pm
If you click the little box allowing multiple votes, people can vote as much as they want. Apperantly the person who started this thread couldn't figure out how to make a poll, so people rape his statistics to teach him not to screw up next time.

Why they even have an option for multiple votes, I have no clue.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 January 2006 at 10:25pm
Originally posted by rednekk98 rednekk98 wrote:

So far Mack has fielded about the best arguement in support I have seen on this forum.

Thank you.

However, even you can admit that that is a difficult scenario to repeat
on a regular basis

Yes it is; that's why I consider paintball snipers to be very rare and find most of the "OMG Ima 1337 sniperz" crowd to be very amusing.

the "sniper" in your example would almost instantly lose his advantage if any of the players he targeted had a flatline of their own.

Agreed, but consider the following points:
  • The flatline was, as you noted, just an example.  I play with a guy who is a master of using the thicker growth on our field.  He regularly gets one shot eliminations on opponents (including me way to often ) by stalking ahead of his target, locating a small  opening he can fire through, and using it to ambush/snipe his victim.  He then can withdraw with impunity because once he steps clear of his "firing lane" he is impossible to shoot, manuever on, or in some cases (because we have some thick stuff we play in) even locate.
  • Secondly, even real snipers eventually run into an opponent who can "reach out and touch them" right back.
    • This could be a counter-sniper.
    • It could be a .50 putting suppressive fire in their area.
    • Or it could be a napalm strike/artillery fire on the top of the hill they're hiding on

Knight of Fire's post unfortunatly fails to show how the playing style differs from the average paintball player. It shows how to set up a defensive perimeter and an ambush, two basic skills of a woodsball player.

Omega, while I give you lot of credit for being mature about it, that was basically the old "You'll bleive when I snip0z u in da face f00l!" post. I've been playing for as long as you have, and even tried the sniper thing early on, before I was enlightened. My playing style often involves the use of limited paint, so stealth, accuracy, and above all, shooting smart are necassary to get eliminations. Especially when I play with a pump gun. So don't think I'm always rushing around right in the front of things dumping paint and trying to bunker people. But I know when that's the best tactic and don't hesitate to do it. I practice often, know the effective range of my marker, and don't take shots outside of that range unless I have a darn good reason to. I've had my share of good shots during game, even the 30+ yard stuff. However I almost always play with the team, and know I'm essentially useless without them, and above all I don't call myself a sniper. Because I understand that basic marksmanship and use of stealth is not special, and it's not a skill the average woodsballer doesn't have.

I'm afraid I have to disagree with you on that last statement.  The fact is some people are just much better at marksmanship and woodcraft than others just like some people can walk a trigger much faster than others.  I, unfortunately, am not one of those people; my shooting is average, I can move fairly quietly in the woods if I'm not trying to move fast, and my trigger speed (or lack thereof) is embarrassing.  But my point is that I know some folks who are phenomonal shots with their markers and I know some that aren't.

The point is, why handicap yourself by not playing with the team, practicing a tactic that has very limited, if every any effectiveness?

Some people just enjoy playing that way, and no, I'm not one of them.

 Use stealth when that's the best way to do things, but when the time comes and every gun is needed to push the opposition out of a base or off a hill, don't be so full of yourself that you won't help because you might not get your ego boost from shooting from hiding in a one-man ambush.

Good advice.  I get so annoyed at this one guy I play with that likes to work the flanks all the time.  He doesn't snipe, so much as try to sneak in close and ambush, but he plays his game only and never changes what he's doing even when it would help the team.  I've seen team mates eliminated, been eliminated, and watched the flag leave the field in the grubby paws of our opponents all because he didn't want to support the rest of us.

Loose the ghille suit so you can move without getting tangled, overheated, or weighted down,

Excellent advice, ghillies are useless and cause problems in paintball:
  • I've seen heated arguments caused because of ghillies that are so bushy they essentially make the wearer "bullet-proof".
  • I've also eliminated a ghille wearer because the suit interfered with his visual range both by limiting movement and covering his goggle lense.  (It was funny, he took like 15 minutes to creep up to my position where I was guarding the rear approach to the flag station and didn't have a clue I was there until I laid my barrel on his shoulder and asked if he wanted to surrender or get shot.  He chose surrender.  If your wondering, I was wearing a set of European pattern Renagades and some home made goggleflage.  I was just tucked in tight to a big bush and he came right to me.)
don't be afraid to be visible, because if you move right, shoot right, and use cover right it doesn't matter.

Have to disagree a bit there also.  Moving/shooting/covering right is all very important, but I still prefer not to be seen also.  It probably has something to do with being old and slow with bad knees/back.  It works to my advantage though.  Quite a few of the people I know refuse to rush me because they know that I refuse to run (or move fast in any other way) most of the time.  Whatever the odds, if an escape route isn't readily available, I usually just dig in and see how many I can take out before I'm eliminated. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote You Wont See Me Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 January 2006 at 10:40pm
It depends on what your definition of a paintball sniper is.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mr. Spiffy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 January 2006 at 11:31am
I want to see some vids... lets see this "sniping" in action.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sureshot3091. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 January 2006 at 1:15pm
Originally posted by sneaky_sniper sneaky_sniper wrote:

im thinken sombody is gunna get stabbed in this..., i believe in a certain form of the "sniper" in paintball but i dont wanna get into this argument, sooo ya...



Of course you do, your name is "sneaky_sniper"!


Edited by Sureshot3091.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rednekk98 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 January 2006 at 3:37pm
Mack, for some odd reason I can't seem to post in different colors without copying/pasting a lot of code, so I'll just do the best I can responding in order.

First, you're welcome.

Second, that's just one useful tactic while playing in brush, still, I fail to see how it differs from an ambush. Not to say it isn't a great tactic, I've been on both ends of this in the thick stuff, most notably at a winter scenario game in upstate new york with one of the moderators here. We had a mission to carry cargo (big akward plastic crates) deep behind enemy lines to a drop off point in very thick brush. The opposing team held the brush, and we held a series of berms on the high open ground, but to get points to win, they had to get to us, or we had to get to them. This was an old farm field that had been allowed to grow up thick, but had paths throughout it that had been kept open by mowing, and every once in a while there was a deer path that was open. It was ambush alley getting to the dump off point, and they best way to do that was to take a minimum number of people to avoid being easily noticed. We ran a decent risk of getting ambushed on the way there(we only made it two or three times before they got wise to us, but by that time we just needed to defend and hold onto the points) I still don't consider it sniping, just an ambush, and a good one at that. Considering we HAD to cross and if they were careful they had a slim chance of getting hit. The added benifit was when we made the drop-off, it was so far in the back of the field and there were such fixed battle lines at the edge of the brush, that we could cruise around picking people off without alerting anyone. Then when we were low on paint, take out anywhere from five to a dozen players on the line, then make a mad rush across no-man's land to get back to the base and respawn point, usually taking fire from both sides.
Me standing up to fire at opposition through a hole in brush during mentioned game

Finding lanes in brush and using them for ambush purposes still does not appear sufficiently different from standard tactics for it to be considered "sniping".

As for the marksmanship ability of paintball players, I guess you could be right. But it still SHOULD be a basic skill. I often see people just whip their marker up and start hosing, or even shoot from nothing close to having good form, even when they have all the time in the world to adjust their body a bit to at least get their natural point of aim. People assuming that paintball guns are so wildly inaccurate that they might as well just point it in close to the right direction and start cranking out balls as fast as possible usually don't have much of a chance at hitting someone. However I still think that there are enough players with enough hand-eye coordination to keep marksmanship from being an uncommon skill. It's just that I think a lot of those other people just aren't trying to make hits and trying to acheive area suppression and possible the odd elimination. Good old fashion spray-n-pray. Again with the woodscraft, yeah, you see some people who look like they're actually trying, but are obviously bad at it, but most of the time we're talking about people wearing brightly colored jersies or people who well, aren't trying. I'd say the majority of people who actually try to be stealthy(not the idiots who stick some leaves on their mask and wear a mop and sit in a patch of sunshine thinking they're invisible)do a good enough job at it to get by, with very few being better than that. However, even the ones who do show advanced skills in this department usually aren't terribly more effective forces on the field. Maybe they'll get a bit closer before being spotted and be able to get an extra elimination or two, but it's rarely if ever, wiping out a squad single handedly with balls from nowhere. Like low crawling close enough to these guys to have chance(Photo from scenario game) It's possible to be a beeter than average marksman and be better than average at fieldcraft, but I've yet to find anyone who's so much better at it, that they're in an entirely different class than the rest of the woodsballers.


Mack, I'm not saying not being seen is not necassary at all, but in some instances controlling the field is more important than remaining unseen. I'm just trying to encourage people not to be darn timid. If you can't move fast, I guess that can change when it is a good idea to be low-profile.

Now I know when why when we clear out a village or nest of bunkers it's always the insane older guys who are left to be rooted out. I figured the younger guys just voted to sacrifice you to slow down are persuit.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 January 2006 at 6:53pm
Originally posted by rednekk98 rednekk98 wrote:

Mack, for some odd reason I can't seem to post in different colors without copying/pasting a lot of code

That's odd.

Second, that's just one useful tactic while playing in brush, still, I fail to see how it differs from an ambush.

I differentiate whether it is sniping or an ambush based on the actual employment of the tactic.  The main factors for me are the amount of paint fired, whether the individual withdraws after the elimination or stays, and if they run back to the rest of their team or continue to stalk and eliminate opponents on their own.  Other factors are if they planned their egress route or chose their cover to hinder any potential counter deployments.  Range of the engagement is also a consideration, scaled down to paintball standards of course.  They're not hard and fast rules so much as an impression gained by watching the action occur.  For instance, if I were to shoot you through a firing lane, but you were just on the opposite side of the vegitation in question, that wouldn't be sniping because it would be at a range even I couldn't miss at.

As for the marksmanship ability of paintball players, I guess you could be right. But it still SHOULD be a basic skill. I often see people just whip their marker up and start hosing, or even shoot from nothing close to having good form, even when they have all the time in the world to adjust their body a bit to at least get their natural point of aim.

Yes, it should be, but it seems that more and more people are joining the accuracy through volume crowd.

It's possible to be a beeter than average marksman and be better than average at fieldcraft, but I've yet to find anyone who's so much better at it, that they're in an entirely different class than the rest of the woodsballers.

That's probably part of our difference of opinion.  I have met a few of those "different class" folks.  Only one played paintball though, the other was a friend of mine who once demonstrated his woodcraft to several of us by getting close enough to a white tail doe to touch it when we were hiking in the Black Hills.


Mack, I'm not saying not being seen is not necassary at all, but in some instances controlling the field is more important than remaining unseen. I'm just trying to encourage people not to be darn timid. If you can't move fast, I guess that can change when it is a good idea to be low-profile.

Timid people annoy me on the field.  Good luck on getting that to change.  I haven't been able yet to get many new players to listen and move about.  But I've seen a lot hide and die in place.

Now I know when why when we clear out a village or nest of bunkers it's always the insane older guys who are left to be rooted out. I figured the younger guys just voted to sacrifice you to slow down are persuit.

Nope, we just figure getting lit up is less painful than running.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote p-ball sNiPeR Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 January 2006 at 7:59pm

ok ppl, this is the new player forum, where we help new pballers W/ their questions and problems.  It's obvious that different ppl have different opinions about snipers in paintball, but lets calm down because if you think about it, you can't change other peoples opinions. So lets not argue about this. The majority of the ppl that were in this poll don't believe in snipers, but 941 ppl (unless someone voted more than once which is allowed in this poll) do believe in snipers. So since we can't change their mind lets forget about snipers.  When a new mamber makes a comment with the word "sniper" in it, just show them a link like this:  

http://www.tippmann.com/forum/wwf77a/forum_posts.asp?TID=147 377&PN=1

 

The 2nd guideline at tippmann forum is to respect your fellow forum members  

 http://www.tippmann.com/forum/

so please do.

 



Edited by p-ball sNiPeR
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote A-5 Command Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 January 2006 at 2:00pm

I agree^

And no way are ghillie suits useless in paintball man, i dont know who you have been plying with, but a player patient enough whearing a gillie suit is virtually invisable, i know the same is true with a lot of other camo too, but with a ghillie the player needs less natural cover around him or her to camouflage themselves, leaving them with a much more open shot.

Just like a marker, they would need to know how to use it to their best advantage, but they are far from useless. And have you ever heard of the action ghillie systems from spec ops? Doesn't get in your eyesight at all.

Great post btw, just disagree with that one statement you made.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 January 2006 at 7:12pm
Originally posted by A-5 Command A-5 Command wrote:

I agree^

And no way are ghillie suits useless in paintball man, i dont know who you have been plying with, but a player patient enough whearing a gillie suit is virtually invisable, i know the same is true with a lot of other camo too, but with a ghillie the player needs less natural cover around him or her to camouflage themselves, leaving them with a much more open shot.

Just like a marker, they would need to know how to use it to their best advantage, but they are far from useless. And have you ever heard of the action ghillie systems from spec ops? Doesn't get in your eyesight at all.

Great post btw, just disagree with that one statement you made.



We'll just agree to disagree then.  Your point about knowing how to use a tool like a ghillie correctly is accurate.  The folks I've seen use them either don't have the patience to remain completely motionless, try to hide in plain site ("hey, where did that shrubbery come from?"), or play a way to offensive game while using them.  The biggest disadvantage I see to ghillies in paintball is related to the markers.  Being stationary in one place with the limited range provided by markers can really limit available targets (at least at the field I play on which encompasses over 100 acres of varied terrain), which is probably why the ghillie guys get impatient and move around.


Edited by Mack
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PaintballAlex Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 January 2006 at 7:26pm
Too much to read, but yes there are snipers in woodsball. Take it from a scenario player on a scenario team, there is alot of use for snipers. Mostly ambush snipers. Go to specialopspaintball.com and read their outline of an ambush sniper, because they have it listed as a position, and have even modle'd guns for the part.

Edited by PaintballAlex
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 January 2006 at 8:02pm
Originally posted by PaintballAlex PaintballAlex wrote:

Too much to read,

Yes, let's not confuse ourselves with the facts/arguments that have been previously postulated.

but yes there are snipers in woodsball.

Spoken by a man who has obviously done his homework on this topic

Take it from a scenario player on a scenario team, there is alot of use for snipers. Mostly ambush snipers.

Hmm, "Ambush Snipers". . . I wonder how that differs from a normal stay-out-of-sight-and-surprise-your-opponents ambush?

Go to specialopspaintball.com and read their outline of an ambush sniper, because they have it listed as a position,

If it's on specialopspaintball.com it must be true!

and have even modle'd guns for the part.

No way specops would take this position just to sell their products.


Edited by Mack
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PaintballAlex Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 January 2006 at 8:32pm

Originally posted by Mack Mack wrote:

Originally posted by PaintballAlex PaintballAlex wrote:

Too much to read,

Yes, let's not confuse ourselves with the facts/arguments that have been previously postulated.

but yes there are snipers in woodsball.

Spoken by a man who has obviously done his homework on this topic

Take it from a scenario player on a scenario team, there is alot of use for snipers. Mostly ambush snipers.

Hmm, "Ambush Snipers". . . I wonder how that differs from a normal stay-out-of-sight-and-surprise-your-opponents ambush?

Go to specialopspaintball.com and read their outline of an ambush sniper, because they have it listed as a position,

If it's on specialopspaintball.com it must be true!

and have even modle'd guns for the part.

No way specops would take this position just to sell their products.

U dont have to be a jerk,  i'm just stating an opinion, and said that specops has a nice detailed review about the sniper to anyone who wants to read it. So dont diss what i say newb! And the sniper on my team has literaly gone into the field against 10walk-on players and has won the game in under 20min. They do exist if u know how to use them.

And actually i was a sniper, but now play heavy riflemen on my "Sponsored" kick butt scenario team, so i would probably know more than u. So yeah i did my homework.



Edited by PaintballAlex
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