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Clark Kent View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clark Kent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 November 2005 at 6:44pm

The Federal Reserve is a government agency.

The wall of separation was formalized by the Supreme Court, which IS law, very much so.  The Supreme Court could overrule themselves, but that is VERY rare, and will not happen in this case.  It is not simply a matter of a single case - the wall of separation is one of the most solidly established constitutional principles around.

And while Jefferson did mention the wall of separation in a Federalist Paper, it was also mentioned in the Treaty of Tripoli, by John Adams, I believe.  As always, relevant information on this can be found in Wikipedia.  But never doubt that the wall of separation is absolute law in this country, as much as any law is ever absolute.  Whether the Court will decide that money violates the wall is an open question, but the wall is definitely there.

As to who is affected by money - as always, ask youself how you would feel it it said "In Allah We Trust" or "In Flying Spaghetti Monster We Trust".  If that would make you feel insulted, belittled, reduced, offended, marginalized, or whatever, then this passes the initial test.

The FACT is that people care, whether you think they should care or not.  I, for instance, am frankly embarassed to be associated with the money.  Whenever I have visitors from other places they giggle at our cash, because it is so idiotic to have that statement on there.  In my case it has nothing to do with my religious beliefs, but everything to do with my political and intellectual views.  This isn't just about the evilzorz atheists.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Frank Zappa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 November 2005 at 7:07pm
Originally posted by DBibeau855 DBibeau855 wrote:

Originally posted by Frank Zappa Frank Zappa wrote:

Isn't the Federal Reserve a private thing?

And does anyone else find it funny that the guy was whining about something that affected him in no way whatsoever?


What just like abortion?


Does saying the pledge affect someones life?

I meant that about his daughter not caring about the pledge. He's the one who complained, she didn't care.
It's all a conspiracy.

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Hades View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hades Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 November 2005 at 7:16pm
Originally posted by Clark Kent Clark Kent wrote:

As to who is affected by money - as always, ask youself how you would feel it it said "In Allah We Trust" or "In Flying Spaghetti Monster We Trust". If that would make you feel insulted, belittled, reduced, offended, marginalized, or whatever, then this passes the initial test.


I like to use the example in Satan we trust because many will say that Allah and God are the same.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gatyr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 November 2005 at 7:34pm
So no one else thinks that Novus Ordo Seclorum or Annuit Coeptis should be removed? Hades I am shocked. You for one should be trying non stop to get these phrases off of the dollar. 
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Clark Kent View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clark Kent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 November 2005 at 7:43pm

Well, both of those mottos are arguably secular - or at least not entirely obviously religious, which makes for a much harder case...

(Not to mention, of course, that most people aren't offended by them because they can't read Latin)

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Hades View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hades Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 November 2005 at 7:47pm
Why would this offend me?

"Novus ordo seclorum" was not intended to mean (nor does it correctly translate into) "new world order." Seclorum is plural (new worlds order?). And Thomson said the motto refers to the new American era beginning in 1776. Also, "new world order" is originally an English phrase whose Latin translation would not be "novus ordo seclorum."

As for, "Annuit Cúptis," baby steps...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bluemunky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 November 2005 at 7:52pm
Originally posted by Clark Kent Clark Kent wrote:


(Not to mention, of course, that most people aren't offended by them because they can't read Latin)


That would include me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gatyr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 November 2005 at 7:58pm
It may be just me, but I would consider saying "God favors our cause"(roughy, there was a more exact translation) or..

well, it seems that the internet and my previous "knowledge" of meanigns of novus ordo seclorum have conflicting views on what it is defined as, because the web mentions nothing of god...hmm

regardless, I would consider that religious enough to offend any atheists that might care.

But, I would expect anyone idealistic enough to try and force something like that off of the dollar bill to at least want everything reffering to god off, and konw about all of the references to god.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Heres To You Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 November 2005 at 8:49pm
Well honestly, how long is it before he wants to change the National Anthem as well?

The line has to drawn at some point.
"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clark Kent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 November 2005 at 9:45pm
Is there a religious context to the national anthem?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Frank Zappa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 November 2005 at 9:47pm
Originally posted by Clark Kent Clark Kent wrote:

Is there a religious context to the national anthem?


http://www.bcpl.net/~etowner/anthem.html

Oh! thus be it ever, when freemen shall stand
Between their loved homes and the war's desolation!
Blest with victory and peace, may the heaven-rescued land
Praise the Power that hath made and preserved us a nation.
Then conquer we must, when our cause it is just,
And this be our motto: "In God is our trust."
And the star-spangled banner in triumph shall wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave!


Yes, yes there is.

Edited by Frank Zappa
It's all a conspiracy.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tae Kwon Do Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 November 2005 at 9:50pm

If they changed it, nobody would care.

Same with the money. If they just started printing money sans "In God We Trust", and didnt tell anybody, how long would it take untill people really cared.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DBibeau855 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 November 2005 at 9:53pm
People might just not notice. How many times a day do you really inspect your coinage?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Frank Zappa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 November 2005 at 9:58pm
Originally posted by DBibeau855 DBibeau855 wrote:

People might just not notice. How many times a day do you really inspect your coinage?


Obvioiusly enough to complain about the religion.
It's all a conspiracy.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clark Kent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 November 2005 at 10:03pm

Originally posted by Frank Zappa Frank Zappa wrote:

Originally posted by Clark Kent Clark Kent wrote:

Is there a religious context to the national anthem?


And this be our motto: "In God is our trust."


Yes, yes there is.

lol - I stand corrected.  And maybe that should be changed.  But given that that's the fourth verse, and most Americans don't even know that there even exists more than one verse, I'm not too worried.

:)

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hades Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 November 2005 at 10:04pm
Originally posted by DBibeau855 DBibeau855 wrote:

People might just not notice. How many times a day do you really inspect your coinage?
Daily seeing how I have to take money from people as part of my work.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tae Kwon Do Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 November 2005 at 10:05pm

Originally posted by Hades Hades wrote:

Originally posted by DBibeau855 DBibeau855 wrote:

People might just not notice. How many times a day do you really inspect your coinage?
Daily seeing how I have to take money from people as part of my work.

I take money in my work too, and I honestly cant tell you the last time I really inspected the money.

Now, I am sure you see alot bigger amounts than I do, I work at McDonalds and see alot of 5's and thats about it....


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DBibeau855 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 November 2005 at 10:07pm
The first people to notice would be bank tellers.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clark Kent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 November 2005 at 10:10pm
Or that guy at Subway who spends five minutes scrutinizing every 20 I bring in there...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DBibeau855 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 November 2005 at 10:12pm
Originally posted by Clark Kent Clark Kent wrote:

Or that guy at Subway who spends five minutes scrutinizing every 20 I bring in there...


Heh... I know that guy. Every big bill is fake.

That ever happen to you? I got cought with a fake bill at safeway. The lady looked at me and she said. "... This is a fake bill." I was dumbfounded. It was awsome.
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