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Abortion/ Goverment power debate.

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Clark Kent View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clark Kent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 November 2005 at 11:30am

Originally posted by Unicorn Unicorn wrote:

The abortion issue is black and white to both sides. It's either murdering a person who just hasn't happened to be born yet, or it's just part of the women's body until birth, or near birth anyway.

Absolutely not true.  It is is black and white to SOME people (the stupid ones) on both sides - and there are more than two sides.  To thinking people, abortion is quite complex with many degrees of variety.

Abortion is an incredibly tricky moral issue.  Simplifying it into a binary proposition does everybody a disfavor.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cadet_sergeant Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 November 2005 at 11:38am
i was hopin we'd get a lady on the subject
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Clark Kent View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clark Kent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 November 2005 at 11:44am

Take Roe v. Wade - the court didn't say "all abortion is murder" or "all fetii are part of the woman's body".  The court created a distinction based on viability, which is still basically the law today - you can get an abortion early but not late, generally speaking.

Whether you agree with the decision or not, it is pretty clear that the court did not think abortion was a simple yay-or-nay issue, and those people are pretty smart.

And this complexity is borne out in the public debate as well.  Some people think in-vitro fertilization amounts to abortion; others do not.  Some people support abortion rights while opposing abortion itself.  Some people support late-term abortion rights, others only support day-after pills.

Whether something (a fetus) is a moral object is not binary.  There are degrees of moral objects.  The folks who think that the debate swings on whether a fetus is a "person" or not are missing the boat.  Some moral objects are given greater moral value than others.

It's just really really complicated.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote amishman89 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 November 2005 at 5:00pm

  

I can understand if a woman was raped. And was proven raped to then have the morning after pill. That would be the only cause of this. everyone here makes a good point of arguement.

Only Hugh can prevent florist friars.
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Clark Kent View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clark Kent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 November 2005 at 5:06pm

Why allow an exception for rape?  I never understood that.

If the reason that abortion is bad is because the fetus is a person, isn't a rape-fetus just as much of a person as a one-night-stand-fetus?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tae Kwon Do Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 November 2005 at 5:16pm
Originally posted by Clark Kent Clark Kent wrote:

Why allow an exception for rape?  I never understood that.

If the reason that abortion is bad is because the fetus is a person, isn't a rape-fetus just as much of a person as a one-night-stand-fetus?

What about Back-of-a-'92-Dodge-Spirit-after-one-too-many-Natural-Lights -fetus?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DBibeau855 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 November 2005 at 5:21pm
Originally posted by Dazed Dazed wrote:

Wait, doesn't a minor have to have parental consent to have any other type of invasive proceedure, or any medical proceedure for that matter, done? Why is abortion considered different than, say, my mom having to sign consent papers for a knee surgery when I was 17. The doctors wouldn't begin the operation until at least one of my parents were there.

I'm not going to arue the morality of abortion, or my personal opinion of governmental interference, but that question sticks in my head when this particular part of this issue is approached.


Shes a minor, every detail of her life should be decided by her guardians. Once she is 18, all bets are off.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DBibeau855 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 November 2005 at 5:24pm
Originally posted by Clark Kent Clark Kent wrote:

Why allow an exception for rape? I never understood that.


If the reason that abortion is bad is because the fetus is a person, isn't a rape-fetus just as much of a person as a one-night-stand-fetus?



I think the reasoning behind a "rape fetus" being allowed to get flushed is that it isnt the "womans fault" the woman isnt using abortion as a form of "contraception" that reasoning is really.... really... sexist.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hades Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 November 2005 at 5:37pm
Originally posted by DBibeau855 DBibeau855 wrote:

Shes a minor, every detail of her life should be decided by her guardians. Once she is 18, all bets are off.


Right because Step Daddy that rapes little Susie on a daily basis should get to decide if little Susie should abort fetus or not....

Good call there!

Who says it it the parents right to to choose it there child has sex or have an abortion before 18 or not? I know my parents didnt make that choice for me.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DBibeau855 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 November 2005 at 5:40pm
Its a medical operation and can be hazerdous to the persons health, it causes bleeding, scarring and can cause infertility. It is a medical procedure.

The girl is a minor. She should have to have the concent of her parents. End of story.

As a minor, a child cant even get her ears peirced without the concent of her parents, why in the heck should she be able to have an abortion?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hades Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 November 2005 at 5:49pm
Popping zits can be hazardous to a persons health. It causes bleeding scarring, and can cause and infection that can lead to death.

Depending on how one pops their zits, I am sure it could be defined as a medical proceedure.

I dont see children asking Mommy and Daddy for they can pop the zits.

Oh, had this law passed, the parents only had to be informed of the abortion 2 days prior. The parents didnt have to give consent. So it is still the childs choice even if Mommy and Daddy know about it.

Edited by Hades

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clark Kent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 November 2005 at 5:50pm

Originally posted by DBibeau855 DBibeau855 wrote:

Its a medical operation and can be hazerdous to the persons health, it causes bleeding, scarring and can cause infertility. It is a medical procedure.

Childbirth is much more dangerous than an abortion.  Should parents have the right to FORCE their minor daughter to have an abortion against her wishes?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote amishman89 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 November 2005 at 5:51pm
   ^^^^ very correct. Rape is not the fault of the woman. And yes abortion procedure is very painful and very risky.    Why cant people use adoption as a method.
Only Hugh can prevent florist friars.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clark Kent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 November 2005 at 5:52pm

Originally posted by DBibeau855 DBibeau855 wrote:



I think the reasoning behind a "rape fetus" being allowed to get flushed is that it isnt the "womans fault" the woman isnt using abortion as a form of "contraception" that reasoning is really.... really... sexist.

I was being vaguely rhetorical - I guess I knew the reasoning, goofy as it is.  But your response highlights the internal conflict.  Half of the time abortion opponents focus on the fetus-as-person position, other times they focus on the personal-responsibility-of-parents position, despite the rather obvious conflict between the two.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hades Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 November 2005 at 5:54pm
Do you know anything about adoption?

Ever had a full term pregnancy and then give birth? It isnt a walk in the park.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Da Hui Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 November 2005 at 5:57pm
Pregnancy is no walk in the park. But Girls should be aware that if there going to have sex, they can get pregnant. Having an Abortion is just wrong. If you dont want a kid, use a condom(not foolproff but generally efective) and birth control. Or dont have sexy.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DBibeau855 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 November 2005 at 5:59pm
My sister has had 2 kids and 3 abortions that i know about. Im well aware of what is involved.

No. Parents should not be able to force an abortion on a child. But if they really dont want her to have that kid. She wont have the kid. She will go through child birth, the parents wont support the child and child services will come and carry the kid off because the girl is an unfit mother. She makes no money and blah blah blah.

The bottom line is. Children cannot get medical procedures without the concent of the guardians. An abortion shouldnt be any different.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote .Ryan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 November 2005 at 6:02pm
An abortion has a whole different set of consequences than any other medical procedure though. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hades Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 November 2005 at 6:03pm
Originally posted by Da Hui Da Hui wrote:

Pregnancy is no walk in the park. But Girls should be aware that if there going to have sex, they can get pregnant. Having an Abortion is just wrong. If you dont want a kid, use a condom(not foolproff but generally efective) and birth control. Or dont have sexy.


How many 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17 year old girls do you know that know everything about sex, contraception, and pregnancy?

Hell, I know several that are 18+ and still dont have a clue.

I best most forummers on this site dont have much of a clue either.

I had to explain to someone what a female condom once was on this site.

Experts or informed about sex and pregnancy my foot.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clark Kent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 November 2005 at 6:05pm

Originally posted by DBibeau855 DBibeau855 wrote:


No. Parents should not be able to force an abortion on a child. ...

The bottom line is. Children cannot get medical procedures without the concent of the guardians.

You don't find those positions inconsistent?  There are a lot more doctors/nurses/equipment involved in childbirth than in an abortion...  I don't see how childbirth isn't a medical procedure.

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