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brihard View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brihard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 November 2005 at 5:34pm

I don''t play stock class- often as not I find myself up against guys with speedball markers the ound like friggin' miniguns.

I'm certainly no cheater. Full auto would admittedly be a novellty, but like I said, I've been in situations where a burst would have been useful. Generally when I play at a recball field there are buildings and such, and the way I was taught to clear a building was to burst in spraying. Granted not all military wisdom is applicable to paintball, but I've found this aprticular bit to be. You never know what's around a corner, and if there's an enemy, you've gotta get them before they get you- taking a building is one of the ahrdest things to do when it's well defended, and firepower goes hand in hand with tactics in this case.

I wouldn't sit in a bush and spray at someone, I just use semi auto for suppression fire, but not and then a rate of fire equivalent to the speedballers can come in very useful.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Styro Folme Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 November 2005 at 7:11pm
^^^ok, i'm glad u don't cheat.  i can see your veiw, but i bet i could clear out a building with a semi.  That's just me tho.  just don't longball at people with full-auto.  your wallet will kill you in your sleep.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brihard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 November 2005 at 12:51pm
LOL, I don't longball at high ROF either- the only time I'd full auto would be rounding a corner if I don't know what's on the other side, or alternatively if I need to retreat, and I'm booking it the other way firing a couple bursts behind me to cover myself.

I'm normally a very low rate of fire player- careful semi auto shtos. But when you need ROF, you want a lot of it.

You could clear a building with a semi, but it the other guy knows what he's doing you're screwed. It's just not easy is all I'm saying, especially not when you're up against a guy whose semi is so fast it might as well be full auto- Hell, a real world automatic rifle or machinegun is generally only about twelve rounds a second. You can get double that with a 98C with response trigger.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Monk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 November 2005 at 8:10pm
Originally posted by brihard brihard wrote:

LOL, I don't longball at high ROF either- the only time I'd full auto would be rounding a corner if I don't know what's on the other side,


Ok, I have to say something now.

You are going to round a corner and start blasting? Ok, thats safe.

Or do you mean your going to just reach around the corner and start blasting...Again...Safe, no.

Anytime you need high rates of fire, just shoot faster. Is it really that difficult?


Edited by Monk
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brihard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 November 2005 at 10:33pm
If I come around a corner and see a target or targets in front of me but not necessarily right there in front of me, sure, I'd blast a quick burst.. I wouldn't hose. I'd fire maybe 4 or 5 rounds; a stnadard controlled burst of fire.

It's no different from a speedballer firing a rope of paint at a fleeting target- I've been on the receiving end of eight or nine balls at once. Don't tell me waht I propose is any more dangerous, because it isn't.

If I had a 24bps semiauto would you make the same criticism?
"Abortion is not "choice" in America. It is forced and the democrats are behind it, with the goal of eugenics at its foundation."

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Monk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 November 2005 at 4:31pm
I would not make the same criticism, because it is semi, which mean that guy needs to be able to shoot that fast.

If someone is going to practice enough to get that fast, then I say let 'em.

If someone lights you up shooting that fast then they are just being an idiot.

If someone is using full auto, then the chances of bonus balling is more.

What Im getting at is, one is controled and one is not, Full auto being the latter. Again I go back to the player being scared and holding down the trigger, albiet one instance, but its a good one.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Styro Folme Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 November 2005 at 10:41pm

the more i think about it, the more people don't like a challenge..... honestly though....i don't think a field could afford to have insurence if they allowed full-auto....come to think of it, no fields use full-auto....

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote shadow ace Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 November 2005 at 7:28pm

Originally posted by Mack Mack wrote:

Heck, I'd like to see this worked out just because it is so technically challenging.  Even if it wasn't allowed on any field their would still be the satisfaction of having achieved something that others said couldn't be done.

EXACTLY

THANKYOU

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 November 2005 at 1:34am
^^^You're welcome.

I'm kind of amused by what some people consider "cheating".
  • Earlier in this thread someone essentially stated that full-auto was cheating, but the same rate of fire with a electric on semi wasn't.
  • In another thread a while back someone referred to using a Flatline barrel as cheating because of the range advantage it provides.
  • I've heard people complain that people who use an electro-marker against others using mechanical markers are cheating.
  • If you go back far enough all of the below were also considered cheating or unfair at one time.
    • Using 200 round hoppers instead of 45-60 round hoppers.
    • Using 45-60 round hoppers instead of 10-20 round "stick" feeders.
    • Reloading with pods instead of 10 round tubes.
    • Using electric hoppers instead of gravity fed hoppers.
    • Using gravity fed hoppers instead of "rock-n-cock" systems.
    • Using mechanical semi-automatic markers.
    • Using pump markers with an auto-trigger.
    • Using pump markers instead of more primative cocking systems like the Nel-spot bolt action or the Splatmaster system that required the protruding bolt be pushed back inside the marker before each shot.
    • Using constant air when everyone else was using 12 grams.
My point is, if it's not forbidden where you play, then it's not cheating.  I play woodsball and generally use mechanical semis-autos.  I regularly have to face speedball types with super light triggers and numerous firing modes (all usually faster than me).  While it would be nice if they had to give up their raceguns and play with markers like mine, that's not going to happen; therefore, I just do my best to neutralize whatever advantages they have and take them out anyway.  Paintball technology will keep advancing so we might as well just recognize that someone is always going to have an advantage over somebody else and whining won't do anything about it.  Anyone who can't get over that fact should give up paintball and take up a sport like checkers where everyone starts out even.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Styro Folme Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 November 2005 at 1:10am
^^^dude, there is no way people where seriuous about most of those things being cheating.  And yes, full-auto is cheating and semi with the same rof isn't.  full-auto is more dangerous and it also takes alot of fun out of the game on all sides.  why do u think the NPPL, and every other non-idiot-ran field doesn't alow full-auto?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 November 2005 at 2:13am

Originally posted by Styro Folme Styro Folme wrote:

^^^dude, there is no way people where seriuous about most of those things being cheating. 

Yes, they were serious.  I know because I was around for every one of the above mentioned innovations including when people with "rapid-firing" pump markers first started taking on those of us unfortunate enough to still be armed with Splatmasters.

And yes, full-auto is cheating and semi with the same rof isn't. 

That's not up to you to determine, that is decided by whoever is in charge of the field, or in the case of "outlaw" games, it is determined by the property owner, or through the consensus of the players.  Additionally, I know from experience that a player can just as easily get overshot by a semi-automatic electric "racegun" as they can by a full-auto of any type.  It usually has to do with the amount of paint that the person firing already had in the air when the first hit was called.  In cases where someone keeps firing after eliminating the opponent in question, that's just wrong, no matter what type of marker is being used to do it.  In those rare cases where a "surprise" occurs and someone fires in panic I have noticed that the speedball types with electric semis are just as prone to firing multiple shots as the folks with full-autos.  The only difference I've noticed here is that the full-autos tend to wander off target sooner during fright-firing.

 full-auto is more dangerous and it also takes alot of fun out of the game on all sides. 

  • How is it more dangerous, is this your opinion or can you back it up with actual facts?  A long rope of paint is still a long rope of paint no matter what kind of marker it came from.
  • I find it interesting that you think full auto takes the fun out of the game.  Could that be because you don't like facing full auto fire.  Try changing your perspective for a minute; the newb renters with stock 98s probably don't think going up against Ions or E-Spyders is all that much fun either.  If you really want it to be fair, everyone should use the exact same marker.

why do u think the NPPL, and every other non-idiot-ran field doesn't alow full-auto?

  • While it is true that many places (and tournaments) don't allow full auto, I feel compelled to point out that the "professional" level of paintball seems to have a lot of trouble keeping people from using "cheat modes" hidden in the internal electronics of their markers which kind of invalidates your comparison.
  • I consider anyone who uses such a mode (full auto, ramping, whatever) when it is not allowed, to be a cheater; however, if any of the above is allowed at a game site, then it is not cheating and anyone who doesn't feel they can handle that type of play should trade their marker for a pacifier and go play a nice safe game of checkers.

Edited Note:  As an example of my assertion in a previous post that almost every advancement in paintball technology has been considered unfair at one time or another consider the following quotes from pages 33-34 of Bill Barnes book Paintball! Strategies & Tactics which was first published in 1993:

  • A rather controversial item on the paintball scene is the attachment, via a hose, of a tank of CO2 to your weapon.  Although I have a few reservations about this particular modification . . . it allows a player to fire without worrying about changing CO2 or running low during a firefight.
  • Weapons with constant air are quite common, though many fields ban the use of "CA".  I prefer a more spartan approach and . . . rely on the use of stock weapons without constant air.  Playing without it develops more skill and finesse in your game.  And if you're interested in serious competition, it's not a good idea to become used to playing with constant air, because it's not allowed in many tournaments.

Note, I added the boldface for emphasis.  Do any of those items sound familiar?



Edited by Mack
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brihard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 November 2005 at 12:42pm

Thank you, Mack- both excellent posts.

I consider myself disciplined and safe enough to be able to use full auto without being dangerous- note that I've not once advocated spray and pray- when I think full auto, it's ALWAYS short, controlledbursts- That's how I've been trained in real life, and that's how I'd play it on the field. I'm not the sort to mash a trigger in fear- and when I'm hit the first thing I do is aim my marker away. Your fear is not necessarily valid. Certainly it doesn't convince me that I ought not to try it. I still think that a full auto 15bps, for instance, would be more 'legit' than a super light trigger firing 24bps- say a super response trigger mod, or an electronic marker. As mack said, a rope of paint is a rope of paint.

 

"Abortion is not "choice" in America. It is forced and the democrats are behind it, with the goal of eugenics at its foundation."

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JustLooking Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 November 2005 at 6:38pm

Ucan do this with a new boarded halo...   i do it all the time and the field owners dont care cuz its a 98 for god sakes...   Also mine WAS interchangeble because i drilled a hole in the upper frame to slide the "auto pin"  in and out of the xtra smace in the sear.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JustLooking Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 November 2005 at 6:46pm
Look at the black heart board from Smart Parts what is the NXL mode?????   3 shots above 3bps and then...    WHAT  full auto.   so apparently its not too dangerous because it is used in ALL NXL tourneys.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cheetos3254 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 November 2005 at 8:26pm
Originally posted by brihard brihard wrote:

.......20~ prewinds, and not a full
pod, but apparently it was reliable for the first 60
shots or so......
So basically the first 2 seconds were
unblended

Edited by Cheetos3254
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Styro Folme Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 November 2005 at 8:48pm
Originally posted by Mack Mack wrote:

Originally posted by Styro Folme Styro Folme wrote:

^^^dude, there is no way people where seriuous about most of those things being cheating. 

Yes, they were serious.  I know because I was around for every one of the above mentioned innovations including when people with "rapid-firing" pump markers first started taking on those of us unfortunate enough to still be armed with Splatmasters.

I'm sorry, i thought you meant recently.  you failed to say when these things where considered cheating.

And yes, full-auto is cheating and semi with the same rof isn't. 

That's not up to you to determine, that is decided by whoever is in charge of the field, or in the case of "outlaw" games, it is determined by the property owner, or through the consensus of the players.  Additionally, I know from experience that a player can just as easily get overshot by a semi-automatic electric "racegun" as they can by a full-auto of any type.  It usually has to do with the amount of paint that the person firing already had in the air when the first hit was called.  In cases where someone keeps firing after eliminating the opponent in question, that's just wrong, no matter what type of marker is being used to do it.  In those rare cases where a "surprise" occurs and someone fires in panic I have noticed that the speedball types with electric semis are just as prone to firing multiple shots as the folks with full-autos.  The only difference I've noticed here is that the full-autos tend to wander off target sooner during fright-firing.

you are right, it isn't my decision.  but look, the fields don't allow it, what about that? 

 full-auto is more dangerous and it also takes alot of fun out of the game on all sides. 

  • How is it more dangerous, is this your opinion or can you back it up with actual facts?  A long rope of paint is still a long rope of paint no matter what kind of marker it came from.
  • I find it interesting that you think full auto takes the fun out of the game.  Could that be because you don't like facing full auto fire.  Try changing your perspective for a minute; the newb renters with stock 98s probably don't think going up against Ions or E-Spyders is all that much fun either.  If you really want it to be fair, everyone should use the exact same marker.

Think about this.  A guy bunkers another guy.  guy #2 panics and accedently holds down the trigger.  guy #1 gets overshot, gets mad, and now he wants to get even.  He punches guy #2.  This triggers a fistfight, an arrest, and more bad points for our sport.  I have seen fights in the deadbox before. NOT PRETTY.

This takes the fun out of the game for everyone.  I don't think anyone would actually "like" to face a full-auto.  in fact, that would just be weird to enjoy that kind of thing.  does this make me a coward to not want to go up against full-autos? no.  will i go up against full-autos? sure, as long as i am not insanely overshot.  about the newbs going against higher-end guns, most good fields will seperate the teams according to experiance and firepower.  This gives the newbs more confidence.  It would be boring if everyone had the same marker.  The second biggest aspect of the game is upgrading your equipment as you seem fit.  But the biggest aspect is playing by the rules and staying safe. 

why do u think the NPPL, and every other non-idiot-ran field doesn't alow full-auto?

  • While it is true that many places (and tournaments) don't allow full auto, I feel compelled to point out that the "professional" level of paintball seems to have a lot of trouble keeping people from using "cheat modes" hidden in the internal electronics of their markers which kind of invalidates your comparison.
  • I consider anyone who uses such a mode (full auto, ramping, whatever) when it is not allowed, to be a cheater; however, if any of the above is allowed at a game site, then it is not cheating and anyone who doesn't feel they can handle that type of play should trade their marker for a pacifier and go play a nice safe game of checkers.

Ramping is cheating.  The NPPL only uses semi-auto because full-auto is dangerous.  i do realize other tournements allow ramp, but these are capped at 15 bps. how are you going to keep a consistant cap on a mech full-auto? 

Edited Note:  As an example of my assertion in a previous post that almost every advancement in paintball technology has been considered unfair at one time or another consider the following quotes from pages 33-34 of Bill Barnes book Paintball! Strategies & Tactics which was first published in 1993:

  • A rather controversial item on the paintball scene is the attachment, via a hose, of a tank of CO2 to your weapon.  Although I have a few reservations about this particular modification . . . it allows a player to fire without worrying about changing CO2 or running low during a firefight.
  • Weapons with constant air are quite common, though many fields ban the use of "CA".  I prefer a more spartan approach and . . . rely on the use of stock weapons without constant air.  Playing without it develops more skill and finesse in your game.  And if you're interested in serious competition, it's not a good idea to become used to playing with constant air, because it's not allowed in many tournaments.

Note, I added the boldface for emphasis.  Do any of those items sound familiar?

I repsect you, i respect this idea, and i respect your opinion.  if you have anymore questions/conserns please go ahead and ask and i will do my best to answer them.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 November 2005 at 9:56pm
Originally posted by Styro Folme Styro Folme wrote:

Originally posted by Mack Mack wrote:

Originally posted by Styro Folme Styro Folme wrote:

^^^dude, there is no way people where seriuous about most of those things being cheating. 

Yes, they were serious.  I know because I was around for every one of the above mentioned innovations including when people with "rapid-firing" pump markers first started taking on those of us unfortunate enough to still be armed with Splatmasters.

I'm sorry, i thought you meant recently.  you failed to say when these things where considered cheating.

It's okay, that's what I get for being old and not admitting to it.

And yes, full-auto is cheating and semi with the same rof isn't. 

That's not up to you to determine, that is decided by whoever is in charge of the field, or in the case of "outlaw" games, it is determined by the property owner, or through the consensus of the players.  Additionally, I know from experience that a player can just as easily get overshot by a semi-automatic electric "racegun" as they can by a full-auto of any type.  It usually has to do with the amount of paint that the person firing already had in the air when the first hit was called.  In cases where someone keeps firing after eliminating the opponent in question, that's just wrong, no matter what type of marker is being used to do it.  In those rare cases where a "surprise" occurs and someone fires in panic I have noticed that the speedball types with electric semis are just as prone to firing multiple shots as the folks with full-autos.  The only difference I've noticed here is that the full-autos tend to wander off target sooner during fright-firing.

you are right, it isn't my decision.  but look, the fields don't allow it, what about that?  

Actually, both of the fields I've played at up here (one outlaw, one a lot more organized) do allow it; however, the organized one strictly enforces overshooting rules.  Anyone who puts more than three breaks on someone else gets to walk off of the field with them.

 full-auto is more dangerous and it also takes alot of fun out of the game on all sides. 

  • How is it more dangerous, is this your opinion or can you back it up with actual facts?  A long rope of paint is still a long rope of paint no matter what kind of marker it came from.
  • I find it interesting that you think full auto takes the fun out of the game.  Could that be because you don't like facing full auto fire.  Try changing your perspective for a minute; the newb renters with stock 98s probably don't think going up against Ions or E-Spyders is all that much fun either.  If you really want it to be fair, everyone should use the exact same marker.

Think about this.  A guy bunkers another guy.  guy #2 panics and accedently holds down the trigger.  guy #1 gets overshot, gets mad, and now he wants to get even.  He punches guy #2.  This triggers a fistfight, an arrest, and more bad points for our sport.  I have seen fights in the deadbox before. NOT PRETTY.

So what you're saying here is full-auto is dangerous because some people are to immature to control their temper.  In cases like that I believe the immature person should be barred from the field, not the marker. (This is another rule that our field enforces pretty strictly.) 

This takes the fun out of the game for everyone.  I don't think anyone would actually "like" to face a full-auto.  in fact, that would just be weird to enjoy that kind of thing.  does this make me a coward to not want to go up against full-autos? no.  will i go up against full-autos? sure, as long as i am not insanely overshot.  about the newbs going against higher-end guns, most good fields will seperate the teams according to experiance and firepower.  This gives the newbs more confidence.  It would be boring if everyone had the same marker.  The second biggest aspect of the game is upgrading your equipment as you seem fit.  But the biggest aspect is playing by the rules and staying safe. 

This is probably personal perspective here, but I'm sure a lot of people will agree with it.  I don't mind going against full-autos because I enjoy the challenge.  Of course, on various occasions, I have also chosen to face people armed with mech-semi's, raceguns, and full-autos with only a Stingray, a Tigershark pump, or a PT Extreme just for fun. 

why do u think the NPPL, and every other non-idiot-ran field doesn't alow full-auto?

  • While it is true that many places (and tournaments) don't allow full auto, I feel compelled to point out that the "professional" level of paintball seems to have a lot of trouble keeping people from using "cheat modes" hidden in the internal electronics of their markers which kind of invalidates your comparison.
  • I consider anyone who uses such a mode (full auto, ramping, whatever) when it is not allowed, to be a cheater; however, if any of the above is allowed at a game site, then it is not cheating and anyone who doesn't feel they can handle that type of play should trade their marker for a pacifier and go play a nice safe game of checkers.

Ramping is cheating.  The NPPL only uses semi-auto because full-auto is dangerous.  i do realize other tournements allow ramp, but these are capped at 15 bps. how are you going to keep a consistant cap on a mech full-auto? 

The rate of fire isn't the issue in rec games, overshooting is.  If someone overshoots (generally defined as more than three breaks on an opponent) they're leaving the field no matter what marker they have.  If they do it a second time, then they're done for the day (with no refunds).

Edited Note:  As an example of my assertion in a previous post that almost every advancement in paintball technology has been considered unfair at one time or another consider the following quotes from pages 33-34 of Bill Barnes book Paintball! Strategies & Tactics which was first published in 1993:

  • A rather controversial item on the paintball scene is the attachment, via a hose, of a tank of CO2 to your weapon.  Although I have a few reservations about this particular modification . . . it allows a player to fire without worrying about changing CO2 or running low during a firefight.
  • Weapons with constant air are quite common, though many fields ban the use of "CA".  I prefer a more spartan approach and . . . rely on the use of stock weapons without constant air.  Playing without it develops more skill and finesse in your game.  And if you're interested in serious competition, it's not a good idea to become used to playing with constant air, because it's not allowed in many tournaments.

Note, I added the boldface for emphasis.  Do any of those items sound familiar?

I repsect you, i respect this idea, and i respect your opinion.  if you have anymore questions/conserns please go ahead and ask and i will do my best to answer them.

P.S.  Hey, look at all the pretty colors!

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brihard View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brihard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 November 2005 at 12:25pm
Originally posted by Cheetos3254 Cheetos3254 wrote:

So basically the first 2 seconds were
unblended


I didn't see ANY blends in the video, however the text only quoted 60 balls or so- maybe that's all he put in the Qloader. Not sure.

Either way it's a start.

Originally posted by JustLooking JustLooking wrote:

Ucan do this with a new boarded halo...   i do it all the time and the field owners dont care cuz its a 98 for god sakes...   Also mine WAS interchangeble because i drilled a hole in the upper frame to slide the "auto pin"  in and out of the xtra smace in the sear.


So you've actually done this and had it work, no chops? Pretty cool. That's impressive how you drilled a hole for the pin so you can make it quasi-select fire. How reliable is it, and what rate of fire do you get?

My idea is to add a small fire slsector to a pin drilled through the rear of the pstol grip that when in automatic position pushes the sear from behind and forces constant contact with the trigger. It would be a tad tough, but only in terms fo tolerances and making the actual pin assembly you need. Technically it shouldn't be too tough; you could probably dremel an old Allen wrench to do it.
"Abortion is not "choice" in America. It is forced and the democrats are behind it, with the goal of eugenics at its foundation."

-FreeEnterprise, 21 April 2011.

Yup, he actually said that.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JustLooking Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 November 2005 at 4:02pm
It only shot 23 bps but i needed the new board in the halo because the bolt(without a sear to catch it dosent TOTALLY uncover the hole for the ball to go in the chamber = /
04 Kapp Autococker
Planet eclipse E-Blade with Eyes
Sto Ram
Palmers Lpr
Delrin Bolt
Freak
Clamping feedneck
QEV's
CP Drop
Samuri Trigger
AKA Regulator
68/4500 WGP Adjustable Output Tank

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote paintballdave Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 November 2005 at 10:38pm
 i have not read all replys but i will say just this you will never feed paint fast enuf
woodsball rulz trees stop bullets ballons don't      keep working millons on welfair depend on YOU!!!!
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