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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lightningbolt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 October 2005 at 3:22pm

Last weekend I actually started to rig up an experiment to try and make proof of something but my sprayer wasn't working right and I couldn't produce enough water mist mixed with the air to make the air flow visible.

The most valuable thing is that backspin creates lift which we all know is true so...

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KillerOne Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 October 2005 at 9:39pm

KillerOne is back again I had to go work for awhile -

 at any rate I've been catching up on what’s been going on and I'm glad to see that HALO finally read the NASA page - I'm sure glad that it helped you out there buddy boy -

So far we got back spin = reduced drag, and lift.

  Thus farther shots right - So have we agreed that because its goes Farther it also Hits harder or are we still working on that one?

   This is taking along time to figure it out – but wouldn’t it stand to reason that if I have two barrels a Flatline like mine and a wonderful POS like UV HALO uses  – and if both of these barrels were shooting at the same PSI/FPS – wouldn’t it stand up in court that because of the Back Spin the Flatline would go Farther and Hit harder?

Understanding of course that Backspin = lift, reduced drag.

What say you ?   

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote A5 dude15 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 October 2005 at 10:02pm
no, both of the balls have the same velocity and both are decelarating at the same rate, so at any given time the balls are traveling at the same velocity and therefor will hit the same. however, the flatline shoots further, so, at 250ft the flatline will hit harder than the normal barrel because the ball fromt he normal barrel will already be on the ground with no velocity and wont hit you at all.  because of the backspin, the ball travels further, and the only way that it would hit harder is if the backspin allows the ball to maintain a velocity for a longer period of time, or reduce the rate that it decelarates. and this hasnt been proven yet in this topic...i dont think.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote A5 dude15 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 October 2005 at 10:05pm
i still dont see what you're trying to say that just because it goes farther it hits harder...it doesnt mean in goes faster or nything, it still has the same velocity as other guns with ordinary barrels.  besides, the recomended velocity for the flatline is 270-280fps while guns with normal barrels can handle 300fps. so in most cases, normal barrels will hit harder.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote A5 dude15 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 October 2005 at 10:06pm
and i still dont see why it matters if a ball hits harder or not, the ball usually breaks either way. im not saying that this is a pointless argument, im just sayin....ya
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KillerOne Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 October 2005 at 10:10pm

the longer it can maintian a higher vel. then the harder it will hit- the farther it will go.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote A5 dude15 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 October 2005 at 10:16pm
yes...if thats true, but you have no proof, nor does anyone haf proof that your wrong. as soon as you find some evidence that backspin allow you to maintain a velocity longer or decrease the rate of decelaration, then i will be all on your side. evidence provided in all of these posts suggest that one of the reasons (the only reason so far) that backspin makes the ball go further is because of lift and it canceling out with gravity.  this does not mean that its maintaining the velocity, it is still decelarating.  this is why balls shot from the flatline at longer distances tend to bounce off of you more often, because the velocity has decreased too much, if your theory is correct then there should be a break everytime at long distances.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sargent Duck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 October 2005 at 10:24pm
Originally posted by KillerOne KillerOne wrote:


 but wouldn’t it stand to reason that if I have two barrels a Flatline like mine and a wonderful POS like UV HALO uses 


You know, in a civilized discussion such as this, stooping low to call/insult a name, or insult UV Halo's equipment really looks bad on you. It shows some immaturity coming up, when you can't respect the other guy or his equipment.



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player: but it's paintball!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote A5 dude15 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 October 2005 at 10:30pm
but in a way didnt you just insult him? im not trying to start anything or point fingers...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote You Wont See Me Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 October 2005 at 10:34pm
No, he was telling him that in a civilived discussion such as this stooping down to such a low level made him look immature. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote A5 dude15 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 October 2005 at 10:38pm
oh, ok. the way i viewed was him calling him immature...which is an insult. but yes, insulting is really uncalled for, and isnt neccessary.  put down eachother with facts on the subject and by proving your point...not insults.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 October 2005 at 1:39am
I'm not even going to pretend to understand most of the physics involved in this discussion, but I will throw out a few observations based on 6 years of flatline use.  Then I'll add a few questions that I'm curious about.

  • The theory of backspin helping at higher speeds and hindering once the ball slows down correlates with my observations.  The shots from my flatline seem to fly reasonably straight/level out beyond ranges capable with normal barrels, then they just kind of "flutter" and drop.
  • I keep my flatline chronoed in the low 270s.  Through experience I've found I get the best results at exactly 272 fps with my marker and barrel set up.
    • Faster than that will get me additional range but really decreases the accuracy.
    • Slower (down to about 260 fps) doesn't affect accuracy or range appreciably.
    • Below 260 fps is where I really start to notice decreased range.
    • With this in mind, I always try to chrono in at 265-270 fps so that the velocity doesn't jump to much as the CO2 heats up during the game.
  • Now, with all that said above, I still get accused of shooting "hot" at medium and long ranges; but, when I checked, it has never been above 280 fps.
    • Is it possible that the spin makes it hurt more?
    • Could a flatline projectile actually be moving faster at the longer range because it traveled less distance to get to that point?  (Since the shortest distance between two points is a straight line.)
    • If the flatline shot was faster in such a case, would the shot from a normal barrel gain back sufficient momentum from gravity on the "downhill" side of the arc to compare favorably?
  • Finally, and this is unsupported personal opinion; I believe that while the flatline may provide a small velocity advantage at certain ranges, the main reason it seems to hit harder is because of the angle the ball strikes the target at.  The flatline provides the capability to hit targets at longer ranges at a near 90 degree angle while shots being "lobbed-in" from normal barrels tend to strike at much less severe angles.  Longer range flatline shots hurt more because they are direct hits rather than glancing blows.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LordJovian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 October 2005 at 9:07am

Nobody read my post?

Killerone- you're right and wrong at the same time.

At closer range- yes it "hits harder" (you need to use a term that isn't so elementary).

At long range- no, it doesn't hit harder. It has slowed down too much, and the lift is causing a ball that shouldn't be in the air anymore to stay in the air.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bruce A. Frank Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 October 2005 at 12:06pm

Originally posted by Mack Mack wrote:

(SNIP)

  • Now, with all that said above, I still get accused of shooting "hot" at medium and long ranges; but, when I checked, it has never been above 280 fps.

(SNIP)

I think it is likely that you are getting accused of shooting hot because you are making long range contact with your target. Many competitors are not fully aware that the flat trajectory is caused by back-spin rather than higher velocity.

When I was using the Flatline all the time there were several calls per session for the Ref to chrono my marker. The ref knows me and knows the barrel , but since there was a call for a check he had to comply. Also the down range loudness of the Flatline made many on the opposite side suspicious of high velocity.

Calls for chrono got worse when I switched to the Hammerhead Pro for a while. The way it is ported makes for a strange echo crack with each shot. Funny, now that I am using the Apex, which in my evaluation is louder than both the Flatline and the Hammerhead, no one has called for a spot chrono yet.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KillerOne Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 October 2005 at 12:34pm
Originally posted by LordJovian LordJovian wrote:

Nobody read my post?

Killerone- you're right and wrong at the same time.

At closer range- yes it "hits harder" (you need to use a term that isn't so elementary).

At long range- no, it doesn't hit harder. It has slowed down too much, and the lift is causing a ball that shouldn't be in the air anymore to stay in the air.

Ladies and Gentlemen we use elementary terms so that all can understand -

Bruce A Frank - I often get the same attention because of my flatline.

 

Range

Lift

Drag

All of these are relevant to the initial velocity (FPS/PSI) – so far all we have is speculation biased on formulas and theories – but none of this is relevant to a flatline or a POS because they will present their own set of variables, to say nothing of paintballs used – so what we really need is for some one to walk there happy self out-side and try this out.

Get a Chronometer – a cardboard box – a Tippmann a-5 , a flatline and then an assortment of other barrels. Fire a few rounds through each barrel at the cardboard box at different ranges. Record the results. Ie. what effect did each round have on the box, we are looking for Penetration, Denting ect... 

Then come back and let everyone see the results – I can’t be the one to test this and neither can UV HALO since we started this mess and would likely be accused of some sort of impropriety.

So someone who has nothing else to do and who will do it right get out and run some tests –  

 



Edited by KillerOne
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote daveandchig Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 October 2005 at 2:54pm

well, i just got my A5 kit in the mail today, and it has a flatline with it.  I didnt order the flatline, but now i have it.  SO, the dilemna is should i just sell the dang thing, or take it out and shoot it first.  You can surely understand the risk of shooting it, then not liking it, and having to sell it for a used value.  If i do end up shooting it, then i wil do the experiment that KillerOne suggested with the Flatline, J&J Ceramic, and the stock barrel.  Only problem is that i dont have a chrono.

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clark Kent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 October 2005 at 2:58pm
Originally posted by KillerOne KillerOne wrote:

So far we got back spin = reduced drag, and lift.

No.

So far we have lift, and reduced drag UNDER SOME CIRCUMSTANCES, and INCREASED drag under other circumstances.

What we DON'T have is a precise calculation to determine which of these circumstances apply, or an empirical study to determine the actual result.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote A5 dude15 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 October 2005 at 3:45pm
lordjovian...in your post on the last page you posted that balls from the flatline decelarate slower...but you have no proof. if this was proven though, then the flatline would definitly hit harder hit harder. youl had no evidence to back up that statement.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote UV Halo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 October 2005 at 3:58am
Originally posted by KillerOne KillerOne wrote:

KillerOne is back again I had to go work for awhile -

 at any rate I've been catching up on what�s been going on and I'm glad to see that HALO finally read the NASA page - I'm sure glad that it helped you out there buddy boy -

So far we got back spin = reduced drag, and lift.

  Thus farther shots right - So have we agreed that because its goes Farther it also Hits harder or are we still working on that one?

   This is taking along time to figure it out � but wouldn�t it stand to reason that if I have two barrels a Flatline like mine and a wonderful POS like UV HALO uses  ï¿½ and if both of these barrels were shooting at the same PSI/FPS � wouldn�t it stand up in court that because of the Back Spin the Flatline would go Farther and Hit harder?

Understanding of course that Backspin = lift, reduced drag.

What say you ?   



KillerOne-  Get a clue, or are you too dumb to follow links?  I responded to your NASA bit back in the Marker Gallery section, and I even mentioned it again in the beginning of this thread.  The picture I posted above was on the NASA website (just in case you weren't paying attention again).   I always have maintained that a backspinning paintball flies farther because of the lift it generates so, don't even try to come on this board and try to act like you helped me out.

You're the one who draws the illogical conclusion that if it flies farther, it must hit harder.  Nobody else here is subscribing to that crap.

  Neither in your alleged 'email', or in any NASA pages does it say that a smooth spinning projectile gains the benefit of reduced drag.  In fact, the only reference I have seen to this is in the one Monk provided.  If anyone bothers to read the Physics calculator pages, the author references the speeds a smooth spinnning ball needs to be traveling to gain the benefit of reduced drag, and a paintball, at 280-300fps, clearly does not. 

No, just because a paintball goes farther doesn't mean it hits harder.  Why can't you seem to grasp the concept that the paintball goes farther horizontally because the backspin generated lift gives it more time to move horizontally before it hits the ground?

 For crying out loud, you said you have a bachelors in physics.  Yet most of the people here with Jr. High, High School, and even 100 level physics can grasp this concept.

Additionally, how can you even place yourself on the same playing field as myself in this discussion?  When all you have done is gave us a link to a NASA center homepage (which I used to provide further proof of the backspin generating lift for you, and the pic I included above), and give us a supposed quote that you obviously misconstrued.  All this after how many references I have provided from .edu, .gov, the internet in general, and further, an interview from the inventor of the flatline?

I for one, do not believe you have a B.S. and I find it highly unlikely that you are a marine, because a marine would not lie about having a degree, and a marine would have paid a higher attention to detail.  Further, you continue to demonstrate your probability of being an immature brat, when you can't even restrain from mud-slinging.  To even go so far as to call my gun a POS, When you've never seen it perform.  I would even go to say that it would outperform your gun, in terms of consistancy and fire rate, as I'm double regged (a Dye fixed output tank, and a palmer fatty stab), I have an E-bolt, and a Qloader.

And this test isn't being done because people have too much to do.  It's a matter of having the right equipment.  Which unless you happen to have it lying around it's very expensive (at least one, actual, old-school shooting chrony, not your radar ones).


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LordJovian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 October 2005 at 9:15am

Have no proof?!?! Haven't you read any of these posts?!

The ball DOES travel farther than a normal barrel. It's been proven time after time since the 98C Flatline has been out. No, I don't know a link to a wensite to that tells you how it works, but you're sitting on a website that tells you it does work.

The ball is spinning backwards, creating lift. In order for the ball to fall to the ground, it must lose its velocity traveling paralell to gravity. This is a gradual drop. Lift allows the ball to "cut" through the air better. Instead of the ball standing still and basically "slamming" into a wall of air, it's spinning like a drill and "swimming" through. You don't need any complex equations to realize this- logic is a beautiful thing. How, HOW, do you explain the increased range?

Instead of throwing mud about drag, why don't one of you explain how it works, or how it doesn't really work at all.

Why does everyone have to appear smarter than the other guy? You guys look like children explaining the biological difference in ATP production on why your dad can beat up his dad. You're arguing about how a swallow could or could not carry a coconut.

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