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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote UV Halo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 October 2005 at 8:17pm
A5 dude 15-

  Thanks for the correction when you say F=MA.  I guess the better equation would be P=MV P, meaning momentum.  However, it is only my shorthand since we are not talking about the time related to it's acceleration or decceleration.

  Unfortunately, you have not read any of the links I provided and thus failed to understand the important role of lift and gravity in determining how far a paintball will go.

  You also failed to explain exactly how a backspinning paintball reduces resistance.  You just state it to be so, and carry on your argument from there.  So far, neither you or KillerOne, pointed out any references that state that a backspinning ball reduces reduces air resistance.

  If you read any of my links, you would know that a backspinning paintball generates lift.  The amount of lift is proportional to the amount of spin.  The faster it spins, the greater the lifting force.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote UV Halo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 October 2005 at 8:31pm
Originally posted by Sargent Duck Sargent Duck wrote:

I doubt if Tippmann's Tech dept is able to give a good answer. They just fix the things, they don't look at the theory of why these things work. You'd be better off contacting Tippmann Research and Development (if such a dept. existed).


Okay, since nobody here knows the number to the inventor and patent holder of this device- let me point you to an interview he conducted with Bill Mills of Warpig.com  If any of you don't feel like following the link, let me give you a quote:

"With that, Dennis Jr. Proceeded to explain that they had developed a system that put a strong and consistent backspin on the paintball.  The backspin, he said, provided lift that allowed them to shoot with a flat trajectory, and get more range than a standard paintgun at the same velocity."

So, I think I can say I own this thread.  Of course, I am interested in seeing results of a test.  Thanks Bruce if you can pull this off.  Those firearm Chronies are expensive!


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sargent Duck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 October 2005 at 9:22pm
Originally posted by KillerOne KillerOne wrote:

   I still maintain that a paintball fired from a flatline hits harder thanks to the backspin.



What's harder? This seems to me to be rather subjective.

In terms of this argument, as soon as a bullet leaves the barrel, it has 2 forces acting on it: the horizontal force which fires the bullet straight, and a downward force due to gravity. If there was no horizontal force, the bullet would simply drop to the ground upon exit.  If there was no gravity acting on the bullet, the bullet would contine in a straight horizontal line until it ran out of energy to sustain its horizontal movement (due to air resistance). At which point it would  either drop to the ground, or float away (no gravity), but there would be a measurable point. So the question then becomes, does the bullet have the same horizontal force behind it (the speed of the bullet, what you feel when you get hit) after it has traveled 300 feet, whether gravity is acting on it or not? Since nothing else is acting against the horizontal force of the bullet (well, air resistance, but this is the same in both cases, and assumed neglible), then, at 300 feet, the bullet with gravity will be going the same speed as the bullet without gravity. (The bullet with gravity sees a larger downward force at the end of its flight as the horizontal energy is diminishing, not being able to overcome gravity's force as well, and such, gravity pulls the bullet downward). Since it is the horizontal energy of the bullet that impacts you, this is what you feel. Since the flatline only allows the paintball to overcome gravity a little longer, and doesn't do anything to the horizontal force acting on the paintball, I'm gonna say that having the flatline doesn't make any the paintball hit any harder.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clark Kent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 October 2005 at 9:41pm

Nice Aristotleian physics there, duck...   :)

When the ball leaves the barrel there are two significant forces acting on the ball, yes - but the force that fired the ball is NOT one of them.  That force stops acting on the ball as soon as it leaves the barrel (or very shortly thereafter).

Gravity acts on the ball, and air resistance (friction) acts on the ball.  Gravity is (more or less) constant, air resistance is anything but constant.  It depends on the surface of the ball, the rotation of the ball, the velocity of the ball, the wind, atmospheric conditions, and a zillion other little things.  From one second to the next, however, the velocity and rotation of the projectile are the factors that will vary most significantly.

But - I do hope somebody does a proper experiment.  It would be tricky to design, however, since it might be difficult to compare apples and apples.  Since the Flatline has a flat trajectory and other barrels do not, the ball shot from the straight barrel travels further to get to the same horizontal point.  This makes it harder to determine exactly what we are measuring.  There is also the matter of "velocity" - are we talking horizontal velocity only, or vector-directional velocity?  Gravity is increasing the downward velocity of the straight-barrel ball, but not the Flatline ball, which would skew the results.

In addition to the normal confounding variables, we are adding a layer of complexity by measuring and comparing two entirely different trajectories.  In order for a study to be meaningful, the methodology would have to be carefully designed and justified.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote A5 dude15 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 October 2005 at 9:44pm
well i did find a webpage that actually said that the back spin decreases air resistance...and i would copy paste it...but i right click the link click copy but when i right click here the paste option doesnt come up...but it was on a webpage.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote A5 dude15 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 October 2005 at 9:48pm
i hate science...i quit....lol i got my progress report today and i have a D :( oh well....guys why are we all arguing over this...it seems pretty stupid...who cares if it hits harder or not...thats not even the reason why someone should buy it....how hard a ball hits depending ont h4e barrel really has nothing to do with the game...if you want something to hit harder just increase yur velocity and be happy...lets not waste all of our time arguning over this..........mkay
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KillerOne Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 October 2005 at 9:54pm

 

UV Hallo - Heelo - Halo:

12 years in the navy huh - WOW. Corps-men are good to go - i've even met a couple of seals that weren't pricks - most seaman i've met are overpayed and over weight - you know what I mean? 12 years. WOW.

Anyway - I shot an e-mail down to some guys at NASA - the real NASA you know rockets - space. I have below my question and I used a Baseball as I'm sure they didn't have a Paintball Calculator handy like you did - and this is what they said( and by they I mean he).  

"Would a spinning fastball pitched at a batter have an increased acceleration because of the spinning?"

Actually .. yes. But it is a little tricky. Acceleration, like a lot of other physical things, has two parts to it .. a magnitude (size) and a direction.

 And both are important. If you accelerate a 1 pound ball with 500 pounds of force to the north .. the ball accelerates to the north. If you apply the 500 pounds of force to the east .. the result is very different .. the ball goes east. Obviously if apply a force of only 200 pounds to the north, the ball goes north, but it doesn't accelerate as fast .. the result is different again. So acceleration has two parts .. size and direction.

  If you throw a ball with some spin on it .. you have a couple of different forces at work. Obviously, there is the force in your arm which accelerates the ball in the direction set by your release. But the ball is travelling through the air, and the second your release it, an aerodynamic force begins to slow it down .. it decelerates because of aerodynamic drag. If you put a spin on it, you get an additional aerodynamic "lift" which is at right angles to the direction of travel and to the spin axis. So the ball is accelerated at right angles to the direction of travel. This makes the ball curve."

Curve? Yep Curve - up - down - left - right - the dircetion of the spin in relation to the y and x axis will determind that - Backspin? Lift? Acceleration?  What do all these things have in common- BT Flatline barrel 15% Farther - Harder.

Oranges, Apples  - symantics.  

How's CNN?

   Special thanks to NASA.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote A5 dude15 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 October 2005 at 9:57pm
well i think i trust NASA over any person on this forum when it comes to this....mkay
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote UV Halo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 October 2005 at 10:14pm
KillerNone:  Non-BS Physics Holder, whatever you are.

I already read your post, and even posted it above.  The acceleration, in this case, lift, is in the vertical direction.  The upwards acceleration is canceled by the gravitational downward acceleration which allows the ball to fly in a straighter path, and not fall to earth as rapidly as a non-backspinning ball.  Up does not equal forwards.  Can you not understand this?

Further, has anyone even considered the implications of a paintball that at the same chrono speed of 290 (280, 300, whatever your field's safe limit is) somehow hits harder?
  The Goggle industry would have to address this.  Because if it actually hit harder, it would be more likely to break a set of goggles at the standard 20' distance.

A5 dude 15,
  Did you not follow my link to the NASA website that explains the effect of a backspinning ball?  Did you not see the interview by Dennis Tippmann Jr., the inventor of the flatline barrel?  Did you not see the paintball trajectory calculator?
  Yet, you take some misconstrued email from someone we assume to be from NASA.


Edited by UV Halo
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UV HALO -

KILLERONE- 

  BE ADVISED, TRAFFIC UNDERSTOOD -

  FLINELINE HITS HARDER _ GOES FARTHER,

  KILLERONE ACTUAL, REQUESTS TO SEE YOUR GOGGLE CALCULATOR -

  HOW COPY, OVER  

  HALO want everyone to assume he's an engineer - that e-mail is from NASA and We can All talk to the CDC too if you like - either way - This is all for fun and at the end of they day I've seen my flatline and the flatline of my buddys at work - it hits harder and goes farther.

I've been reading more of your posts - and wrote that if you dropped a paintball and then fired one at the same time from the same distance they would both hit the ground at the same time - thats about as good as the other stuff you have posted -

"Gravity accelerates all objects downwards at a rate of 9.8m/s  So, if you dropped and fired a paintball from 4.9m up, they would both hit the ground at the same time, of 1 sec (not accounting for drag)."

                         --- UV HALO, TIPPMANN FORUM, MARKER GALLERY.



Edited by KillerOne
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sargent Duck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 October 2005 at 10:37pm
Originally posted by A5 dude15 A5 dude15 wrote:

oh well....guys why are we all arguing over this...it seems pretty stupid...


I for one think it's a much better discussion than the stupid "sniper yay or nay" threads going on over in the New Player section. At least this requires thought and understanding, more so than "I'm 1337 sniper, I r0x0rz j00r b0x0rs"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sargent Duck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 October 2005 at 10:40pm
Heh, Clark Kent, now that you mention it, I do see the error in my ways. Yes, you're right. The force is only there when the bolt strikes the bullet. The bullet moves forward by the energy that was imparted on it. I guess this is what happens when you drop engineering for something more profitable career wise. Start to forget stuff. And i'm too lazy to go back and edit my post though. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clark Kent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 October 2005 at 10:51pm

Killer, if you actually emailed people at NASA, you should at least have asked the correct question.

"Would a spinning fastball pitched at a batter have an increased acceleration because of the spinning?"

Technically, of course, deceleration is simply negative acceleration, but your question implies (as did one of your posts in the other thread) that the Flatline balls actually accelerate (move FASTER) after leaving the barrel, and that is of course patently false.  All the acceleration occurs inside the barrel.  Afterwards, it's all negative acceleration (gravity aside for the moment).

The correct question to ask would be "would velocity change of a travelling spherical object due to air resistance be affected by rotation of the object?"  - or some version of that.

I will continue my theoretical inquiries on this subject as well (no conclusive response yet), but I really do hope somebody does a proper study.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clark Kent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 October 2005 at 10:52pm

Originally posted by Sargent Duck Sargent Duck wrote:

Heh, Clark Kent, now that you mention it, I do see the error in my ways.  

I figured you just slipped...   :)

You actually posted a description almost exactly the way Aristotle would have explained motion, before the world had the benefit of Newton's genius.  So you might say that you are as smart as Aristotle.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Monk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 October 2005 at 10:53pm
Originally posted by Bruce A. Frank Bruce A. Frank wrote:

When I am not hanging out here I participate in a homebuilt aircraft group. Knowing a little bit about air flow over a high lift wing (blunt and rounded)  I am going to postulate that the back spin, while generating lift from the low pressure generated on the top side of the ball and the deflection of air downward, also reduces the drag on the ball allowing it to retain a higher velocity down range.



I dont really have anything to add to the topic, but thats exactly what I was thinking.

A ball just going through the air would push the molecules to the front of it. But a spinning ball would force the air to one side of the other, using less energy than that of a ball pushing the air forwards.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clark Kent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 October 2005 at 10:59pm

An airplane wing functions on the Bernoulli principle.  Almost by definition, the Bernoulli principle cannot apply to a travelling sphere.

The Flatline functions on the Magnus effect, which (as noted) is the same reason curveballs curve.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KillerOne Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 October 2005 at 11:09pm

The question is a matter of semantics - the answer I got was the correct one - if my earlier posts implied that the paintball gains acceleration because of the spinning than I just failed to explain myself – the real issue here is weather or not a flatline shots farther and harder – I still say Yes. What say you?

 

 By the way – anyone can e-mail any government agency – most of the time they don’t mind talking to you – just remember that you need to have a legitimate question to ask.  If you catch the right person they will talk your ear off, as long as you want to listen.  

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clark Kent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 October 2005 at 11:17pm

I say that I have been unable to reach consensus as to whether or how, as a theoretical matter, air resistance would be affected by the rotation of a sphere in flight.  I have some more people I want to ask, but I don't expect to get a clear answer.

At a minimum, I find that this is a very difficult question.  I have not looked in the literature, and nor do I plan to.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote UV Halo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 October 2005 at 11:25pm
Originally posted by KillerOne KillerOne wrote:

    HALO want everyone to assume he's an engineer - that e-mail is from NASA and We can All talk to the CDC too if you like - either way - This is all for fun and at the end of they day I've seen my flatline and the flatline of my buddys at work - it hits harder and goes farther.

I've been reading more of your posts - and wrote that if you dropped a paintball and then fired one at the same time from the same distance they would both hit the ground at the same time - thats about as good as the other stuff you have posted -

"Gravity accelerates all objects downwards at a rate of 9.8m/s  So, if you dropped and fired a paintball from 4.9m up, they would both hit the ground at the same time, of 1 sec (not accounting for drag)."

                    & ;nbs p;    --- UV HALO, TIPPMANN FORUM, MARKER GALLERY.



First off KillerOne, I never said I was an engineer.  I found and linked refereces, which to date, you have not provided.  Sorry but, the homepage of a NASA research center is not the same as the link to the page on the NASA website that describes the phenomena.  You seem to be intent on passing yourself off as a Marine with a B.S. in physics.  You even explicitly said so in the marker gallery:

Originally posted by KillerOne KillerOne wrote:



You talk from ZERO intel.  First. I am a marine. Second. I have a BS. in physics. 

This is Fun.
 


Second, do you doubt that the following equation is true:
Distance traveled = 1/2 (acceleration * time * time)

If you had a B.S. in physics you would certainly remember that.  I certainly remembered it from my Physics 100 level class.  Oh, and just to make sure I got my bases covered, the formula is on pg 23 of the Conceptual Physical Science, Second Edition, Hewitt, Suchocki, Hewitt.

Therefore, 4.9m = 1/2 (9.8 *1*1).

Third, do you doubt that if you drop, or fire an object horizontally, it accelerates downward at a rate of 9.8m/s in the absence of an atmosphere, (unless you give it some lifting force)?
This is illustrated and explained in section 4.4 Projectile Motion on pgs 86-87 of the above referenced publication.  Here is a question and answer from pg 87.
Q: "At the instant a horizontally held rifle is fired over a level range, a bullet held at the side of the rifle is released and dropped to the ground.  Which bullet, the fired downrange, or the one dropped from rest, strikes the ground first?

A: "Both bullets fall the same vertical distance with the same acceleration g due to gravity and therefore strike the ground at the same time."

This was also found here (an EDU site for you):
" A dropped bullet will hit the ground before one which is fired from a gun.
As shown in the illustration of a horizontal launch, gravity acts the same way on both bullets, giving them the same downward acceleration and making them strike the ground at the same time if the bullet is fired horizontally over level ground."



Edited by UV Halo
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bruce A. Frank Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 October 2005 at 11:32pm
Originally posted by KillerOne KillerOne wrote:

UV Hallo - Heelo - Halo:

12 years in the navy huh - WOW. Corps-men are good to go - i've even met a couple of seals that weren't pricks - most seaman i've met are overpayed and over weight - you know what I mean? 12 years. WOW.

Anyway - I shot an e-mail down to some guys at NASA - the real NASA you know rockets - space. I have below my question and I used a Baseball as I'm sure they didn't have a Paintball Calculator handy like you did - and this is what they said( and by they I mean he).  

"Would a spinning fastball pitched at a batter have an increased acceleration because of the spinning?"

Actually .. yes. But it is a little tricky. Acceleration, like a lot of other physical things, has two parts to it .. a magnitude (size) and a direction.

 And both are important. If you accelerate a 1 pound ball with 500 pounds of force to the north .. the ball accelerates to the north. If you apply the 500 pounds of force to the east .. the result is very different .. the ball goes east. Obviously if apply a force of only 200 pounds to the north, the ball goes north, but it doesn't accelerate as fast .. the result is different again. So acceleration has two parts .. size and direction.

  If you throw a ball with some spin on it .. you have a couple of different forces at work. Obviously, there is the force in your arm which accelerates the ball in the direction set by your release. But the ball is travelling through the air, and the second your release it, an aerodynamic force begins to slow it down .. it decelerates because of aerodynamic drag. If you put a spin on it, you get an additional aerodynamic "lift" which is at right angles to the direction of travel and to the spin axis. So the ball is accelerated at right angles to the direction of travel. This makes the ball curve."

Curve? Yep Curve - up - down - left - right - the dircetion of the spin in relation to the y and x axis will determind that - Backspin? Lift? Acceleration?  What do all these things have in common- BT Flatline barrel 15% Farther - Harder.

Oranges, Apples  - symantics.  

How's CNN?

   Special thanks to NASA.

Hmmm? I think your conclusions from their information could be an exercise in semantics. How could there be any acceleration after the ball (or paintball) leaves the pitcher's hand (or the muzzle of the marker)?

Spin is imparted to the ball in the same energy transfer that accelerates the ball to the release. No further energy can be imparted to the ball after it leaves the hand or a marker muzzle. The imparted spin is not an increase in energy state. It is part of the energy state  at release. You cannot have acceleration without energy input. After release there is no further energy input.

The spin of the ball causes it to move, in the air, in a direction related to the axis of the spin, because of its interaction with the air. If spin imparted acceleration then the spinning ball would curve even in a vacuum, which it will not do.

 

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