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Flatline Theories...

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    Posted: 10 October 2005 at 6:36pm
Over in the Markers Gallery, KillerOne made the following statements:

"Tried multiple barrels - preferred A-5 Flatline due to ruggedness and increase range, shots hit harder."

"...expecially the way i've got it - it put a spin on the ball which does two things:

1. farther shots

2. harded shots.

Just like a baseball."

"Thanks to the laws of Physics - When you put a backspin on a ball (just like the flatline does) the result is acceleration and distance; increasing the Maximum Effective Range of my A-5 and anyone else using a flatline."

Personally, I find this to be garbage.  Everything I have seen in websites,  discussions on the topic, High School, and College level physics (granted only 100 level) leads me to believe that the backspin on a paintball gives the paintball lift which temporarily reduces the effect of gravity, allowing it to fly further down range before it hits the earth.  I've even found two calculators that show the effect of backspin on a ball.  The first here, and another through a link he even replied with, here.
 Everything I have seen through the use of my flatline (and being shot by a flatline) tends to agree with the first calculator (the second isn't designed specifically for a paintball but, explains the same theory).  The shots fired from a flatline fly farther but do not hit with more force than a non-backspinning ball.

What do you all think?  I would prefer to keep this intelligent, and it would help if you could site your sources.  Feel free to include your personal observations just be sure to identify them as such.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote You Wont See Me Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 October 2005 at 6:43pm
Personal observation from being on the field: The flatline does seem to hurt more when you get shot with it.

Tests have been done ahwile back that show a normal barrel will lose velocity faster than the ball from a flatline. That would explain his "hitting harder" theory because the balls are indeed at a higher velocity than a normal paintball at that distance.

I'll try to find them and get you a link if possible.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote spudcrazy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 October 2005 at 7:18pm

UV Halo...You observations and research are correct.  There is no velocity change on a ball once a gun is chronoed.  If you chrono a flatline and a stock barrel and both are set at 285fps, then they are both at 285fps...exact same velocity.  There is no way the velocity will increase unless you reset the velocity screw or have "hot" CO2 issues.  (As a side, most field chronos are nothing more than a radar gun, which detects doppler shift, so generally the ball speed is measured after about 10 feet from the barrel.)  You are also right about the backspin creating lift to keep the ball up longer.  The backspin basically creates a low pressure (might be high pressure, I forget), that allows the ball to stay up longer.  Much like the vortex effect from an airplane wing....As far as it hurting more, or making the ball break easier, I can only guess that this too has to do with the backspin.  If the ball hits with a spin, it is more likely that the shell will "rip" and break, versus a "knuckle ball" with no spin.  Try to throw a water balloon at a sheet hanging from a clothesline.  If you are successful enough to get a spin on the balloon, I guaruntee it'll break on the sheet.  If you knuckle ball the balloon, it might very well just hit the sheet and fall to the ground.  Now as far as what "You Won't See Me" said.  That's correct too.  The backspin will allow gravity to be defeated a bit longer, thus at a given distance, the velocity might be maintained longer.  However, it is impossible to "gain" velocity from a backspin.

SO, your thoughts and opinions are absolutely correct.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kuhndog599 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 October 2005 at 7:22pm
wow u guys are smart
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote UV Halo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 October 2005 at 7:48pm
Thanks for the replies!


You Wont See Me-

I've never seen this article you mention so, it would be an interesting read for sure.  However, the only time I have seen mention of anything reducing drag on a spherical object (allowing it to maintain it's horizontal velocity longer), is dimples on a golf ball.  This site describes the effect of the dimples as well as backspin on golf balls.

The Painball Trajectory Calculator with the default settings show that a standard 280fps shot, with no elevation, with the barrel 5ft above the ground,  at .551 seconds into flight, will be moving at 139.7fps, and will fly for a total of 113.1ft.
   While a backspinning shot  (at 12,340RPM) at .551 seconds into it's flight will be moving at 137fps, and will fly for a total of 157.1ft.

It's most important to note that this calculator doesn't account for small factors like seams, or air temperature.  It also assumes there is no wind.  It still predicts a difference of 2.7fps.  This could be overwhelmed by things like a tail wind, or combinations of such in real world testing.


Edited by UV Halo
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roader Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 October 2005 at 7:56pm
when i used a flatline i found that they didnt hit as hard and i had more bounces
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote You Wont See Me Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 October 2005 at 8:03pm
I'm still searching for the article, I'll have more time for it later tonight.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KillerOne Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 October 2005 at 8:27pm

UV HALO has sandenginyitus -

 So I went back and reviewed my previous posts  

   I still maintain that a paintball fired from a flatline hits harder thanks to the backspin.

Lift allows paintball to travel further because of this lift (backspin) a shot fired from a flatline will maintain its velocity better than a paintball fired from a regular barrel so that when you are hit by one it is a harder hit.

Both from on field observations and www.grc.nasa.gov.

One other thing:

"

Would a spinning fastball pitched at a batter have an increased acceleration because of the spinning?

Actually .. yes. But it is a little tricky. Acceleration, like a lot of other physical things, has two parts to it .. a magnitude (size) and a direction.

And both are important. If you accelerate a 1 pound ball with 500 pounds of force to the north .. the ball accelerates to the north. If you apply the 500 pounds of force to the east .. the result is very different .. the ball goes east. Obviously if apply a force of only 200 pounds to the north, the ball goes north, but it doesn't accelerate as fast .. the result is different again. So acceleration has two parts .. size and direction.

If you throw a ball with some spin on it .. you have a couple of different forces at work. Obviously, there is the force in your arm which accelerates the ball in the direction set by your release. But the ball is travelling through the air, and the second your release it, an aerodynamic force begins to slow it down .. it decelerates because of aerodynamic drag. If you put a spin on it, you get an additional aerodynamic "lift" which is at right angles to the direction of travel and to the spin axis. So the ball is accelerated at right angles to the direction of travel. This makes the ball curve. "

    E-mail from the guys down at NASA.

   Same thing with a Backspin -



Edited by KillerOne
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When I am not hanging out here I participate in a homebuilt aircraft group. Knowing a little bit about air flow over a high lift wing (blunt and rounded)  I am going to postulate that the back spin, while generating lift from the low pressure generated on the top side of the ball and the deflection of air downward, also reduces the drag on the ball allowing it to retain a higher velocity down range.

That is to say that a non-spinning ball has the air wrapping around all side equally causing a low pressure area directly behind the ball. With back-spin, I see the low pressure area being pushed to one side effecting less of the surface area of the ball. While at the same time causing the low pressure area to be smaller.

Now I am going to have to pull out my old firearm chronograph to check down range velocity. Hope it will actually go as low as the paintball velocity.

Originally posted by UV Halo UV Halo wrote:

Over in the Markers Gallery, KillerOne made the following statements:

"Tried multiple barrels - preferred A-5 Flatline due to ruggedness and increase range, shots hit harder."

"...expecially the way i've got it - it put a spin on the ball which does two things:

1. farther shots

2. harded shots.

Just like a baseball."

"Thanks to the laws of Physics - When you put a backspin on a ball (just like the flatline does) the result is acceleration and distance; increasing the Maximum Effective Range of my A-5 and anyone else using a flatline."

Personally, I find this to be garbage.  Everything I have seen in websites,  discussions on the topic, High School, and College level physics (granted only 100 level) leads me to believe that the backspin on a paintball gives the paintball lift which temporarily reduces the effect of gravity, allowing it to fly further down range before it hits the earth.  I've even found two calculators that show the effect of backspin on a ball.  The first here, and another through a link he even replied with, here.
 Everything I have seen through the use of my flatline (and being shot by a flatline) tends to agree with the first calculator (the second isn't designed specifically for a paintball but, explains the same theory).  The shots fired from a flatline fly farther but do not hit with more force than a non-backspinning ball.

What do you all think?  I would prefer to keep this intelligent, and it would help if you could site your sources.  Feel free to include your personal observations just be sure to identify them as such.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tpitman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 October 2005 at 9:05pm
Let me see if I can remember this right:

Picture the motion of a backspinning ball. Since the ball in moving through the air, the direction of the wind as far as the ball knows is back towards the gun it was fired from. With it spinning backwards, the top of the ball is moving "with the wind", while the bottom is moving "against the wind". This causes drag and impact of molecules on the bottom of the ball. These impacts and the "conformative" motion of the top of the ball relative to the wind are what create the lift. This doesn't cause the bal to accelerate, but it might cause it to slow down at a slower rate(decreased acceleration if you've had basic physics), but I'm not sure.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote spudcrazy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 October 2005 at 9:27pm

Yep...wow, you guys should come to work for the gubmint...you know more physics than some of the guys I work with and we're all electrical engineers......BTW, Bruce, I imagine your old firearm chrono should go down to paintball speeds.  My buddy's chrony goes down to something like 100fps.  If you have the diffuser type, it should work.  It just measures the time the ballistic takes to go between a fixed distance.  I'm sure you know that though.  I'm actually making my own with a PIC as a timer, and some photocells for detectors.

BTW, Bruce, thanks for all the great insight you give on this forum.  I've learned alot about paintball from your posts.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote UV Halo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 October 2005 at 9:31pm
Saying I have anything is totally irelevant to this discussion.  Try sticking to the topic.

You've said in your other posts you have a BS in Physics.  Based in what you said previously, and what you're saying now, I say you are BSing in physics.   You also made these ridiculous statements:

"Ok Im going try help you out - so dig this:

Thanks to the laws of Physics - When you put a backspin on a ball (just like the flatline does) the result is acceleration and distance; increasing the Maximum Effective Range of my A-5 and anyone else using a flatline."

"Ok - lets use some logic here Gents.  - If the flatline shoots Further, then it would mean that somehow the energy behind it increased - right?  If there was an energy increase then that would mean the paintball would hit harder if you were standing within its Max. Effective Range."

To your logic statement, I think this quote applies: "I find your argument strewn with gaping defects in logic".  You may as well retract all of your statements regarding the effect of backspin because you are way off from understanding what is really happening.
Perhaps you missed my post where I said:
When it comes to flatlines, the effect of the backspin is to generate lift.  This lifting force is in direct opposition to gravity.  Because the effect of gravity on the ball is reduced, the ball has more time to move horizontally before it hits the ground.  This is what gives the flatline it's range.  Note: Backspin does not reduce drag.  It slows the ball down as well as slowing the spin down.  This is why shots at the distant end of the flatline range tend to bounce more.
However, for clarity, I would like to add that in the second to last sentence, I was referring to drag slowing down the ball, whether it is spinning or not.

I would like to take a moment to quote Wolfram Research's definition of Lift Force:
A force produced perpendicular to the flow of a fluid. It is predicted by Bernoulli's Law for any obstacle which compresses streamlines at one boundary and compresses them on the opposite one, resulting in a difference in pressures which causes the lift force.
This lift force is perpendicular to the flow of the air going past the paintball as it flies.  With a backspin, that flow is vertical.  as illustrated below.

Your linking of the NASA homepage says nothing.  Even more sad is the fact that I went to that page, did a search from that page on the word "backspin", and found this:

Let me quote the first couple of lines for you:
"All that is necessary to create lift is to turn a flow of air. The airfoil of a wing turns a flow, and so does a rotating cylinder. A spinning ball also turns a flow and creates a lift force."

  If you look at that page, you will find that there is never a mention of any reduction of drag, or air resistance.  Please, find one reference that states a spinning ball has less resistance, or drag.

So, how do you like those apples?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote You Wont See Me Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 October 2005 at 10:10pm
We're past my basic knowledge of physics.

Im thinking the article I read may have been in a magazine. I threw all my old mags out last month but maybe i'll be able to find it on theri website.





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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bango Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 October 2005 at 10:15pm
Call Tippmann's tech department and settle this. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sargent Duck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 October 2005 at 12:52pm
I doubt if Tippmann's Tech dept is able to give a good answer. They just fix the things, they don't look at the theory of why these things work. You'd be better off contacting Tippmann Research and Development (if such a dept. existed).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bruce A. Frank Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 October 2005 at 3:15pm

Originally posted by Sargent Duck Sargent Duck wrote:

I doubt if Tippmann's Tech dept is able to give a good answer. They just fix the things, they don't look at the theory of why these things work. You'd be better off contacting Tippmann Research and Development (if such a dept. existed).

I'll bet you that if you could contact Ben Tippmann he would be able to discuss the theory of round ball flight. Certainly he has accomplished development of a unique product that many "experts" said could not be done. Heck, I know some players who say that the Flatline really doesn't work. I guess they think it's an optical illusion...like the curve ball pitch in baseball. (years of controversy over whether a curve baseball really curved)

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote UV Halo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 October 2005 at 3:45pm
Originally posted by KillerOne KillerOne wrote:



Would a spinning fastball pitched at a batter have an increased acceleration because of the spinning?


Actually .. yes. But it is a little tricky. Acceleration, like a lot of other physical things, has two parts to it .. a magnitude (size) and a direction.


And both are important. If you accelerate a 1 pound ball with 500 pounds of force to the north .. the ball accelerates to the north. If you apply the 500 pounds of force to the east .. the result is very different .. the ball goes east. Obviously if apply a force of only 200 pounds to the north, the ball goes north, but it doesn't accelerate as fast .. the result is different again. So acceleration has two parts .. size and direction.


If you throw a ball with some spin on it .. you have a couple of different forces at work. Obviously, there is the force in your arm which accelerates the ball in the direction set by your release. But the ball is travelling through the air, and the second your release it, an aerodynamic force begins to slow it down .. it decelerates because of aerodynamic drag. If you put a spin on it, you get an additional aerodynamic "lift" which is at right angles to the direction of travel and to the spin axis. So the ball is accelerated at right angles to the direction of travel. This makes the ball curve. "


    E-mail from the guys down at NASA.


   Same thing with a Backspin -



KillerOne.
You have just validated all of my previous comments. The email clearly states that the acceleration (a vector value, in that it has a direction and amplitude) is in the upward direction (the right angle to the direction the ball was fired). This is clearly illustrated in the link I provided you, as well as in my previous statements. The upward (lifting) force for the most part is equaled out because the downward (gravitational) force is in the opposite direction. This allows the ball to more or less travel in a 'Flat Line', until the spin slows enough that it fails to generate the necessary amount of lift, and it begins to accelerate downward. The times when you fire the ball, and it rises are the only times you can say it has any 'extra' acceleration (and force). Even then, the only way you could experience that force is if you were providing some sort of vertical resistance.

What You should have asked is: "would a ball pitched at a batter with backspin have an increased acceleration in the direction it was thrown?"

Oh, and since you mentioned baseball, let me point you to this link. It's written by Professor Peter J. Brancazio, Department of Physics, Brooklyn College,CCNY NYC, NY

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote A5 dude15 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 October 2005 at 6:52pm
ok for some reason it wont let me copy paste my post that i made but i posted it in this argument in the marker gallery and i think it might pretty much end the argument.  i presented my argument backed up with facts...everyone should go read it.





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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clark Kent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 October 2005 at 6:57pm
I think somebody should go and do some actual science, instead of engaging in this circular theorizing...  yay for science!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clark Kent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 October 2005 at 7:03pm

Originally posted by A5 dude15 A5 dude15 wrote:

ok for some reason it wont let me copy paste my post that i made but i posted it in this argument in the marker gallery and i think it might pretty much end the argument.  i presented my argument backed up with facts...everyone should go read it.

You know, it doesn't exactly help your scientific cred when you can't figure out cut 'n paste...

But as it turns out, I did go and read your post.  You assume your conclusion, and fail to properly account for the variability of air resistance (among other problems).  So I am not persuaded.

I return to my previous point - somebody with a couple of chronos should do an experiment.

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