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Flatline Theories...

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LordJovian View Drop Down
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    Posted: 21 October 2005 at 9:09am
Mayhaps my statement is too broad. I made the same mistake twice on that one (trying to answer posts as fast as possible at work). I was trying to make this statement referring to the uplift the spinning ball has. I was trying to note the fact that an object will continue moving in a direction unless an additional force acts upon it, like gravity.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote daveandchig Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 October 2005 at 4:57am
much is the same in baseball.  A headwind is a fastball pitchers nightmare.....however, a junk baller loves the head wind because it causes his curve balls, split fingers, sliders, and slurves to break much more.  Think of it this way, the faster the wind is against the spin, it kind of equates to a ball actually spinning faster than normal due to the increased friction and lift effects.  Make any sense?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bruce A. Frank Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 October 2005 at 12:20am
Originally posted by Lightningbolt Lightningbolt wrote:

Bruce I'm referring to topspin like the Apex can achieve.

Any thought's?

The Flatline system puts back-spin on the ball, producing lift. Putting topspin, just the opposite of back-spin, makes the ball curve downward rather sharply (combining a downward "lift" with gravity). With the Apex it is caled the dive-bomb mode.

Most of my play with the Apex so far has been under the lights where it is difficult to see the dark (unfortunately) paint we have had lately. I have had only a couple of chances to try the "dive-bomb" mode so far. Arch of the flight path is sever with more that enough velocity to break the paintball when coming in from above.

Cheating the wind, a term used in golf, using top spin, is more about keeping the ball lower, below the tree tops, to avoid higher winds. Shooting the Apex into the wind with the "top spin" dialed in would likely shorten its flight putting the ball into the ground more quickly.

I have noticed that with the left or right mode dialed in that when, say, I am dialed to turn left and the cross wind is blowing from the left, the ball turns more sharply than when it is turning away from the wind.

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clark Kent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 October 2005 at 10:40pm

Originally posted by Lightningbolt Lightningbolt wrote:

A good golfer makes the decision on the type of spin on the ball. 

I'll have to take your word for that...   :)

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 October 2005 at 9:39pm
Originally posted by noobtacular noobtacular wrote:

From what iv seen with backspin (i havnt seen flatline though) it goes straight, then zooms straight up and drops like a stone lol. but thats only with airsoft guns :P so i dunno about flatline.


The flatline is very similar.  It doesn't go "straight up", but it does rise a bit at the same time it slows down dramatically.  Then it kind of just "flutters" and dies.  At exactly the right range you can fire well above a bunker and drop almost perfectly vertical shots in behind it.  They don't necessarily break, but they annoy the heck out of the occupants.  (In one case, I had an opponent that I was doing this to turn around, scream at a member of his own team to "********* stop it!", and start shooting at him.  I laughed so hard I had to quit playing for over five minutes.)


Edited by Mack
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lightningbolt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 October 2005 at 8:57pm
A good golfer makes the decision on the type of spin on the ball.  Approach shots usually have backspin to check the ball up for accuracy near the pin and drives on long holes or in windy conditions you try to apply topspin not only to gain more distance on the ground from roll but to "cheat the wind" as well.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote noobtacular Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 October 2005 at 8:29pm

Originally posted by You Wont See Me You Wont See Me wrote:

Personal observation from being on the field: The flatline does seem to hurt more when you get shot with it.

Tests have been done ahwile back that show a normal barrel will lose velocity faster than the ball from a flatline. That would explain his "hitting harder" theory because the balls are indeed at a higher velocity than a normal paintball at that distance.

I'll try to find them and get you a link if possible.

A ball with spin on it is much more likely to resist forces pushing against it (ie wind). I havent shot a flat line, but it might increase range lol. I have some airsoft guns with some backspin system...

From what iv seen with backspin (i havnt seen flatline though) it goes straight, then zooms straight up and drops like a stone lol. but thats only with airsoft guns :P so i dunno about flatline.

btw... BT Apex is supposedly much better than flatline.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rambino Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 October 2005 at 8:15pm

 

KillerOne, UV HALO - you guys both need to chill on the insults.  Don't make me spank you. 

Play nice.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clark Kent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 October 2005 at 8:10pm
Originally posted by Lightningbolt Lightningbolt wrote:

I've seen too many golf balls in flight to think otherwise but don't have the means to perform any sort of test until I decide if I'm going to get an Apex.

Keep in mind, though, that golf balls mostly have backspin.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lightningbolt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 October 2005 at 8:08pm

wow.

I've actually caught a ball shot thru a flatline by some guy, showed it to him across the field and put it in my hopper The Ville at HS



Edited by Lightningbolt
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KillerOne Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 October 2005 at 8:01pm



KillerOne-  Get a clue, or are you too dumb to follow links?  I responded to your NASA bit back in the Marker Gallery section, and I even mentioned it again in the beginning of this thread.  The picture I posted above was on the NASA website (just in case you weren't paying attention again).   I always have maintained that a backspinning paintball flies farther because of the lift it generates so, don't even try to come on this board and try to act like you helped me out.
You're the one who draws the illogical conclusion that if it flies farther, it must hit harder.  Nobody else here is subscribing to that crap.
Neither in your alleged 'email', or in any NASA pages does it say that a smooth spinning projectile gains the benefit of reduced drag.  In fact, the only reference I have seen to this is in the one Monk provided.  If anyone bothers to read the Physics calculator pages, the author references the speeds a smooth spinnning ball needs to be traveling to gain the benefit of reduced drag, and a paintball, at 280-300fps, clearly does not. 
No, just because a paintball goes farther doesn't mean it hits harder.  Why can't you seem to grasp the concept that the paintball goes farther horizontally because the backspin generated lift gives it more time to move horizontally before it hits the ground?
For crying out loud, you said you have a bachelors in physics.  Yet most of the people here with Jr. High, High School, and even 100 level physics can grasp this concept.
Additionally, how can you even place yourself on the same playing field as myself in this discussion?  When all you have done is gave us a link to a NASA center homepage (which I used to provide further proof of the backspin generating lift for you, and the pic I included above), and give us a supposed quote that you obviously misconstrued.  All this after how many references I have provided from .edu, .gov, the internet in general, and further, an interview from the inventor of the flatline?
I for one, do not believe you have a B.S. and I find it highly unlikely that you are a marine, because a marine would not lie about having a degree, and a marine would have paid a higher attention to detail.  Further, you continue to demonstrate your probability of being an immature brat, when you can't even restrain from mud-slinging.  To even go so far as to call my gun a POS, When you've never seen it perform.  I would even go to say that it would outperform your gun, in terms of consistancy and fire rate, as I'm double regged (a Dye fixed output tank, and a palmer fatty stab), I have an E-bolt, and a Qloader.
And this test isn't being done because people have too much to do.  It's a matter of having the right equipment.  Which unless you happen to have it lying around it's very expensive (at least one, actual, old-school shooting chrony, not your radar ones).
[/QUOTE]

   Wow UV HALO - I'm sorry I hurt your feelings, you are right I have never see you or your gun and I shouldn't have said that you have a POS - but from what I am reading about your gun - it looks like you really do. But that is neither here nor there -

   I can't wait to see the results of this test - until then - try to get this through your balding head - you have posted the same trash over and over again - and all you have given us are the formulas and theories- which mean nothing unless you can fix the variables that correspond to what we are talking about;

flatline

your POS

range

PSI

FPS

Lift

 - so sit down and have a donut you 40 year old reject because all that matters are the out come of these "tests" and not what you pull of the net or the "paintball calculator".

   Write back and let me know whats on CNN.

  

  



Edited by KillerOne
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lightningbolt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 October 2005 at 7:38pm

While topspin may have a negative effect in still condition's I still believe, in windy conditions it will prove to be an asset, with the proper amount of topspin dialed in with the Apex.

I've seen too many golf balls in flight to think otherwise but don't have the means to perform any sort of test until I decide if I'm going to get an Apex.

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clark Kent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 October 2005 at 6:30pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clark Kent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 October 2005 at 6:29pm
Originally posted by LordJovian LordJovian wrote:

Your first argument didn't make much sense. You said my statement was not true, then you mentioned it was. Friction slowing down the backspin wasn't even included in my statement. I said an object had to lose parallel velocity to the ground (gravity) to drop. That includes friction. I didn't list every single force that would affect it.

The bolded statement is false, unless you are traveling at orbital velocity or escape velocity.  Or maybe I am just misunderstanding you.

Rotation aside, consider the following physics example:

Take two identical cannon balls on a castle wall.  One ball is loaded into a cannon.  The cannon is fired exactly parallel to the ground.  At the exact time of the cannon fire, the second cannon ball is dropped off the wall, straight down. 

Q:  Which ball will hit the ground first?

A:  Both will hit at the same time.  The gravitational pull is the same on both balls, regardless of their horizontal velocity.  This is independent of air resistance or drag - the same result would occur on the moon.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 October 2005 at 6:23pm
Originally posted by LordJovian LordJovian wrote:

Mack, there will be much rejoicing. We shall dine on breakfast cereals, orangutans, and fruit bats. There will be song and dance (routines and chorus scenes) in your honor at Camelot.


Cool, but I have a request for the party.  "Bring me a shrubbery!"

Edited Note:  I like that saying, it's going to be my motto for a while.


Edited by Mack
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LordJovian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 October 2005 at 5:42pm

Clark-

Your first argument didn't make much sense. You said my statement was not true, then you mentioned it was. Friction slowing down the backspin wasn't even included in my statement. I said an object had to lose parallel velocity to the ground (gravity) to drop. That includes friction. I didn't list every single force that would affect it.

"Cutting" in quotes means, in the english language, that it isn't using the straight and defined method of cutting. If I didn't use quotes, yes, tear into it. But I did. I am trying to use a language everything else can read. And a hammer hitting plywood generates (slamming) less friction than a drill (drilling) into plywood.

And my last statement was my error. I wasn't referring to how drag works, I was referring to how the Flatline works. I probably should have re-defined my subject in the latter portion of my statement.

And, without further ado, all it took to pull the solution out was to mention Monty Phyton and the Holy Grail. Not harsh words or insults, humor. Mack, there will be much rejoicing. We shall dine on breakfast cereals, orangutans, and fruit bats. There will be song and dance (routines and chorus scenes) in your honor at Camelot.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clark Kent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 October 2005 at 5:22pm

Topspin causes, via the Magnus effect, a divebomb.  This has a detrimental effect on range.   :)

As to velocity retention, the direction of rotation should be irrelevant, except for rotation along the axis of travel (like a bullet) - the turbulence effect should be the same regardless.

Of course, if the ball is traveling straight down, gravity comes to its aid, resulting in better velocity retention, perhaps even acceleration.

Did I understand your question correctly?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lightningbolt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 October 2005 at 5:07pm

Bruce I'm referring to topspin like the Apex can achieve.

Any thought's?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote A5 dude15 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 October 2005 at 4:57pm
ok so at that site that was posted by mack, it was proven that balls from the flatline maintain speed longer. thats enough right there. that means that the ball from the flatline is decelarating slower than the ball from another barrel. this means that at any given point that the ball from the flatline will hit harder than the normal barrel due to slower decelaration. good job mack
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bruce A. Frank Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 October 2005 at 2:58pm

Originally posted by Mack Mack wrote:



Edit:  On a more serious note; if I understand the major arguments here, then the questions have already been answered in the following link.

(SNIP of one of the most informative articles I have ever seen in lay discussion on the Internet)

Mack,

Your effort to put that all together is amazing. I applaud you and thank you for what, I think, IS the conclusive statement on retained velocity.

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