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Ban CO2? Upgrade to HPA Now!

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Bruce A. Frank View Drop Down
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    Posted: 20 September 2005 at 12:07pm

We do a lot of discussing regulators and expansion chambers here on the forum, all intended to get around the problems with CO2. It is fairly universally accepted that expansion chambers are good. Palmer Stabilizers are better, and a combination of both is the best way to get CO2 to behave reasonably well.

Even with the Stabilizer the pressure, and thus the velocity, can spike dramatically with CO2. With the Stabilizer it is still possible to get liquid CO2 into the marker's valve. Thus allowing pressure spikes (though not nearly a significantly as without the Stabilizer). And everyone knows the problems with cold weather play and CO2.

One field that I am aware of, TAG in Watsonville/Hollister CA, is virtually banning CO2 on their fields. No CO2 powered marker can be used that does not have a regulator. They really do not think that is completely adequate, for the reasons mentioned above. They offer to rent HPA cylinders to use on your marker for only $5 a day (plus another $10 for all-day-air). They have also discontinued filling CO2 at their facility and have converted all of their rental equipment to HPA.

Is this the wave of the future?



Edited by Bruce A. Frank
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cv222005 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 September 2005 at 1:20pm
i think thats kinda wrong, i mean people spend money on their co2 tanks the same as they do for hp, but most of us who cannot afford hp have to suffer now? that also just makes the co2 tanks we have bought usless.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LordJovian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 September 2005 at 1:57pm

On the other side, however, people spent good money painting commercial buildings, homes, infrastructure, etc. with lead-based paint. Once this was a health hazrd, it was banned. CO2 can be a potential health hazard. I know a few people who were hit with spiked CO2 at a good distance, and they now have a scar from it. Imagine if the person using the spiked velocity (I believe it chrono'd at 350 fps) ran up to someone, asked him to surrender, and that person refused (that would probably be me). If that person tried to turn around and got shot in the face mask, the face mask wouldn't have held up and they'd be short an eye.

Just because you spent money on a CO2 tank doesn't mean anything. I spent money on CO2 tanks, old guns, etc. but that doesn't mean I HAVE to keep using them. Things get old, times change.

On the flipside, compressed air tanks can be dangerous too. Carbon fibers can tear, valves can be screwed with by unqualified people, etc. But, of course, the presence of an air tank is a normal safety concern we can't get rid of quite yet. Even the markers are big safety issues. Some risks are worth taking, some aren't. If we have the technology to prevent CO2 use and velocity spikes, why not use it?Steel compressed air tanks is what the usual rental HPA equipment are, and these are much safer than steel CO2 tanks.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bruce A. Frank Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 September 2005 at 3:52pm

Originally posted by cv222005 cv222005 wrote:

i think thats kinda wrong, i mean people spend money on their CO2 tanks the same as they do for hp, but most of us who cannot afford hp have to suffer now? that also just makes the CO2 tanks we have bought useless.

Well, they haven't forbid the use of CO2 (yet!) just that there must be provision made to reduce the likelihood of spikes by using regulators designed to handle CO2. You can install a Palmer for around $75. You can buy light weight wrapped HPA tank off Ebay for $130-$150. Some of the steel HPA tanks on Ebay go for less than $100.

So there are alternatives. I see this as little different than setting standards for goggles so that shop goggles and ski goggles were no longer acceptable.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ^Pirate^ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 September 2005 at 4:06pm
Originally posted by Bruce A. Frank Bruce A. Frank wrote:

Originally posted by cv222005 cv222005 wrote:

i think thats kinda wrong, i mean people spend money on their CO2 tanks the same as they do for hp, but most of us who cannot afford hp have to suffer now? that also just makes the CO2 tanks we have bought useless.

Well, they haven't forbid the use of CO2 (yet!) just that there must be provision made to reduce the likelihood of spikes by using regulators designed to handle CO2. You can install a Palmer for around $75. You can buy light weight wrapped HPA tank off Ebay for $130-$150. Some of the steel HPA tanks on Ebay go for less than $100.

So there are alternatives. I see this as little different than setting standards for goggles so that shop goggles and ski goggles were no longer acceptable.



72/3k used is like $60-$80, not as cheap as non-reg CO2.

I agree with the second part of that statement as well.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote whack-a-mole Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 September 2005 at 4:37pm
I think that's ridiculous. People have been using CO2 forever. I don't think it's fair to only accept one type of air, especially if both types have a downside that basically equal out. For me and lots of other people, CO2 is cheaper and easier to come by. Alot of the velocity problems and other problems associated with CO2 is either operator error or can be fixed with simple upgrades. Me personally, I've never had a problem with CO2 nor out of about the 40 people that I play with and their various markers have they had a problem.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sargent Duck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 September 2005 at 4:59pm
I've been using CO2 for a couple of years now, but never really liked it. Lot's of disadvantages, and no advantages when compared to air. I currently have an anti-siphon and a Palmers to help me get rid of some of those advantages. Then I picked up a used HPA tank. Now I'll never look back to CO2.

I don't think it should be banned. Banning is for something that's unsafe, and CO2 isn't really that dangerous (if looked after properly). However, I think your field is on the right track, STRONGLY encouraging the use of HPA. And really, $15/day isn't that much.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tigman250 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 September 2005 at 6:13pm

Originally posted by Sargent Duck Sargent Duck wrote:

And really, $15/day isn't that much.

add on a $10 playing fee and $50 for a case of paint then $10 for gun rental (if needed) and you have spent the better part of a hundred bucks!!! seems like too much for 1 day of fun now dosen't it?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Roll Tide Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 September 2005 at 6:22pm
Originally posted by tigman250 tigman250 wrote:

Originally posted by Sargent Duck Sargent Duck wrote:

And really, $15/day isn't that much.

add on a $10 playing fee and $50 for a case of paint then $10 for gun rental (if needed) and you have spent the better part of a hundred bucks!!! seems like too much for 1 day of fun now dosen't it?

$15 or a nasty bleeding welt on your neck that is extremely painful because CO2 can spike so badly?



Edited by Roll Tide
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mehs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 September 2005 at 6:26pm
One of the fields I play at bought a lot of 47/3000 Crossfire tanks, and they don't even bother using co2 anymore.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ken Majors Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 September 2005 at 6:30pm
So they are banning the use of the .68 Special?

Sad...it is a true classic.

The corvair was "unsafe at any speed", yet they did not ban them from the roads.
A few whiners get welts, so they ban C02.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cdacda13 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 September 2005 at 6:33pm
Originally posted by LordJovian LordJovian wrote:

On the other side, however, people spent good money painting commercial buildings, homes, infrastructure, etc. with lead-based paint. Once this was a health hazrd, it was banned. CO2 can be a potential health hazard. I know a few people who were hit with spiked CO2 at a good distance, and they now have a scar from it. Imagine if the person using the spiked velocity (I believe it chrono'd at 350 fps) ran up to someone, asked him to surrender, and that person refused (that would probably be me). If that person tried to turn around and got shot in the face mask, the face mask wouldn't have held up and they'd be short an eye.

Just because you spent money on a CO2 tank doesn't mean anything. I spent money on CO2 tanks, old guns, etc. but that doesn't mean I HAVE to keep using them. Things get old, times change.

On the flipside, compressed air tanks can be dangerous too. Carbon fibers can tear, valves can be screwed with by unqualified people, etc. But, of course, the presence of an air tank is a normal safety concern we can't get rid of quite yet. Even the markers are big safety issues. Some risks are worth taking, some aren't. If we have the technology to prevent CO2 use and velocity spikes, why not use it?Steel compressed air tanks is what the usual rental HPA equipment are, and these are much safer than steel CO2 tanks.


Lenses are tested to an extreme FPS standard. The highest estimate I heard was about 450-500 FPS.

I have been saying it since I bought my first HPA tank, CO2 sucks.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Roll Tide Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 September 2005 at 10:23pm

Originally posted by cdacda13 cdacda13 wrote:


Lenses are tested to an extreme FPS standard. The highest estimate I heard was about 450-500 FPS.

I have been saying it since I bought my first HPA tank, CO2 sucks.

I've even read where they will shoot solid rubber balls at the mask at like 350 fps, maybe higher. I'm not sure which company does that... I'll be looking for it.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TruePaintballer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 September 2005 at 11:19pm
i believe its a good move...that no marker should be sold with CO2...it is very smart safety and performance wise
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KrimsonKamikaze Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 September 2005 at 11:27pm
Originally posted by Roll Tide Roll Tide wrote:

Originally posted by tigman250 tigman250 wrote:

Originally posted by Sargent Duck Sargent Duck wrote:

And really, $15/day isn't that much.

add on a $10 playing fee and $50 for a case of paint then $10 for gun rental (if needed) and you have spent the better part of a hundred bucks!!! seems like too much for 1 day of fun now dosen't it?

$15 or a nasty bleeding welt on your neck that is extremely painful because CO2 can spike so badly?

$15 and/or a nasty bleeding welt on your neck that is extremely painful because you were a retard and got shot from 3 feet away at 290 fps...

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FyreFly Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 September 2005 at 1:57am
Originally posted by tigman250 tigman250 wrote:

Originally posted by Sargent Duck Sargent Duck wrote:

And really, $15/day isn't
that much.


add on a $10 playing fee and $50 for a case of paint then $10 for gun
rental (if needed) and you have spent the better part of a hundred
bucks!!!
seems like too much for 1 day of fun now dosen't it?



Actually, that's pretty cheap. At my home field, its $20 to play, and $100
per case of paint. So that's $120 to play, not including rental or fills.

I think banning CO2 may be a bit extreme, but HPA is definately the
future of paintball anyway. They are just speeding up the inevitable.



Edited by FyreFly

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bruce A. Frank Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 September 2005 at 2:03am

Originally posted by KrimsonKamikaze$15 and/or a nasty bleeding welt on your neck that is extremely painful because you were a retard and got shot from 3 feet away at 290 fps...[/QUOTE KrimsonKamikaze$15 and/or a nasty bleeding welt on your neck that is extremely painful because you were a retard and got shot from 3 feet away at 290 fps...[/QUOTE wrote:

A little point of fact here. A paintball hitting exposed flesh at less than 300 fps may leave a shell cut but will not turn the spot into hamburger. From what

A little point of fact here. A paintball hitting exposed flesh at less than 300 fps may leave a shell cut but will not turn the spot into hamburger. From what I have read paintballs striking unprotected skin at 335+ fps will do serious damage to deep layers of skin and inject paint into the skin and tissues just below the skin. This may lead to infection. Even when no complications develop such wounds may take 6 to 8 weeks to heal.

While using CO2 I did a series of tests holding the marker in positions that caused liquid CO2 to enter the power valve. (no expansion chamber and no Palmer yet) When the marker was held so only gas could enter the marker velocity was chrono'ed at 268-275 fps. Once the marker was pointed down and fired twice it was then placed on the chrono. First shot was 347 fps. Next shot was 355 fps. Velocity did not return to the original readings until the 5th shot.

Again, the move yet is not to ban, but to make sure those using CO2 are using the accessories needed to provide more uniform velocities.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sargent Duck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 September 2005 at 9:29am
Besides, in the long run, air is cheaper. I've yet to see (or hear) of any field that offers all day CO2 filling for $5 or $10. Using air, you'll cover the cost of your tank in no time. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bruce A. Frank Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 September 2005 at 9:58am

Originally posted by Sargent Duck Sargent Duck wrote:

Besides, in the long run, air is cheaper. I've yet to see (or hear) of any field that offers all day CO2 filling for $5 or $10. Using air, you'll cover the cost of your tank in no time. 

That could be debated also. I have my own CO2 fill station. It cost me $1.25 to fill a 20 oz bottle. The total cost of the fill station was around $100 including the cylinder. Three 20 oz bottles in my gear bag carried me through a full day of play.

The set up to fill my HPA is $300. And it takes 5 to 7 fills to play the full day. My field will not allow me to fill my tank in the back of my car in the parking lot. I certainly could not afford to own 5 to 7 HPA cylinders to stash in my gear bag.

All day air at my field is $10 a day whether HPA or CO2. But I never used all-day-air service when using CO2. Now I have no choice or alternative with with HPA.



Edited by Bruce A. Frank
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Blaze SA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 September 2005 at 11:30am
Guys for the price of putting X-chambers & regs etc on a few of your markers just get one HPA tank ! No one that has HPA regrets it. + co2 kills your markers & cant be used on higher end markers. Moral of the story ... Co2 sucks the quicker you get off it the better.
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