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I am reading the bible.

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DBibeau855 View Drop Down
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Example?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clark Kent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 June 2005 at 10:24pm

Not a particular chapter/verse - I wasn't too bothered by the Cains/Abels/Abrahams/Jacobs/Rending She-Bears/Bashing Infants kind of stuff.

To take a complex problem, and oversimplify for convenience:  The first commandment.  Thou shalt have no God before me (or other phrasing of your choice).

Different denominations treat the details differently, but the central hypothesis remains:  To be in the "in" group, and be admitted to Heaven, you have to believe in god.

I hold freedom of thought and belief very dear.  The idea that Heaven is only open to people who believe the way god decrees is offensive.

Again, drastically oversimplified, but you perhaps get the idea.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hades Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 June 2005 at 10:31pm
Originally posted by Clark Kent Clark Kent wrote:


By my standards, god is not worthy of my admiration, and certainly not worthy of worshop of any kind.


If that means I will burn in hell for eternity, then so be it - I will burn knowing that I held fast to my moral beliefs.



I wholeheartedly agree. If there is a God.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DBibeau855 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 June 2005 at 10:35pm
Well. Your talking in terms of the old testament. After the OT jesus overturned a lot of things. Its never said you had to believe in god to go to heaven. It does say, "the only way to heaven is through me" meaning, through the way of god.

Basicaly, what im saying, is no one is saying to have to scream his name on high and all that mess. There are many many ways to serve god. The vatican records are full of saints that hated god. But they served him. Wich is what is important. For instance, St.Sebastian, St.Guinifort.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SuperXero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 June 2005 at 10:36pm
Originally posted by Clark Kent Clark Kent wrote:

Not a particular chapter/verse - I wasn't too bothered by the Cains/Abels/Abrahams/Jacobs/Rending She-Bears/Bashing Infants kind of stuff.


To take a complex problem, and oversimplify for convenience:  The first commandment.  Thou shalt have no God before me (or other phrasing of your choice).


Different denominations treat the details differently, but the central hypothesis remains:  To be in the "in" group, and be admitted to Heaven, you have to believe in god.


I hold freedom of thought and belief very dear.  The idea that Heaven is only open to people who believe the way god decrees is offensive.


Again, drastically oversimplified, but you perhaps get the idea.



What would be meant by that is... Well, although you have the freedom of thought, etc, He wishes to be thoguht of as the only God, that you not see anyone else as having a Godly status, or anything else, as they are not true Gods, and to this would be dissrespectful.

Half the ten commandments are just common manners, and to treat someone as an equal to God would be considered disrepectful.

Keep in mind, this is just my interpretation, I don't claim to be an expert, or believe in any way.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DBibeau855 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 June 2005 at 10:40pm
Originally posted by SuperXero SuperXero wrote:

Originally posted by Clark Kent Clark Kent wrote:

Not a particular chapter/verse - I wasn't too bothered by the Cains/Abels/Abrahams/Jacobs/Rending She-Bears/Bashing Infants kind of stuff.


To take a complex problem, and oversimplify for convenience: The first commandment. Thou shalt have no God before me (or other phrasing of your choice).


Different denominations treat the details differently, but the central hypothesis remains: To be in the "in" group, and be admitted to Heaven, you have to believe in god.


I hold freedom of thought and belief very dear. The idea that Heaven is only open to people who believe the way god decrees is offensive.


Again, drastically oversimplified, but you perhaps get the idea.



What would be meant by that is... Well, although you have the freedom of thought, etc, He wishes to be thoguht of as the only God, that you not see anyone else as having a Godly status, or anything else, as they are not true Gods, and to this would be dissrespectful.

Half the ten commandments are just common manners, and to treat someone as an equal to God would be considered disrepectful.

Keep in mind, this is just my interpretation, I don't claim to be an expert, or believe in any way.


Exactly, being respected, in gods eyes, is paramount. It would apear this way because the first 3 comandments are souly about not having any other gods and respecting god.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clark Kent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 June 2005 at 10:41pm

Originally posted by DBibeau855 DBibeau855 wrote:

Well. Your talking in terms of the old testament. After the OT jesus overturned a lot of things. Its never said you had to believe in god to go to heaven. It does say, "the only way to heaven is through me" meaning, through the way of god.

Not OT at all.  I used the commandment as a convenient summary.  As you point out, Jesus was pretty clear on the subject.  That verse probably bothers me more than any other single verse in the entire Bible.

Ask your priest/pastor.  Assuming you have been exposed to The Word, can one get into Heaven without believing? 

I don't know of a single denomination that says "yes", other than some very new barely-Christian groups.  Some denominations require works, some don't, but faith is always at the foundation.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clark Kent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 June 2005 at 10:43pm

Originally posted by SuperXero SuperXero wrote:

What would be meant by that is... Well, although you have the freedom of thought, etc, He wishes to be thoguht of as the only God, that you not see anyone else as having a Godly status, or anything else, as they are not true Gods, and to this would be dissrespectful.

And this idea is incredibly offensive to me.  No, not offensive - EVIL.

If this is what god wants, then god is, by my moral standards, evil.

I pray to the First Amendment.  Freedom of speech, religion, and thought. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SuperXero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 June 2005 at 10:43pm
I think that you cna get in without believer, as long as you live the way outlined by the ten commandments, my teacher in elementary agreed with this, and it is the teaching of my church.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ejp414 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 June 2005 at 10:44pm
Originally posted by Clark Kent Clark Kent wrote:

Originally posted by DBibeau855 DBibeau855 wrote:

Well. Your talking in terms of the old testament. After the OT jesus overturned a lot of things. Its never said you had to believe in god to go to heaven. It does say, "the only way to heaven is through me" meaning, through the way of god.

Not OT at all.  I used the commandment as a convenient summary.  As you point out, Jesus was pretty clear on the subject.  That verse probably bothers me more than any other single verse in the entire Bible.

Ask your priest/pastor.  Assuming you have been exposed to The Word, can one get into Heaven without believing? 

I don't know of a single denomination that says "yes", other than some very new barely-Christian groups.  Some denominations require works, some don't, but faith is always at the foundation.



Most Roman Catholics don't realize it, but according to Catholic dogma, one does not need to be Christian at all to go to Heaven. Imagine that . . . .
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clark Kent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 June 2005 at 10:45pm

Erica - technically, yes, you are correct.

But the RC church require sacraments, including confession of sins, which in a roundabout way amounts to the same thing...

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SuperXero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 June 2005 at 10:49pm
Originally posted by Clark Kent Clark Kent wrote:

Originally posted by SuperXero SuperXero wrote:

What would be meant by that is... Well, although you have the freedom of thought, etc, He wishes to be thoguht of as the only God, that you not see anyone else as having a Godly status, or anything else, as they are not true Gods, and to this would be dissrespectful.


And this idea is incredibly offensive to me.  No, not offensive - EVIL.


If this is what god wants, then god is, by my moral standards, evil.


I pray to the First Amendment.  Freedom of speech, religion, and thought. 



Would you hold God and Charles Manson at the same standard, it would be highly dissrepectful to God to do that, not just becasue He is God, but because you would not have a stranger come before your biological father for example. God is supposed to be your ultimate father, so to say anything else is like him is to lower him to another level.

Perhaps God, with twisted sense of humour, would take that God being evil comment and send you to spend eternity in hell with satan .

And I think He would largely frown upon you praying to man's law over His.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DBibeau855 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 June 2005 at 10:53pm
There is a valey in france. Some heretic country bumpkin repaired the wing of an angel. He was sainted.

St. Terasa had sex with an angel. Bickety bam, sainted.

True, you need to beleive, you need to have faith. But my point is, there are other ways to serve, other than being completely subservient. True, you need to know your place.

But if you have problems with individual verse. Your picking the wrong bones. Verse like that, has been changed so many times. That you are arguing the wrong points.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DBibeau855 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 June 2005 at 10:58pm
Originally posted by Ejp414 Ejp414 wrote:


Originally posted by Clark Kent Clark Kent wrote:

Originally posted by DBibeau855 DBibeau855 wrote:

Well. Your talking in terms of
the old testament. After the OT jesus overturned a lot of things. Its
never said you had to believe in god to go to heaven. It does say, "the
only way to heaven is through me" meaning, through the way of god.


Not OT at all. I used the commandment as a convenient
summary. As you point out, Jesus was pretty clear on the
subject. That verse probably bothers me more than any other
single verse in the entire Bible.


Ask your priest/pastor. Assuming you have been exposed to The Word, can one get into Heaven without believing?


I don't know of a single denomination that says "yes", other than
some very new barely-Christian groups. Some denominations require
works, some don't, but faith is always at the foundation.



Most Roman Catholics don't realize it, but according to Catholic dogma,
one does not need to be Christian at all to go to Heaven. Imagine that
. . . .


You have no idea. Work for a church. I do, seriously, i teach sunday school. Last summer, i said some things that got back to parents. The parents didnt like what i said. But it is right there in the bible. Not hidden or anything. Right there in black and white.

There are lots of little loop holes. And they are spelled out in parable.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clark Kent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 June 2005 at 11:17pm

Originally posted by DBibeau855 DBibeau855 wrote:

True, you need to beleive, you need to have faith. But my point is, there are other ways to serve, other than being completely subservient. True, you need to know your place.

Bam - that makes god evil.  

EDIT - subservience wouldn't bother me nearly as much as the required belief.  Thought control is the most evil thing of all, and Christianity is all about the thought control.

Quote But if you have problems with individual verse. Your picking the wrong bones. Verse like that, has been changed so many times. That you are arguing the wrong points.

Nope - no particular problems with the verses.  I read the Bible the first time in a very educated fashion, with plenty of guidance, and had many conversations with clergy at the time.  I have also read different translations, and different languages (although not the original).

I am not getting hung up on individual verses - it is the central tenet of christianity that bothers me.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clark Kent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 June 2005 at 11:20pm

Originally posted by SuperXero SuperXero wrote:

Would you hold God and Charles Manson at the same standard, it would be highly dissrepectful to God to do that, not just becasue He is God, but because you would not have a stranger come before your biological father for example.

Not sure what you mean - but evil is evil.  Manson, my father, god - if they are evil, they are evil.

Quote Perhaps God, with twisted sense of humour, would take that God being evil comment and send you to spend eternity in hell with stan .

That would pretty much prove my point...  Although if the Christians are right I am Hell-bound anyway.  I kinda like Stan, though.

Quote And I think He would largely frown upon you praying to man's law over His.

Which is exactly my point.  That makes god evil.


 



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DBibeau855 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 June 2005 at 11:21pm
Knowing your place doesnt make god evil. Having faith, doesnt mean god is evil.

What denomination of clergy did you speak with? Generaly, christian clergy mean well, but can be misguided. Speak with a Rabi, very very knowledgable and some of the most carring people i have ever had the pleasure of discusing religion with.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DBibeau855 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 June 2005 at 11:24pm
Originally posted by Clark Kent Clark Kent wrote:

Originally posted by SuperXero SuperXero wrote:

Would you hold God and Charles Manson at the same standard, it would be highly dissrepectful to God to do that, not just becasue He is God, but because you would not have a stranger come before your biological father for example.


Not sure what you mean - but evil is evil. Manson, my father, god - if they are evil, they are evil.


Quote Perhaps God, with twisted sense of humour, would take that God being evil comment and send you to spend eternity in hell with stan .


That would pretty much prove my point... Although if the Christians are right I am Hell-bound anyway. I kinda like Stan, though.

Quote And I think He would largely frown upon you praying to man's law over His.


Which is exactly my point. That makes god evil.




1 that doesnt make god evil. god isnt evil.

2. God repects the laws of man. St. Pauls letter to the romans.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clark Kent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 June 2005 at 11:25pm

Originally posted by DBibeau855 DBibeau855 wrote:

Knowing your place doesnt make god evil. Having faith, doesnt mean god is evil.

Nope - but making faith a requirement is evil.

Quote What denomination of clergy did you speak with? Generaly, christian clergy mean well, but can be misguided. Speak with a Rabi, very very knowledgable and some of the most carring people i have ever had the pleasure of discusing religion with.

At the time, Lutheran.  As you may have noticed, I like talking religion, and have since discussed this point with people of practically every denomination and every faith, including a couple of Rabbis.

I actually find the Jewish faith more open-minded than Christianity, but even there the central required monotheism is strongly present.

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Darur Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 June 2005 at 11:26pm
Originally posted by DBibeau855 DBibeau855 wrote:

Originally posted by Hades Hades wrote:

I have a serious question for those that wish to answer it. I promise not reply to the answers with a negative response or retort, I am just curious what people's thoughts on the question is...

Since (most) Christian's believe life starts and the spirit enters the human body at consception, why is it horrible that abortions occur form the 'babies' stand point? Wouldn't the child be sin free and get a free ticket straight to heaven without having to live through the dissapointments and pain that one endures in life?

Just putting the question out there to see what people think. Again I will only to view a response as your opinion/belief and use it only as an educational viewpoint and not try to debate the answer.


You have a point Hades. The child would be guilty of no sin. The concept of "Origional Sin" is a human one. Created by man. The bible says you are responsible for what you know. So, by that, we can infer that if you have never heard the word of god, and you die, you are not held accountable. SO, babies would not go to hell or limbo(another human invention) or purgatory or whatever.

Hades, in short, its Political, religion turned to politics, and it sucks.


Acctually the baby would go to limbo, limbo is for the non-belivers and the unbabtized.
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