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10 most harmful books

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote goodsmitty Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 June 2005 at 2:20pm
Originally posted by Dune Dune wrote:

Originally posted by goodsmitty goodsmitty wrote:

Originally posted by Dune Dune wrote:

Originally posted by boshiev boshiev wrote:

The Koran has nothing to do with the bible. Even though some retard
decided to use a few quotes and names from the bible, does not mean
that the Koran is based on it. The bible is still the best-selling book in the
world. It is also the oldest, and everthing that is contained in the bible
today is the same that it was thousands of years ago.

You're partially true. The bible has been rewritten many times, including the now popular King James version which is not thousands of years old, maybe just one thousand. It has been reworked because of opinions.

That is incorrect. The bible has been rewritten many times, but only to make a newer copy when the old one was wearing out. The dead sea scrolls, found in 1947(?) is the oldest manuscript ever found, a thousand years older than any other manuscript known, and proved that the information has remained unchanged, except for small grammatical changes, effectively debunking the "changing bible myth".

Almost as if God were preserving it himself. Creepy.

I was aware of smaller changes that had been made; however, I was under the impression that larger changes were made in order to make religion more applicable to "modern" times. It was said even that Henry VIII substituted parts of the Bible for others when he "created" his own form of catholocism. A feat which some scholars believe and others do not. I know little about the old testament, but I thought, from reading a few essays and books, that the new testament had been reworked on a few occaisions by people of power.

Do a google search of the dead sea scrolls and see what you come up with. You and I both know that everyone with an axe to grind are going to spin the tale to their liking. However, the scrolls put to death the myth that the bible we have today is not the same one written by the original authors.

"Reading this thread, I'm sad to say that the only difference between the average American and the average Taliban is economic status."
-Zesty

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DBibeau855 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 June 2005 at 2:25pm
The bible has changed countless times. And i can talk about specific times it has been changed. Entire books have been removed. One that it is in danger of being removed is a book called "Song of Solomon" Its basicaly a love story that is a bit graffic. I suggest reading it. Its small, and not well known. But a good read, at least once.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote goodsmitty Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 June 2005 at 2:26pm
Originally posted by Ejp414 Ejp414 wrote:

Originally posted by goodsmitty goodsmitty wrote:

Originally posted by Dune Dune wrote:

Originally posted by boshiev boshiev wrote:

The Koran has nothing to do with the bible. Even though some retard
decided to use a few quotes and names from the bible, does not mean
that the Koran is based on it. The bible is still the best-selling book in the
world. It is also the oldest, and everthing that is contained in the bible
today is the same that it was thousands of years ago.

You're partially true. The bible has been rewritten many times, including the now popular King James version which is not thousands of years old, maybe just one thousand. It has been reworked because of opinions.

That is incorrect. The bible has been rewritten many times, but only to make a newer copy when the old one was wearing out. The dead sea scrolls, found in 1947(?) is the oldest manuscript ever found, a thousand years older than any other manuscript known, and proved that the information has remained unchanged, except for small grammatical changes, effectively debunking the "changing bible myth".

Almost as if God were preserving it himself. Creepy.



That is incorrect, unless you consider shaky (at best) translations to be small grammatical changes.

Take this for example: what was originally "girl" in Hebrew became "virgin" after being translated into Greek. The effect? One of the two questions on which the Pope has issued an infallible statement is the question of Mary's virginity—she is a virgin, according to Catholic teachings.

I won't argue your point-that some original meaning may be lost in the translation. But I was arguing Dune's point that it had been manipulated by those in power for their own advancement. The dead sea scrolls proved that the stories are unchanged by time.

Translation from one language to another causes errors. Translation and the changes of meaning due to time bungles it even more. Take for instance, the words q u e e r and g a y (Pardon the filter dodge, please, intellectual purposes, only). They weren't naughty in 1920.

"Reading this thread, I'm sad to say that the only difference between the average American and the average Taliban is economic status."
-Zesty

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ejp414 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 June 2005 at 2:35pm
Originally posted by goodsmitty goodsmitty wrote:

Originally posted by Ejp414 Ejp414 wrote:

Originally posted by goodsmitty goodsmitty wrote:

Originally posted by Dune Dune wrote:

Originally posted by boshiev boshiev wrote:

The Koran has nothing to do with the bible. Even though some retard
decided to use a few quotes and names from the bible, does not mean
that the Koran is based on it. The bible is still the best-selling book in the
world. It is also the oldest, and everthing that is contained in the bible
today is the same that it was thousands of years ago.

You're partially true. The bible has been rewritten many times, including the now popular King James version which is not thousands of years old, maybe just one thousand. It has been reworked because of opinions.

That is incorrect. The bible has been rewritten many times, but only to make a newer copy when the old one was wearing out. The dead sea scrolls, found in 1947(?) is the oldest manuscript ever found, a thousand years older than any other manuscript known, and proved that the information has remained unchanged, except for small grammatical changes, effectively debunking the "changing bible myth".

Almost as if God were preserving it himself. Creepy.



That is incorrect, unless you consider shaky (at best) translations to be small grammatical changes.

Take this for example: what was originally "girl" in Hebrew became "virgin" after being translated into Greek. The effect? One of the two questions on which the Pope has issued an infallible statement is the question of Mary's virginity—she is a virgin, according to Catholic teachings.

I won't argue your point-that some original meaning may be lost in the translation. But I was arguing Dune's point that it had been manipulated by those in power for their own advancement. The dead sea scrolls proved that the stories are unchanged by time.

Translation from one language to another causes errors. Translation and the changes of meaning due to time bungles it even more. Take for instance, the words q u e e r and g a y (Pardon the filter dodge, please, intellectual purposes, only). They weren't naughty in 1920.



I'll agree with that.

And it is true that, despite differences in connotation and that sort of problem through translation, it's very damn well near the same thing—a fact which is fascinating to me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DBibeau855 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 June 2005 at 2:46pm
Yes but these small small changed have a ripple effect that throw off the entire religion, if these changes were never made, think about it, the catholic church would be very very different. There are parts of the bible, that if they were not covered up, or taken out, they would completely turn the catholic church upside down.

For instance, in Greek, Jesus' name is "Logos" Meaning, Body of Christ. When it was translated to Latin, the name was changed to "Corpus Christi" This means, Body of Christ. So when the dominicans read Corpus Christi, they said, "Jesus was the son of god." You have to remember, some preists when all this was going on barely spoke latin. A lot of them their native tounge was either Breton, and easter dialect of french, parisian or southern french, spanish or english. Posibly italian. They didnt always have a working knowledge of latin. So lots of translations were botched.

So in fact, Jesus never says he is the son of god. What he does say, is he is The Way of God. There are passages that support this as well. "The way to god is through me" And also, there are pasages in wich words were used, that mean the same thing if you know what to listen for, but to the layperson, it is completely contradictory to what is meant.

Jesus is about 12, and he wanders off at the market, his parents look and low for him, and finaly find him hours later at the temple talking with the church elders. And they scold him for getting lost and he is offended. "Where else would be but at the temple of my father?" This passage can be taken two different ways. That he is the son of god, this is the tradition way it is interpreted, OR you can think in hebrew, and think logicly taking church law and local customs into it.

1. No one would ever call someone 'Father' who is not, it is disrespectful

2. The catholic church sees a word meaning religious teacher, and they emidiatly stick in the word 'Father'

3. Rabbi basicaly means teacher.

Botched translations like this have completely poluted and corupted christianity.



Edited by DBibeau855
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote goodsmitty Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 June 2005 at 2:56pm

Originally posted by DBibeau855 DBibeau855 wrote:



Botched translations like this have completely poluted and corupted christianity.

For dogmatic legalists, surely. Does the message change, to be good to one another, give to the poor, the message of forgiveness? I would rather someone openly deny its message, than to call the bible corrupt as an excuse not read it for themself.

My knowledge of Islam is limited, but the muslims that I work with and know personally all agree on one thing-that it does not call for mass genocide of Christians or violence. No more so than the old testament of the bible.

Religion is not the problem-the people that misuse it to justify their own flavor of evil are.



Edited by goodsmitty
"Reading this thread, I'm sad to say that the only difference between the average American and the average Taliban is economic status."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DBibeau855 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 June 2005 at 2:59pm
There are many messages in the bible. Fear you god, love your god. Love your neihbor. And anything of power will be twisted in the hands of people that wish to abuse their power. Im going to borrow from the Jedis and say "Those who have power are afraid to lose it." Its true, the people calling muslims to kill, are pushing their own political agenda and calling hill billies that fought the russians to take up arms once again and kill.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dune Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 June 2005 at 3:05pm
I understand what the Dead Sea Scrolls have in them, but they did not possess every piece of information that is in the bible. In fact, many pieces are still missing or unreadable; therefore, there could be plenty of parts that have been added or taken out without our knowledge. This is in no way bashing religion, as I agree that it is the people that ruin it, not the idea of religion itself. I would also agree that these holy books of religion should not be placed on this list either.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote goodsmitty Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 June 2005 at 3:13pm

Originally posted by Dune Dune wrote:

I understand what the Dead Sea Scrolls have in them, but they did not possess every piece of information that is in the bible. In fact, many pieces are still missing or unreadable; therefore, there could be plenty of parts that have been added or taken out without our knowledge. This is in no way bashing religion, as I agree that it is the people that ruin it, not the idea of religion itself. I would also agree that these holy books of religion should not be placed on this list either.

Analogy for you to ponder:

Let's say a company is under the scrutiny of the IRS (Dune). The CPA's building burns down, and 30% of the company's tax records (the Bible) are lost. But of the 70% of the records remaining, they completely exhonorate the company of any wrong-doing and support it's story. Should the IRS (Dune) disregard the good records, or give them the benefit of the doubt, since everything that remains is without error?

"Reading this thread, I'm sad to say that the only difference between the average American and the average Taliban is economic status."
-Zesty

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dune Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 June 2005 at 3:15pm

I am not in disagreement with you smitty. What I'm saying is that people have altrered it, that doesn't mean the true meaning has been altered. I do not have a vendetta against religion, my initial post was to refute a post that said it was the exact same it has been for thousands of years.

I don't think everything that remains in the bible is without error; however, the good greatly outweighs the bad.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DBibeau855 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 June 2005 at 3:27pm
But with these basic changes, many fundamental facts we hold about christianity are false. Islam doesnt have this problem, the Qui'ran is never translated. Only recently has it been translated.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote goodsmitty Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 June 2005 at 3:33pm
Originally posted by Dune Dune wrote:

I am not in disagreement with you smitty. What I'm saying is that people have altrered it, that doesn't mean the true meaning has been altered. I do not have a vendetta against religion, my initial post was to refute a post that said it was the exact same it has been for thousands of years.

I don't think everything that remains in the bible is without error; however, the good greatly outweighs the bad.

I agree, it isn't without translation error. And apparently we both agree the message is probably the same as the writer's original intent.

If that's the case, then my work is done here.....

Back to term paper writing. I'm writing a paper on human embryonic stem cell research, from a legal and ethical point of view. I wish I could get the paper on here somehow. I would like to get a debate about it going.

"Reading this thread, I'm sad to say that the only difference between the average American and the average Taliban is economic status."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote goodsmitty Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 June 2005 at 3:36pm

Originally posted by DBibeau855 DBibeau855 wrote:

But with these basic changes, many fundamental facts we hold about christianity are false. Islam doesnt have this problem, the Qui'ran is never translated. Only recently has it been translated.

Whether he was the son of God, or "of God", is irrelevant. The jews were looking for the Christ, which he claimed to be. Your'e getting wrapped up in semantics.

"Reading this thread, I'm sad to say that the only difference between the average American and the average Taliban is economic status."
-Zesty

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DBibeau855 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 June 2005 at 3:51pm
No im not. Things that we hold to be true are false. Who knows what else is false. For instance, moses never parted the red sea. It was the reed sea north of the red sea, the waters receided, not parted, and the egyption army being drowned was the water comming back in a title wave. Basic miracles and dogma is completely wrong. But i do believe the initial message is still there.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fractus.scud Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 June 2005 at 3:55pm
Originally posted by travis75 travis75 wrote:

I think religon was created to explain what people were confused or uncertain about at the time(sex, morality, origins of the universe, ect.)

I also think that, as science and logic explain more and more about these subjects, religon will die out. 

Many things in the bible have been disproven by people who have the gift of an open mind and the ability to analyze facts.

I think Mr. Hades will agree with me on most of my ideas.

Hmm, yeah right. Religion wasen't created to explain these things. Have you ever read the Bible, Only Genesis explains how God made our universe, However, God couldv'e created the Universe through a "Big Bang". The "Big Bang" theory holds nothing against religion or God. And science has not proven anything in the Bible incorrect, at least nothing major. And people will say it has, and use a shaky interpretation of a verse and twist it into somthing that contradicts a modern theory. And btw, Satan's real name is Lucifer. Jesus real name was pronounced Yeshewa or (I have no clue how to spell it). Chirstians (including Catholics) worship the same God. God even states this in the New Testement. Muslims worship their own god. While their monotheistic beliefs are similar to those of Christians their beliefs are much different. Jesus was an actual historic figure, his life and it's events are down in history. Infact, the Bible is like a history book in a way. And as for the Catholic crusades? Well we had some nutty people in power at the time, and you can't hold us current Catholics (all 1.1 Billion of us) acountable for what some wack jobs did thousands of years ago. The Crusades were wrong, any Catholic today will tell you that, and the Church shouldn't be held accountable for what humans did with it's power.


Benny go home!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DBibeau855 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 June 2005 at 4:08pm
Yes, his real name was lucifer, that was his angelic name, but when he fell from heaven he gained a lot of names, the most unclean one, most blasphemous one, the beast, Shia'tan(is a dgin in the muslim faith, but the same person), the morning star, and a thousand other names.

And in the bible, you hear the story of how Islam was created, two sons of one father went out sepretly, Jacob created the twelve tribes of isreal Judah and Benjamin and the 10 lost tribes. The other son, ended up creating the faith of Islam.

Then, God, upset at the religion had been perverted, he sends David to kill all the muslims, but david stops, and fails.

2 main tribes
Judah
Benjamin

10 lost tribes
Reuben
Simeon
Levi
Dan
Neptali
Gad
Asher
Issacar
Zebulon
Joseoph

Edited by DBibeau855
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote goodsmitty Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 June 2005 at 4:15pm

Originally posted by DBibeau855 DBibeau855 wrote:

No im not. Things that we hold to be true are false. Who knows what else is false. For instance, moses never parted the red sea. It was the reed sea north of the red sea, the waters receided, not parted, and the egyption army being drowned was the water comming back in a title wave. Basic miracles and dogma is completely wrong. But i do believe the initial message is still there.

I can see your point. To each his own.

I have to get to bed. I work the next four nights (12 hour shifts) and haven't gotten a nap yet.

"Reading this thread, I'm sad to say that the only difference between the average American and the average Taliban is economic status."
-Zesty

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DBibeau855 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 June 2005 at 4:19pm
Ouch that sucks.

Note: This has been the best discusion of religion on tippmann.

Edited by DBibeau855
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote goodsmitty Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 June 2005 at 4:29pm

Originally posted by DBibeau855 DBibeau855 wrote:

Ouch that sucks.

Note: This has been the best discusion of religion on tippmann.

I almost feel obligated to throw some flame bomb to make it a typical debate. Oh well, badsmitty will be getting off work about now and do the dirty work...

"Reading this thread, I'm sad to say that the only difference between the average American and the average Taliban is economic status."
-Zesty

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dune Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 June 2005 at 5:01pm
Originally posted by goodsmitty goodsmitty wrote:

Originally posted by DBibeau855 DBibeau855 wrote:

Ouch that sucks.

Note: This has been the best discusion of religion on tippmann.

I almost feel obligated to throw some flame bomb to make it a typical debate. Oh well, badsmitty will be getting off work about now and do the dirty work...

Good points all around, it all depends on how you view it yourself.

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