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Sniping in Paintball

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maddog87 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote maddog87 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 June 2005 at 11:50pm
Originally posted by hybrid-sniper hybrid-sniper wrote:

Originally posted by maddog87 maddog87 wrote:

oh man u are sooooooooo cooooooooolll............................................... ............................................................ .................................................

That wasn't my point, you moron.

then what was your point?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hybrid-sniper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 June 2005 at 12:38am
Originally posted by maddog87 maddog87 wrote:

Originally posted by hybrid-sniper hybrid-sniper wrote:

Originally posted by maddog87 maddog87 wrote:

oh man u are sooooooooo cooooooooolll............................................... ............................................................ .................................................

That wasn't my point, you moron.

then what was your point?

Think about it, good sir.

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SR_Crewchief View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SR_Crewchief Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 June 2005 at 12:43am
Reb, Sorry but I haven't had much time lately to post. I have been slacking in my self appointed task of shedding some light into the dark recesses of fertulized imaginations and miss informed assumptions.

Some of you have already guessed what I'm about to do...It's a little leason document I call "Recreational Paintball 101" or better known as "Why Sniper skills are not effective in paintball"


Alright, Listen up. Itís been left to someone like me to educate youÖAgain.

First some basics need to be established. The game is paintball and for the purposes of this class it is played in the woods where the terrain dictates that youíll be engaging each other most of the time at between 20 and 25 meters. (In other words close range) It is played most often by 2 opposing sides of roughly equal size. For all intent and purposes this game is modeled on military small unit combat.

Now several you are going "whoo hoo, my kind of sniper country"Öwithout knowing what makes a sniper. Many of you have gone to the dictionary and found a reference saying something to the effect that a sniper is someone who fires from concealment and have used this a your basis for your claim to being one in paintball. That's all well and dandy, except you ignore the rest of the definition.

snip∑er ( P ) Pronunciation Key (sn p r)n. A skilled military shooter detailed to spot and pick off enemy soldiers from a concealed place. One who shoots at other people from a concealed place.

Source: The American Heritageģ Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth EditionCopyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

Now youíll note that this expanded definition is still quite general in it scope, after all anyone who squats behind bush to fire is a sniper which is not the case.

So, since the dictionary has not resolved this we must consult the experts for a better definition of what makes a sniper in our chosen environment. It happens that Iíve had the opportunity to do just that from time to time in my 22 years in the Army.

In summary here are the extreme basics of what is an effective sniper:
∑ A superior marksman
∑ Expert knowledge in the art camouflage for concealment
∑ The ability to approach the target without being detected
∑ Engage the target from beyond effective range of return fire
∑ The ability to engage the target without revealing your position
∑ The ability to egress the area after successfully engaging the target without being positively identified and engaged

The first three of these points are possible in the game of paintball, but do not make you a sniper, they just take some training and practice.

Letís look at them one at a time.

A superior marksman

Basically someone whoís shooting skills are well above that of the average player. No big problem here, skill levels very, some people are just plain better than others.

Expert knowledge in the art camouflage for concealment

This one is a little tougher. It takes knowledge of what will fool the eye into not seeing what is really there. Itís still doable though. Trained military have an advantage over the someone whose camouflage skills are solely based on hunting. Not because the non-military hunter is any less skilled but because of who the camouflage is intended to fool. But once armed with the knowledge of what the differences are this isnít even a problem. So, yes this can be effectively applied to paintball.

The ability to approach the target without being detected

This one is a bigger problem. If just taken as being able to move close enough to a player that is already in place to make your shot undetected is very difficult. Since instinctively humans are hunters, our attention is automatically drawn to movement or things that are out of place. Itís takes someone that is extremely skilled in moving undected to pull this one off. But I have seen it done.

I should add to this the ability to setup a position that provides an undetected position from which to shoot that covers an area you expect your opponent to move through. A basic ambush.

Both require an undetected shooting position and can be effectively applied to paintball depending on skill level


The last three points are where the concept of a sniper in paintball fails.

Engage the target from beyond effective range of return fire

No matter what you do, as long as everyone has the same approximate muzzle velocity, everyone has about the same effective range. Yes, that means Flatlines too. While Flatlines do have the ability, do to an aerodynamic backspin, shoot farther than other barrel systems the paintball still loses velocity at the same rate. What this means is that a paintball from a flatline loses the energy to break its shell at the same rate as one fired from a conventional barrel. The advantage of the flatline is initial flat trajectory that paintball has, which allows someone to fire under foliage that would otherwise break the ball. (The first failed point in being an effective sniper)

The ability to engage the target without revealing your position

Since the effective range is around 20-25m means that when you fire you have effectively revealed your general position. What I mean is this. Your shooting from such a close range that either the pop of your ball leaving the barrel or the sound of your bolt cycling (or both) will give your general position away to anyone with average hearing as far away as 40m. Unless you are only engaging 1 or 2 people or are extremely lucking you yourself can now be effectively counted as a mission kill. (The second failed point in being an effective sniper)

The ability to egress the area after successfully engaging the target without being positively identified and engaged

What this means is the ability move to a new shooting position after having engaged a target without being detected and counter-engaged your self. Since itís been demonstrated that you canít effectively engage a target without revealing your initial shooting position and exposing yourself to effective counter fire this one automatically fails. (The third failed point in being an effective sniper)



Now just because you canít effectively apply all of the above tactics of what makes an effective sniper doesnít mean that the first 3 listed canít be applied to paintball. Do they make you a sniper? No. But they do give you the ability to setup an effective close ambush. Just a word of advice here, bring along several friends and you might even be effective at it.


Know really scare the veterans of this forum and demistrate that you've learned something.

SR_Crewchief Out

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Jetinal View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jetinal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 June 2005 at 7:04am
i think with a gun like this any1 could b a sniper, check out link http://www.specialopspaintball.com/articles/the_true_paintba ll_sniper.asp
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SR_Crewchief Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 June 2005 at 11:16am
Originally posted by Jetinal Jetinal wrote:

i think with a gun like this any1 could b a sniper, check out link http://www.specialopspaintball.com/articles/the_true_paintba ll_sniper.asp


The gun is just a tool, as in it is only as good as the craftsman that uses it.

The rest of those "articles" are mix of good information and mis-information, whether deliberate or not is left to the reader to determine. Keep in mind that the object of a retail provider is to sell you something.

Also note that the "gillie suits" in the photos are quite poor for the environment that they are photographed in. (ie even an untrained eye can pick out man shaped greens in a field of browns and greys)

When researching true sniper tactics take note that when all else is removed the absolute basic requirement is to effectively engage targets from beyond effective return fire ranges. This can not be done with the current safety rules(specificly the muzzle velosity restrictions) and technology.
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Predatorr View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Predatorr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 June 2005 at 4:59pm
Originally posted by Darur Darur wrote:

Originally posted by Predatorr Predatorr wrote:

Originally posted by You Wont See Me You Wont See Me wrote:

Darur lives in hawaii, hes gotta be the smartest person on the forums.
 

Burn

to Darur: hokay so what im getting from all of this is that the differneces in mil sniping, and paintball sniping are only the method of propulsion and the type of ammunnition

Yeah, cause you know, the only difference between Earth and Pluto is Pluto is colder . . .

.  Now lets point out the similarities;

1-a gun/marker

So long as we conveniently forget that Paintball guns are as accurate as a drunk man usuing the toliet

 2-concealed position  

Right, but you see, real snipers move and move at such distences that their camoflauge works, they arent little kids sitting in a bush with a ghillie 5 feet from their opponent who is about to light them up.

3-camoflauge worn by "sniper"

A military sniper knows how to use camoflauge, a paintball "sniper" would beleive a hot pink bathrobe with flashing lights would make him "invisible" if the company selling it told him.  Furthermore ghillie suits and camoflauge all have a certain range they work best at.  Woodland camo for example works best at a long distence.  Practically all camo works best at long distences.  Paintball guns (even ones with faltlines) have a very short effective range (50 - 100 ft if you are lucky, and its still quite inacurate).  Camo at such short distences doesnt work as well as it does at long distences.  Furthermore a military sniper is trained not to fidget, not to make sudden moves and how to move with minimal detection, a paintball "sniper" is not.

theres probably more but im too lazy.  We dont n0eed to base what sniping is on how a dictionary defines it. 

Well, if you take everything that you say is a "sniper" you get a woodsballer.  For cripes sake just call yourselves woodsballers.

Sniping is shooting from a consealed position at like 3 or less targets or else the survivors own you. 

Yeah, cause woodsballers focus on a million targets and run around screaming in a kilt.

I do agree however that sniping is nearly impossible unless you have a group of people to protect you when  hits the fan. 

Hmm, wouldnt that make you a woodsballer with a team . . .?

My verdict- Sniping possible-yes if there is fire support, no if you're a lone wolf attempting to take out miltiple targets.  Discuss

What good does "fire support" do if you cant shoot your target from 50 feet away?  All your guns shoot the same distence, why not take your "fire support" and have everyone shoot?

touche darur



Edited by Predatorr
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maddog87 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote maddog87 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 June 2005 at 5:02pm
too bad darur doesnt know anything about woodsball.hahahaha.......................what a (Hey look! I got strike 2!)

Edited by Reb Cpl
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hybrid-sniper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 June 2005 at 9:52pm
Darur and SR own all.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stratoaxe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 June 2005 at 10:31pm

Originally posted by Jetinal Jetinal wrote:

i think with a gun like this any1 could b a sniper, check out link http://www.specialopspaintball.com/articles/the_true_paintba ll_sniper.asp

Those were just modified PB guns-remember, despite whatever bickering there is over the term "sniper", a sniper rifle is a very specific instrument. They're typically built just for sniping-and usually fairly unpractical for average combat. A long range SA paintball is basically just a mod. woodsball gun. For example, in military terms an MP5 would be a close combat weapon, an M-4/XM-8/M-16/whatever would be a standard infantry weapon (though any of those can be modified for "emergency" sniper use-the M-16 being most notable), and the Remington 700 the Marines use would be a weapon made for the specific purpose of sniping. You wouldn't take a .50 Barrett(sp?) into close combat-that's what makes it a specific purpose sniper weapon. This is where one of my main arguments with the sniper crowd is-they use modified weapons and tactics, not specific to their trade. Any PB "sniper" method/gun you could give me, I could relate right back to simply being a woodsball player, as Darur has done a sufficient job of doing. I think it all comes to down to the fact that different people have different ways of using terms like "sniper", "gunner", "scout", or whatever.

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