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Well! This guy’s as good as dead!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WGP guy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 May 2005 at 11:37pm
Originally posted by Clark Kent Clark Kent wrote:

Sure, soldiers die. 

But if you do some research, you will find that soldiering (except during the civil war) isn't the most dangerous profession out there.  Not even close.

Coal miners die in mining accidents to keep us less dependant on foreign oil.  Truckers die in traffic accidents to get us our stuff.  Brokers work in terrorist targets (aka office buildings) to help gain the freedom of retirement.  Construction workers die in accidents so you can watch football.  Lawyers and doctors have tremendous suicide rates due to stress, so you can be healthy and get the stuff you deserve.

Just because you aren't getting shot at doesn't mean you aren't making sacrifices. 

And, of course, soldiers aren't the only ones getting shot at.  KBR has loads of folks getting shot at while driving trucks and building stuff in Iraq, helping get some of the oil money back to the US, and they can't even shoot back. 

And those are just the physical sacrifices.

How about a teacher/professor with a Ph.D. who works for essentially minimum wage to help kids learn stuff?  How about the DOJ lawyer who would be making 6-7 times his salary in the private sector, but instead chooses to serve his country?  Or the physician who chooses to work for peanuts on the res instead of making big bucks in the city?

Soldiers have housing, health care, retirement benefits - lots of other folks don't, who are also making sacrifices for our country.

Are soldiers useful, important, and usually honorable?  Sure.  But so are loads of other folk.



But these "other folks" coudln't do their jobs without soldiers making it possible.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Liquid3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 May 2005 at 11:37pm
Are there any Moderates around here at all?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dune Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 May 2005 at 12:58am
Apparantly only Whale and Clark are the ony ones that truly respect a person's right to free speech. It is the threats made on his life by the idiotic forumers that are illegal. In fact, as I don't truly believe what this guy is saying, I respect it more than those who say "I'mma kill him with a glock .45 (that I'm too young to own)." It's ridiculous, hate him or love him, he has his rights, and threats are against the first amendment. So all in all, what many of these people on the forum are doing is illegal, while he is within his rights of the law.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Homer J Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 May 2005 at 1:23am
I still hold my opinion that he's an attention whore who's creating controversy for its own sake.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dune Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 May 2005 at 1:26am

You might absolutely be correct Homer, but the ideal still stands that those who wish him dead are actually imposing on his rights regardless of how "patriotic" they think they are.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Darur Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 May 2005 at 4:44am
Originally posted by Dune Dune wrote:

Apparantly only Whale and Clark are the ony ones that truly respect a person's right to free speech.


Excuse me?  When did I not respect his right to free speech?  I stated my opinion.  I dont agree in the slightest with what he said but I never said he shouldnt be able to say it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Thor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 May 2005 at 4:47am
sure, soldiers die.

Soldiers also make far more personal sacrifices(for training alone)

Tohe lawyers and doctors yo mention....they get they're respect, in the form ofa paycheck and a degree....a soldier would be in for 25 years and come out with nothing more than a degree in killology and then get his butt whupped by the real world. A doctor and lawyer skills are marketable, a soldiers aren't, because they never thought of needing a degree to get in it for the money and help people....they just wanted to help people.

Argue that soldiers make decent money....but trust me, it's nowhere near what you would get working for private security firms(that recruit around bases daily around here).

Coal miners and truckers death are tragedy's, everyone of them, but a good part are due to neglect, not because someone on "the other side" has a 84 locked on them.

Soldiers get the respect they deserve for many reasons, no one says they are gods, because they certainly are not, they are actually the anti-christ.....that's what i believe....because,likein scarface"djyou need peeple like meh to be de bad guy, djyou need peeple like meh to point your fingher!".

Let the doctors earn they're respect individually....because they're ideal are not lumped and trained together, the soldiers are.

Maybe this may all be a romanticized view of what a soldier should be....but under all the crudeness of the folks around me, these guys are what troops are supposed to be....there is respect in that.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Darur Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 May 2005 at 5:04am
Originally posted by Clark Kent Clark Kent wrote:

Sure, soldiers die. 

But if you do some research, you will find that soldiering (except during the civil war) isn't the most dangerous profession out there.  Not even close.

Coal miners die in mining accidents to keep us less dependant on foreign oil.  Truckers die in traffic accidents to get us our stuff.  Brokers work in terrorist targets (aka office buildings) to help gain the freedom of retirement.  Construction workers die in accidents so you can watch football.  Lawyers and doctors have tremendous suicide rates due to stress, so you can be healthy and get the stuff you deserve.

Just because you aren't getting shot at doesn't mean you aren't making sacrifices. 

And, of course, soldiers aren't the only ones getting shot at.  KBR has loads of folks getting shot at while driving trucks and building stuff in Iraq, helping get some of the oil money back to the US, and they can't even shoot back. 

And those are just the physical sacrifices.

How about a teacher/professor with a Ph.D. who works for essentially minimum wage to help kids learn stuff?  How about the DOJ lawyer who would be making 6-7 times his salary in the private sector, but instead chooses to serve his country?  Or the physician who chooses to work for peanuts on the res instead of making big bucks in the city?

Soldiers have housing, health care, retirement benefits - lots of other folks don't, who are also making sacrifices for our country.

Are soldiers useful, important, and usually honorable?  Sure.  But so are loads of other folk.



Clark, no one is denying that these professions are dangerous or selfless.

Soldiers are respected simpley because they risk their lives everyday for people they may never know all for scant pay and a rough lifestyle.  Its a selfless profession.

However, no one has said the profesions you mentioned are not selfless in their own sense or respectiable in their own way.  Doctors learn to treat and cure humans and care for them in their worst times.  Teachers work for little pay to bring up a generation of youth that will run the world some day.  Lawyers . . .well . . .I wont get into them but no one is denying that these are also selfless professions and to be respected.  There isnt one profession thats above all, its just soldiers are respected for what they do and the trouble they put up with.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MT. Vigilante Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 May 2005 at 11:09am
Originally posted by Clark Kent Clark Kent wrote:

Sure, soldiers die. 

But if you do some research, you will find that soldiering (except during the civil war) isn't the most dangerous profession out there.  Not even close.

Coal miners die in mining accidents to keep us less dependant on foreign oil.  Truckers die in traffic accidents to get us our stuff.  Brokers work in terrorist targets (aka office buildings) to help gain the freedom of retirement.  Construction workers die in accidents so you can watch football.  Lawyers and doctors have tremendous suicide rates due to stress, so you can be healthy and get the stuff you deserve.

Just because you aren't getting shot at doesn't mean you aren't making sacrifices. 

And, of course, soldiers aren't the only ones getting shot at.  KBR has loads of folks getting shot at while driving trucks and building stuff in Iraq, helping get some of the oil money back to the US, and they can't even shoot back. 

And those are just the physical sacrifices.

How about a teacher/professor with a Ph.D. who works for essentially minimum wage to help kids learn stuff?  How about the DOJ lawyer who would be making 6-7 times his salary in the private sector, but instead chooses to serve his country?  Or the physician who chooses to work for peanuts on the res instead of making big bucks in the city?

Soldiers have housing, health care, retirement benefits - lots of other folks don't, who are also making sacrifices for our country.

Are soldiers useful, important, and usually honorable?  Sure.  But so are loads of other folk.

Stop Downgrading our solgiers! These people that you mentioned above don't sacrifice half of what the solgiers in war do! You go over there and fight and watch your friends die, and then tell me whether some accountanat who "sacrifices" hours of his life behind a desk so americans can live fat and happy deserves the same amount of respect as our troops.

Don't you get it! Without our solgiers over there sacrificing thier lives and freedom, we whould have none of the things that accountants and coal miners work for, all of this is given to us by the blood of our troops, which they willingly sacrifice, and that means that they deserve way more respect than Me, the average laborer.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clark Kent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 May 2005 at 11:03am

Originally posted by WGP Guy WGP Guy wrote:

But these "other folks" coudln't do their jobs without soldiers making it possible.

That's arguable (many countries with virtually no military get by just fine).  Matter of definition, perhaps.

It is a certainty, however, that soldiers would not be able to do their jobs (meaningfully) without the scientists to invent weapons, without the manufacturers and businessmen to make the weapons (and trucks, uniforms, lunch, GPS systems, boats, planes...), and the truckdrivers to deliver them.

Soldiers also would not be able to do their job without the lawyers and politicians to create the army in the first place.

All of society relies on each other.  We are inter-dependant.

 

Originally posted by homer homer wrote:

I still hold my opinion that he's an attention whore who's creating controversy for its own sake.

I tend to agree.  It's working, too.

 

Originally posted by Thor Thor wrote:

Soldiers also make far more personal sacrifices(for training alone)

You kidding me?  People spend thousands on personal trainers and shooting camps and karate classes just to get a fraction of the cool training the Marines get. 

Originally posted by Thor Thor wrote:

Tohe lawyers and doctors yo mention....they get they're respect, in the form ofa paycheck and a degree....a soldier would be in for 25 years and come out with nothing more than a degree in killology and then get his butt whupped by the real world.

Fair enough - that's my point.  Lawyers, doctors, and soldiers are all important parts of society.  Soldiers get paid in salutes at the airport (at least in the commercials) and hero-threads on the Tippmann forum, and lawyers/doctors get paid in dollars.  After 25 years, the soldier can retire with benefits, the lawyer will still be working to save for retirement.

Different choices with different results, and different methods of compensation, but all are important parts of society.


Originally posted by Thor Thor wrote:

Coal miners and truckers death are tragedy's, everyone of them, but a good part are due to neglect, not because someone on "the other side" has a 84 locked on them.

Does it matter?  Dead is dead - dangerous is dangerous.  By this theory, firemen aren't entitled to props either. 

And I can't believe you just quoted Scarface.  Good lord.

 

Originally posted by Darur Darur wrote:

Soldiers are respected simpley because they risk their lives everyday for people they may never know all for scant pay and a rough lifestyle.  Its a selfless profession.

Well, kind of.

Last survey I saw, most people joined the military for the benefits - steady pay, G.I. cash for college, job training, and so forth.  Others join for fun, adventure, and the chance to blow stuff up.  Others join for family tradition.  Other than a blip right after 9/11, most people in the US military did not join due to overwhelming selflessness.  Then, of course, there are the draftees - many/most soldiers who served in Vietnam and WWII (revered today) were drafted.  Were they also selfless?  Since 9/11 the news has been full of people who joined the military, who are now claiming "hey, this [getting shot at] isn't what I signed up for."  They just wanted to be weekend warriors.  Sacrifice was the last thing on their mind.

I'm sorry - I just don't buy the "noble sacrifice" theory as a single, or even predominant, explanation for military service.  Does it come into play for many people?  Sure, but it is nowhere near the end-all be-all of motivation.  That is just too simple an explanation, and is therefore itself not a sufficient justification for excessive soldier-worship.

And let's talk about risking they lives.  Many soldiers get shot at or otherwise exposed to danger - yes.  But oh-so many members of the military are in absolutely no danger whatsoever.  The cook at the Pentagon?  The on-base JAG?  The CIA intelligence liaison?  The cryptograher, the interpreter, the naval base mechanic?  What danger are they in?  I would suggest that they are SAFER than the general public.  There will be a general draft long before those guys are sent into combat.

Please explain to me how some guy who is a short-order cook on a carrier (when there is no other large navy left in the world), who joined for the bennies, is any more of a hero than the short-order cook at your local diner.  They diner guy will see combat before the carrier guy does, and is working for less in the meantime.

Originally posted by Darur Darur wrote:

There isnt one profession thats above all

On this we can certainly agree.

 

Originally posted by Montana Montana wrote:

Don't you get it! Without our solgiers over there sacrificing thier lives and freedom, we whould have none of the things that accountants and coal miners work for, all of this is given to us by the blood of our troops, which they willingly sacrifice, and that means that they deserve way more respect than Me, the average laborer.

We can play the "cause" game all day long.  How about your parents?  Without parents, we (literally) wouldn't have anything.  Yet all I see on this forum all day long is people complaining about their parents.  Your parents have done more for you, and sacrificed more for you, than any soldier.  But people brag about the soldiers and complain about their parents.  Go figure.

Look, people.  I'm not saying that soldiering isn't a potentially honorable profession.  I am simply saying that some of the hero-worship is just out of proportion.  WAY out of proportion.

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bugg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 May 2005 at 11:09am
Quote Thor wrote:
Tohe lawyers and doctors yo mention....they get they're respect, in the form ofa paycheck and a degree....a soldier would be in for 25 years and come out with nothing more than a degree in killology and then get his butt whupped by the real world.

Not true. The US is the only country on earth to bury it's private snext to its generals. No matter if you die in war or peace, you gte a full military honors burial. And to say they get whooped when they come out is ignorance.

Once you are in the marines or army, it's easier to become a cop or a secruity professional, or a DSA agent.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DBibeau855 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 May 2005 at 11:40am
The only soldiers that have foght for our freedom were the soldiers that foght in the American Revolution... There has never been an attack on American soil that significantly jeopardized our freedom.

Men in mogadishu, are not fighting for our freedom.

Men in Iraq, are not fighting for our freedom.

Men in Korea, this is debatable, if the stuff hits the fan, it could avert a nuclear strike.

To spout "They are fighting for our freedom" Is idiocy, the people that are truely fighting for your freedom, is most likely lawyers, judges, and libral political action commites. You may not like thier view on a lot of things. But, they do more than you think, and you enjoy many of the freedoms you have today because of these groups.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bugg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 May 2005 at 11:46am
DBIB, a lot of conservative groups are also fighting for yoru freedom, as you put it.

Ok, true, they aren't fighting for freedom like back in the revolution, but they ARE fighting to keep us from fear.

Now before you say "They arne't doing a good job at it" When was the last attack on American soil, eithe by a country or terrorist organization? 4 years ago almost. That's beceause
1) countries know we would whoop their ass if they attacked us
2) terrorist roganizations that were capabale of doing it are now in shambles, the heads of their organizations cut off.

So yes, not from freedom of speach, but from freedom from fear and death in our own homes. And don't mention crazy murders, you know what I mean.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DBibeau855 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 May 2005 at 11:51am
I know all that. I just get tired of kids on the tippmann forum yelling about how soldiers "Fight for our freedom" They arent, they protect our borders and foreign interests. They call it "Oporation Iraqi Freedom" for a reason. Its not our freedom that is being foght for. Its theirs.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bugg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 May 2005 at 11:53am
Originally posted by DBibeau855 DBibeau855 wrote:

I know all that. I just get tired of kids on the tippmann forum yelling about how soldiers "Fight for our freedom" They arent, they protect our borders and foreign interests. They call it "Oporation Iraqi Freedom" for a reason. Its not our freedom that is being foght for. Its theirs.
Ok, they don't fight for our freedom, but they fight to protect it from people that want to take it away. Period.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DBibeau855 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 May 2005 at 11:57am
Muslim fundamentalism teaches, either be muslim or nothing. Terrorists dont want to take away our freedom, they dont want to enslave us. They just want us dead.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote merc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 May 2005 at 12:02pm
to bad he doesnt have the gonads to say that on a bull horn in virginia beach.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DBibeau855 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 May 2005 at 12:19pm
I would love it if he said that stuff in public. He would be beaten by a mob.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote procarbinefreak Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 May 2005 at 12:27pm
yeah... give the soldiers the most respect out of anyone... w/o them we wouldn't have the oil to make the gas to drive around in our massive gas guzzling SUVs...

i mean... that is what we went over there for... right?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DBibeau855 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 May 2005 at 12:31pm
Yes, i would say, that i agree. Its not like we cant do that. Our military forces are there to protect foreign intrests, and oil is a foreign interest. I dont really see a problem. We just want a little love in the form of oil. And we got rid of a pesky dictator/murderer in the process.
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