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Darur View Drop Down
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Points: 9170 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Darur Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 April 2005 at 11:25pm
Originally posted by 636andy636 636andy636 wrote:

Originally posted by WGP guy WGP guy wrote:

Well, with my parents job, we have 4 large caliber hand guns in the
house.  The only problem, when I am home alone if anything were to
happen, I know where the bullets are but not the gun.  I'm sure I
could find it, but it would take a good 5 minutes which I wouldnt
have.  The best I could do would be to load 20 pellets in my bb
gun with 2x the recomended pumps so i could have a shotgun
effect.  Although I don't think that would help.  Basically I
am saying I would feel safer if my parents told me where they keep
their firearms.  The only problem is that they know me and if I
hear something in the night I take my loaded bb gun (its always loaded
at night, but the bolt is open) and check it out.  I've almost
used it on accident.


your bb gun is not going to kill somone. most likly piss them off or if you do have a shot in one area i know and it penitrates far enuf it will kill but if it dont you will have a lawsuit (probly with assalt with a deadly wepon)


That stuff is such bull crap.  A farmer here was arrested and was charged with manslaughter or murder (not sure which) for shooting and killing an armed robber on his property.  Granted a jury will likely find him not guilty, but seriously he has a right to protect his property.

Ona  brighter note robberies on farms have dropped significantly since.
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Dune View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Slothbutt Slothbutt wrote:

Sup Dune?
Originally posted by Slothbutt Slothbutt wrote:

Dune what do you think about CCW? good idea of not? Do you carry when your off duty? and just out of curiosity what do you carry?


I agree with Zesty 100%, don't make guns such a hands off no-no for kids, that only makes them more curious about them.
And I'm getting a AR-15 the day they become legal in CA or the day I move from this wonderful state.

Sorry, I did not see your post. I have very mixed feelings bouat CCW, but for the most part I'm against it. I as an officer feel less safe than I use to, and every stop increasingly could be my last. I do carry off duty, because I am still an peace officer no matter what I am wearing, and I'm obligated to respond to any call around me. I carry an H&K USP compact in .40 cal.

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Zesty View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Dune Dune wrote:

It's amazing how many people actually fear being victimized, especially on the forum. I think that's just an overused excuse.



I wouldn't fear being victimized as much if I didn't have people like you trying to take my guns!
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Zesty View Drop Down
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Originally posted by DBibeau855 DBibeau855 wrote:

I dont think we need 90lbs soccar moms with automatic weapons. Crime rate wont matter, when someone tries to steal her purse and she lets out a spray of bullets, more n likely, a stray bullet will hit someone. I think we should make bullets VERY expensive. People would think twice before firing a shot.



Yeah, that'd be just great! Then all the rich people can decide who they'll kill next with their $10,000 .44 Magnum slug, while us poor folks hope we don't step on their penny-loafers and get a cap popped in us proper-like.

Stop regurgitating Chris Rock rhetoric.

*Edit* No ones saying everyone should have automatic weapons, if you read my posts you will see I say just that. But IMHO, the whole point is so that as many healthy-minded people as possible have access to and own and carry guns amd ammo...this way, when walking down the street, you simply do not know who is strapping...this is good incentive to be on your best behavior!

Also, I think that poor people have just as much right to defend themselves than rich ones, so it don't think raising the price of ammo is gonna help.


Edited by Zesty
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Zesty View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Clark Kent Clark Kent wrote:

I tend to be sympathetic to not being sympathetic towards intruders.  BUT - don't underestimate the tactical advantages of non-lethal measures.  With a firearm you have to be (or at least should be) really really sure who you are shooting at.  With Mace (or w/e) you have no such concern.  Mace first, ask later.  Significant advantage in confusing situations.


In addition, check google for "oops, I thought you were an intruder" shootings.  The numbers are quite tragic.


Generally speaking, last time I checked (been a while), the number of "used mah gun to defend myself" incidents aren't even close to the number of incidents where guns bought for that purpose end up resulting in accidental deaths, suicides, or murder.  Not even close.



Here's my BIG problem with your comparisons.....you seem to not understand that in your scenario, with me armed with "pepper spray or mace", I may very well end up DEAD if the intruder is packing anything more than a can of mace himself!

You don't seem to care about that, and for that I don't think you're seeing the whole picture.

If all I have handy is a knife or pepper spray, what if the intruder has a firearm? I would be dead and look like an idiot for taking pepper spray to a gun fight.

You need to stay prepared, and you guys want to take away my only means of being prepared!
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Zesty View Drop Down
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And as for all your statistics, here's some for all of you:

Times Zesty has shot someone w/ firearms = 0
Times Zesty has had a gun stolen = 0
Times Zesty has pulled a gun on someone accidentally = 0
Times I have shots something I didn't want to = 0
Zesty's Accidental Kill/Gun's Stolen Total = 0

So, why should I have my right to own a gun taken away just because someone else isn't responsible?

People crash everyday in cars doing things they shouldn't be doing, but people just accept it as a part of life. But when someone gets shot people act like they MUST take this scourge the "firearm" out of society....I say suck it up and chock up another loss... accidents happen.

Edited by Zesty
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Zesty View Drop Down
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Originally posted by holysmartone holysmartone wrote:

I just had to write a report on this for english class. I found a ratehr interesting source of information. This source defeats MANY of the pro-gun control arguments. Gun Control


"Medical mistakes kill 400,000 people per year - about one fully loaded jumbo jet crash per day - or about 286 times teh rate of all accidental firearm deaths. This translates into 1 in 6 doctors causing an accidental death, and 1 in 56,666 gun owners doing the same." Thats from the paper listed above. The facts are there. I personally am very against gun control. I believe that if every law abiding citizen is armed, crime will fall. I believe everyone(every law abiding citizen) should be able to carry a concealed weapon, and if they break the law, the permit will be revoked. Automatic weapons will still be limited to the military, but if crime rates fall, it can be allowed to the public.



Sorry Dune and Clark, but I think this is a much better post! LMAO
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Zesty View Drop Down
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Originally posted by 636andy636 636andy636 wrote:

Originally posted by WGP guy WGP guy wrote:

Well, with my parents job, we have 4 large caliber hand guns in the
house.  The only problem, when I am home alone if anything were to
happen, I know where the bullets are but not the gun.  I'm sure I
could find it, but it would take a good 5 minutes which I wouldnt
have.  The best I could do would be to load 20 pellets in my bb
gun with 2x the recomended pumps so i could have a shotgun
effect.  Although I don't think that would help.  Basically I
am saying I would feel safer if my parents told me where they keep
their firearms.  The only problem is that they know me and if I
hear something in the night I take my loaded bb gun (its always loaded
at night, but the bolt is open) and check it out.  I've almost
used it on accident.


dude. you would need alot of shots with a BBgun unless your intruder is a squirel.

your bb gun is not going to kill somone. most likly piss them off or if you do have a shot in one area i know and it penitrates far enuf it will kill but if it dont you will have a lawsuit (probly with assalt with a deadly wepon)
So what do you suggest he does then? You don't want him to have a gun, and you don't want him to shoot him with an airgun....what's acceptable defense for you and your family?

When your Dad hears an intruder outside, does he just curl into the fetal position and wait for the cops to come?
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Zesty View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Slothbutt Slothbutt wrote:

Sup Dune?
Originally posted by Slothbutt Slothbutt wrote:

Dune what do you think about CCW? good idea of not? Do you carry when your off duty? and just out of curiosity what do you carry?


I agree with Zesty 100%, don't make guns such a hands off no-no for kids, that only makes them more curious about them.
And I'm getting a AR-15 the day they become legal in CA or the day I move from this wonderful state.


Well, seeing as how you agree with me, you MUST be of sound mind, so I fully support your mission to aquire that fine piece!

Just hit me up once you get it and we can go shoot it and make up for our small penis'.
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Zesty View Drop Down
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Originally posted by DBibeau855 DBibeau855 wrote:

Im very good with a knife. Ive been known to grab my knife or machete and run outside after someone. Done it twice, someone was kicking my door, another time, it was my buddy doin it to mess with me because i had told him someone was kicking my door. So i started kicking his door in the middle of english class.


That's all good......until you run into an intruder that's good with a gun.
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Zesty View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Dune Dune wrote:

Originally posted by Slothbutt Slothbutt wrote:

Sup Dune?
Originally posted by Slothbutt Slothbutt wrote:

Dune what do you think about CCW? good idea of not? Do you carry when your off duty? and just out of curiosity what do you carry?
I agree with Zesty 100%, don't make guns such a hands off no-no for kids, that only makes them more curious about them. And I'm getting a AR-15 the day they become legal in CA or the day I move from this wonderful state.


Sorry, I did not see your post. I have very mixed feelings bouat CCW, but for the most part I'm against it. I as an officer feel less safe than I use to, and every stop increasingly could be my last. I do carry off duty, because I am still an peace officer no matter what I am wearing, and I'm obligated to respond to any call around me. I carry an H&K USP compact in .40 cal.



Oh great, so I can't have a gun but I get to rely on you to protect me because you are so noble as to be a police officer.

I'm pretty sure crooked cops are the #1 opposers to CCW....they want to beat you in the head with their billy-club without fear of getting their come-uppings!

Honestly, I don't see why you would be worried about a law-abiding citizen having a concealed handgun...so long as you are nice, respectful, polite, and fair everything will work out fine.

*Edit* Shouldn't you treat everyone the same anyways? Like, you should just assume that everyone is armed...in your line of work, there is no place to be complacent. It's a dangerous job and you should be on your toes and ready for anything despite what the current laws are.



Edited by Zesty
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Clark Kent View Drop Down
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Originally posted by holysmartone holysmartone wrote:

I just had to write a report on this for english class. I found a ratehr interesting source of information. This source defeats MANY of the pro-gun control arguments. Gun Control

And I hope your researched the other side as well?  Basing an argument on information from a lobbying group is not a good idea.

Quote "Medical mistakes kill 400,000 people per year - about one fully loaded jumbo jet crash per day - or about 286 times teh rate of all accidental firearm deaths. This translates into 1 in 6 doctors causing an accidental death, and 1 in 56,666 gun owners doing the same."

And this is a reason why you should research more.  This is an inane "argument" and public abuse of statistics.

Quote I personally am very against gun control ... Automatic weapons will still be limited to the military, but if crime rates fall, it can be allowed to the public.

And you don't see the inherent inconsistency there?  Sounds like you are very much IN FAVOR of gun control.
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Clark Kent View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Zesty Zesty wrote:

Here's my BIG problem with your comparisons.....you seem to not understand that in your scenario, with me armed with "pepper spray or mace", I may very well end up DEAD if the intruder is packing anything more than a can of mace himself!

You don't seem to care about that, and for that I don't think you're seeing the whole picture.

Since my points appear to be getting lost, I will state them louder (sorry):

1.  I AM IN FAVOR OF PERSONAL GUN OWNERSHIP, FOR SELF DEFENSE OR OTHERWISE.

2.  I THINK MANY PEOPLE HAVE AN UNREALISTIC EXPECTATION OF HOW SAFE THEIR GUN REALLY MAKES THEM.

3.  I THINK MANY PEOPLE UNDERESTIMATE NON-GUN SELF PROTECTION METHODS AND TOOLS.

4.  I AM NOT SAYING THAT KNIVES/MACE/W/E ARE "BETTER" THAN GUNS - JUST THAT THEY HAVE SOME GOOD FEATURES, AND GUNS HAVE SOME WEAKNESSES.

 

There.  Sorry for the yelling.

How about a safe room, for instance?  In the time it takes you to grab your shotgun and run downstairs, you could just as well run into your safe room.  They are easy to make.  Heck, you could even put a gun in your safe room if you like.  Sure, a safe room won't protect your TV or your machismo, but they do a good job of keeping your family alive.

I could go on - there are so many options, most of which are never considered.

All I am saying that people are too quick to jump to "gun" as the best/only option, and usually ignore/overlook the dangers/problems associated with guns for self protection.  Remember, unless you are awake with gun in hand, your gun is useless.

Most people don't really think this through.  They have watched too many movies, and have a very heroic image of saving the day.  Reality just ain't that clearcut.

 
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What about my argument? I haven't done anything unsafe or wrong with my guns....I have owned guns for about a decade and I have never once had even a remotely negative incident occur...nothing but awesome hunting stories and peace of mind from having a nice little tool leaning up in the corner.

I don't care about statisticsm or possibilities, I just care about what I've experienced for over half my life....guns don't have brains! They need a HUMAN BEING to fire them!

We need better humans, not less guns.
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Originally posted by Zesty Zesty wrote:

And as for all your statistics, here's some for all of you:

Times Zesty has shot someone w/ firearms = 0
Times Zesty has had a gun stolen = 0
Times Zesty has pulled a gun on someone accidentally = 0
Times I have shots something I didn't want to = 0
Zesty's Accidental Kill/Gun's Stolen Total = 0

How about these:

Number of times Zesty has woken up in the middle of the night, heard a suspicious sound, grabbed shotgun, gone to investigate.

Number of times Zesty has woken up in the middle of the night, heard a suspicious sound, gone back to sleep.

Number of times Zesty has slept right through the suspicious sound.

Those are the more relevant statistics...

 
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Safe room? How much is that gonna cost to truly have a "safe" room?

What's your opinion of safe?

Mine is a 12guage Winchester Defender leaning in the corner...yours is a safe room.

You can have your safety and I can have mine, no need for one or the other, or for my standard of safety to be the same as yours.

To me, I am 6'2" and 170 pounds, and am pretty athletic. If bad things go down, I don't want to be locked in a room, I don't care how safe it is.

I want to be on the move, with my shotgun in my hand.

If that makes me feel safer than mace or a safe room or anything else you suggest, what do you really care?

It's my safety we're talking about, and as long as you don't do anything bad to me, I won't degrade your state of safety.
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Zesty View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Clark Kent Clark Kent wrote:

Originally posted by Zesty Zesty wrote:

And as for all your statistics, here's some for all of you: Times Zesty has shot someone w/ firearms = 0 Times Zesty has had a gun stolen = 0 Times Zesty has pulled a gun on someone accidentally = 0 Times I have shots something I didn't want to = 0 Zesty's Accidental Kill/Gun's Stolen Total = 0


How about these:


Number of times Zesty has woken up in the middle of the night, heard a suspicious sound, grabbed shotgun, gone to investigate.


Number of times Zesty has woken up in the middle of the night, heard a suspicious sound, gone back to sleep.


Number of times Zesty has slept right through the suspicious sound.


Those are the more relevant statistics...


 

I've grabbed my gun and gone to investigate on about a dozen occassions. On 3 of these occasions, we(me and my father) caught people stealing chmicals from our ranch. We held them at gunpoint until the cops showed(which was easily 30 minutes later)...I don't think mace would have deterred them as well!

Really never....if it's suspicious, then I don't go back to sleep until I figure out what made the sound...call me paranoid.

And, I really wouldn't know the number of times I've slept through a sound because I am, well, sleeping.

I think the most inportant fact is that I'm still alive and feel safe, and that I'm not breaking any laws with my gun ownership.
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Originally posted by Zesty Zesty wrote:

Safe room? How much is that gonna cost to truly have a "safe" room?

As with all things, "safe" is relative.  A reinforced door to the bathroom won't cost more than a nice shotgun.

Quote What's your opinion of safe?

Mine is a 12guage Winchester Defender leaning in the corner...yours is a safe room.

That's not what I am saying - you're not listening.

Quote I don't want to be locked in a room, I don't care how safe it is. ... I want to be on the move, with my shotgun in my hand.

That's to my point - this isn't about safety, it is about your personal desires.

Quote If that makes me feel safer than mace or a safe room or anything else you suggest, what do you really care?

I don't.  Go nuts with your shotgun.
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I think it's about safety and personal desires.....why does it have to be one or the other?
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Originally posted by Zesty Zesty wrote:

I've grabbed my gun and gone to investigate on about a dozen occassions. On 3 of these occasions, we(me and my father) caught people stealing chmicals from our ranch. We held them at gunpoint until the cops showed(which was easily 30 minutes later)...I don't think mace would have deterred them as well!

Let me make a distinction here...   Strikes me that you/your shotgun serves partly a "security guard" purpose, as opposed to purely a "intruder in the bedroom" purpose.

Mixing those two together may be screwing up the arguments, since I certainly view those as very different circumstances warranting very different actions.
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