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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 636andy636 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 April 2005 at 2:04pm
Originally posted by Zesty Zesty wrote:

I keep a 12guage shotgun leaning against the wall by the bed where I sleep.

The magazine tube holds 8 rounds with one in the chamber, but I just keep the magazine full.





oh yeah. keeping a loaded firearm by your bed is a safe thing.

I laugh at you for being so parinoid to keep a loaded firearm by your bed for the rare instance that somthing might happen. thats like me not serving food on fine china exept for when the pope comes to visit me, or the queen of england or or or. its pointless.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tippmannboy2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 April 2005 at 2:04pm
Originally posted by Dune Dune wrote:

Originally posted by tippmannboy2 tippmannboy2 wrote:

OK     Most of the anti gun arguments are from people that have never shot a gun or been in a situation when you needed one. I carry a .22 pistol in my truck and under my matress when im not in the truck. The gun is unloaded,magizine is not in, and the action is open. That gun has never been pointed at anybody and probably never will but it makes my mom feel safer and I. I dont live in the "boonies" (well kinda) but I do live where ALOT of break ins and robberies happen. If somebody is stealing inside my house they certianly will get a leg full of lead. I dont want to kill anybody. I wont kill any one unless my life or the life of a loved one is certianly at risk. I shoot guns every saturday for fun and hunt with guns. I also hunt bows.

If they outlaw guns only outlaws will have them. I personaly dont care if they do outlaw them. I always have and always will own multiple firearms.

Just the same old rhetoric of "we must protect ourselves." Being an officer and someone who uses guns daily, I don't like the thought of just anyone having a gun with them, and we do not have tight enough legislation currently that makes me feel safer.

 

I do think that if you must have a hunter saftey course before you buy a firearm.    (not just for hunting, Its about to carry and safely use your firearm)

Long Live The Confederacy

I am an AMERICAN AND IM PROUD OF IT!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clark Kent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 April 2005 at 2:05pm

Originally posted by tippmannboy2 tippmannboy2 wrote:

OK     Most of the anti gun arguments are from people that have never shot a gun or been in a situation when you needed one.

Which anti-gun arguments are these, and who are these people making them?

I like guns, and favor personal ownership.  I just want a rational discussion.

The guy on the forum who is most outspoken in favor of more gun control is Dune, and he is a police officer.  I'll presume he has fired a gun or two.

Quote I carry a .22 pistol in my truck and under my matress when im not in the truck. The gun is unloaded,magizine is not in, and the action is open. That gun has never been pointed at anybody and probably never will but it makes my mom feel safer and I.

And "feel" safer is the operative term.  Do you expect to get a 20-minute warning before a break-in, so that you can wake up, put on your PJ's, turn on the light, dig under the mattress for the gun (where did I put the $%$^%$##$!! ammo), and load it?

The number of situations where that gun would actually help you is so miniscule that you are better off buying that personal lightning rod I mentioned earlier.

I understand feeling safer.  But feeling safer is very different from actually being safer.

Quote If somebody is stealing inside my house they certianly will get a leg full of lead. I dont want to kill anybody.

So your plan, after you have loaded your gun (with your intruder patiently waiting), is to delicately shoot the intruder in the leg?

Sorry, dude, but your plan bears no resemblance to reality.

Quote If they outlaw guns only outlaws will have them. I personaly dont care if they do outlaw them. I always have and always will own multiple firearms.

Think about this quote for a minute...  what does that say about you?



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clark Kent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 April 2005 at 2:06pm

Originally posted by WGP guy WGP guy wrote:

Originally posted by Clark Kent Clark Kent wrote:

not intervening in a potential abduction because "I didn't have my gun".
Uh, about that.  My dad was about to but they drove away.  It kind of looked like they were playing, and no one really took much notice.  We didn't see it till they were about to leave.

So basically this had absolutely nothing to do with guns at all.

gg

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 April 2005 at 2:08pm

The right to bear arms is not about hunting.

It is not about protecting yourself and your family.

It is not about being able to say "Hey Bubba, check out what I just got."

It is about keeping the ultimate right of veto in the hands of the average citizen.  It is about the militia (colonial definition-white male landowners; commonly accepted current definition-citizens over the age of 18) being equipped to get the attention of an unresponsive/tyranical government the same way the colonies got the attention of the British back in the 1700s. 

The bill of rights were written because those were specific rights that were being infringed upon by the British Government.  The right to keep and bear arms is the "teeth" of the bill of rights.  The framers of the constitution reasoned that is easier to defend your right to free speech, or a free press if you have the means to do so. 

What does this mean in today's world?  If George W. declared himself King George III and refused to allow further elections does it mean that an armed militia would rise and defeat the forces backing him. No it doesn't.

  • Hopefully a significant portion of the military would choose to follow their oath to "support and defend the constitution of the United States" as opposed to backing an illegal power grab by a duly elected politician.
  • What military support he had would still be better equipped than any citizens defending their rights, but how willing they would be to slaughter their own citizens in another question.  Keep in mind armed citizens are much easier to slaughter than subjugate. 
  • Furthermore, a widespread rebellion would easily outnumber the military forces that could be mustered to suppress it.  (It would be like playing "Whack-a-Mole" with one hammer and 100 mole holes.)
  • A common argument for changing the constitution to support stricter gun control is that we now have a government we can trust and certain portions of the bill of rights are no longer relevant.  The "liberal" gun control crowd would like to see the second amendment changed/reinterpreted, but their are also "conservative" attacks on freedom of the press and protection from search and seizure.
    • Anyone who follows the news should be concerned about some of the current debates regarding the Patriot Act.  The potential for the abuse of some of it's existing provisions is scary and is the best argument I can think of for not tampering with the constitution.

Now a couple of quotes just for Clark Kent because I know how much he appreciates them.

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither."
- Ben Franklin

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
- Edmund Burke



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clark Kent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 April 2005 at 2:18pm
Originally posted by Mack Mack wrote:

The right to bear arms ... is about keeping the ultimate right of veto in the hands of the average citizen.  It is about the militia (colonial definition-white male landowners; commonly accepted current definition-citizens over the age of 18) being equipped to get the attention of an unresponsive/tyranical government the same way the colonies got the attention of the British back in the 1700s. 

That's your opinion, but I am not sure that it is correct. 

The law is not clear on this, but the principal Supreme Court case on the subject (US v. Miller) ruled that a citizen did NOT have a 2d Amendment right to own a sawed-off shotgun because that weapon was not of "militia type".

But "militia" is a word that the NRA has loved to take out of context.  It appears elsewhere in the Constitution, in Article I, granting Congress the authority "To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions; ..."  (emphasis added)

According to the Constitution, and US v. Miller, a militia is apparently something that serves the government, not something that opposes it.

But, like I said, that law is not very clear on this subject.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zesty Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 April 2005 at 4:22pm
Originally posted by 636andy636 636andy636 wrote:

Originally posted by Zesty Zesty wrote:

I keep a 12guage shotgun leaning against the wall by the bed where I sleep.

The magazine tube holds 8 rounds with one in the chamber, but I just keep the magazine full.





oh yeah. keeping a loaded firearm by your bed is a safe thing.

I laugh at you for being so parinoid to keep a loaded firearm by your bed for the rare instance that somthing might happen. thats like me not serving food on fine china exept for when the pope comes to visit me, or the queen of england or or or. its pointless.
Your analogy is bunk...this is life and death stuff we're talking here, not you're homo-ass china!

I laugh at you for being so naive....have you ever shot a 12gauge, pump-action shotgun?

Like I said, I keep the magazine full with 8 shots, and the chamber clear....the gun must be racked in order to fire a round.

In my opinion, I feel completely safe with this. If you don't like it, don't come over to my house, especially uninvited or unexpected!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zesty Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 April 2005 at 4:35pm
This is the way I feel....as with anything, I don't totally support gun owenership. To most people, I'd be considered a "gun nut", but people that really get to know me will realize that I truly try my best to see all points of an issue.

Anyways, most of you bring up some good points....I don't think everyone should own a gun. But I truly feel the world would be a better place if we stopped demonizing guns and treated them as the thing they truly are: a wonderful, dangerous, and deadly tool.

Instead of telling kids to stay away from guns, only to have them grab one as soon as they get alone with one, they should be familiarized with them! I'm sure a good percentage of the shooting deaths result from plain old ignorance on the operation of the firearm! Start including Gun Education in schools, mandatory stuff with films of what guns can do just like the DMV's "Red Asphalt"!

Basically, we already have too many restrictions on guns! The problem with gun restrictions is that only people that follow laws will obey them!! All they do is give the honest, law-abiding citizens les chance to defend themselves. If you're a robber, it would be a lot easier to rob someone knowing they aren't carrying a gun!

We already have required Gun Safety classes in order to get your hunting license and own a shotgun/rifle, and you need another separate handgun certificate to own a handgun. To me, this is enough.

The fact is, people have killed other people since they were around, and guns weren't invented yet! That's right, murder and wars existed long before firearms.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clark Kent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 April 2005 at 4:48pm

Zesty, I generally agree, but you will find that the specific rules vary from place to place.  In most of the country, no gun safety class is required for any firearm or hunting license, other than CC licenses, which kind of frightens me.  I figure if you need to learn how to drive before getting in a car, you should learn how to shoot before getting a gun.

Which restrictions in particular do you consider "too many"?  Which ones do you want to do away with?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 636andy636 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 April 2005 at 5:23pm
Originally posted by Zesty Zesty wrote:

Originally posted by 636andy636 636andy636 wrote:

Originally posted by Zesty Zesty wrote:

I keep a 12guage shotgun leaning against the wall by the bed where I sleep.

The magazine tube holds 8 rounds with one in the chamber, but I just keep the magazine full.





oh yeah. keeping a loaded firearm by your bed is a safe thing.

I laugh at you for being so parinoid to keep a loaded firearm by your bed for the rare instance that somthing might happen. thats like me not serving food on fine china exept for when the pope comes to visit me, or the queen of england or or or. its pointless.
Your analogy is bunk...this is life and death stuff we're talking here, not you're homo-ass china!

I laugh at you for being so naive....have you ever shot a 12gauge, pump-action shotgun?

Like I said, I keep the magazine full with 8 shots, and the chamber clear....the gun must be racked in order to fire a round.

In my opinion, I feel completely safe with this. If you don't like it, don't come over to my house, especially uninvited or unexpected!


the china stuff was a example

no i have not shot a 12 gauge pump action shot gun. altho there is one in a locked fireproof gun case 30 feet away from me(not my firearm, my uncles), i know how to use it just never fired it because hes never taken me hunting

a shotgun to make you feel safe at night? LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clark Kent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 April 2005 at 5:27pm
You really should shoot it, andy...   You don't really "know how to use it" until you've shot it, and shot it a lot.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ItsJustMe2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 April 2005 at 5:30pm
I just don't agreee with the logic to just shoot anybody that comes into your house... like Zesty said, "uninvited or unexpected". Like, have you never had friends show up and hang out?

Knock Knock.
Hey Zeztey its your buddy Joe.
WTF? I didnt invite you!
Pow.
I want to look cool like IJM and type centered.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tae Kwon Do Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 April 2005 at 6:02pm

Originally posted by WGP guy WGP guy wrote:

Originally posted by Clark Kent Clark Kent wrote:

not intervening in a potential abduction because "I didn't have my gun".
Uh, about that.  My dad was about to but they drove away.  It kind of looked like they were playing, and no one really took much notice.  We didn't see it till they were about to leave.

So if you would have had a gun you would have charged across the street as the public serving superman you are, loaded and ready, even though it looked like they were joking?

 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tae Kwon Do Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 April 2005 at 6:06pm

So for you all who keep loaded or easily accessible firearms loose in your house, you should probably know that the majority of breaking and entering happens when the owner is not home. The first thing they look for after loose cash? Firearms. Oh, and guess what, most all the guns criminals use start off as legit, legal firearms.

Just coincidence I suppose.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tae Kwon Do Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 April 2005 at 6:08pm

Originally posted by Clark Kent Clark Kent wrote:

You really should shoot it, andy...   You don't really "know how to use it" until you've shot it, and shot it a lot.

But Clark, what if a group of a dozen ex-KGB commandos bust in my house at midnight, all armed with crowbars and 3 hours high on crystal-meth?? What then hunh??

I will whip out my shotgun I keep loaded at all times within reach and take them out SEAL style as they enter my house, thats what.

Now quiet you dirty ammendment hating lefty.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 636andy636 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 April 2005 at 12:15am
Originally posted by Clark Kent Clark Kent wrote:

You really should shoot it, andy...†† You don't really "know how to use it" until you've shot it, and shot it a lot.


i need to get a FAC before i can legaly shoot it

shot guns arnt my thing anyway. ever since i shot a 45 ACP in arizona ive wanted a hand gun. too bad the canadian firearm laws are strict about restricted (handguns) firearms. like you can only shoot them at ranges, you can get a licance to shoot it in like the bush. i remember reading that the government can take it away from you even if you have done nothing wrong with it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Slothbutt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 April 2005 at 1:11am
Sleeping next to my shotgun makes me feel warm and fuzzy inside..
I will probably never have to us it but I like being able to look at it and think I'm prepared.
I just don't like it when anyone tells me how to live my life, you arn't the one that's being affected so don't tell me what to do.
Without the 2nd amendment what stops the government from taking the first?
And Dune what do you think about CCW? good idea of not? Do you carry when your off duty? and just out of curiosity what do you carry?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Guy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 April 2005 at 1:34am
Keeping a firearm out, loaded and in plain sight is probly one of the worst things you can do.

As I've learned from my forensics class, anyone killed in a house by a knife; 95% of the time, the knife is from the butcher block.

A person armed with the proper knowledge of a firearm will be able to defend themselves if an issue comes up.

As far as I can see, most of the arguements for gun control in this thread are just phalacies (so are some against).

I also believe in less-lethal force. But until they allow civilians to use beanbags and rubber baton in their shotguns, buckshot will have to do.

Most people who own guns will probly never have to use them. Some will. Anyone attacked though that doesn't have a means to protect themselves doesn't have a chance. Whereas an armed homeowner still has a chance at survival in a home invasion.

I have seen my share of police reports. Someone breaks into a house, kills everyone inside, so they can take their time stealing stuff. The photos arn't pretty. Especially when you see the body of a 3 month old baby whose head was beaten in with a flashlight.

I'm sure a few of your attitudes will change when you have a family in your house.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zesty Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 April 2005 at 8:22am
Clark Kent, it's not really that I want all the laws repealed, I'm fine with most of them.... I would like to have an M16, and I think they should make some sort of class 3 weapons test to make them available to responsible people in every state, but I'm not gonna whine if I can't get it so long as I have access to stuff that can defend me properly.

Just for people that think everybody is running around with a gun, these are just SOME of the CA restrictions:

"State of CA Firearms Prohibiting Categories

Unless otherwise stated, if you fall into any of the following categories you are prohibited from possessing a firearm in CA for life.

-Person convicted of a felony or any offense in section 12021.1 of the Penal Code.
-Person who is a fugitive from justice.
-Person while under indictment for just about anything.
-Person whoís addicted to drugs.
-Person denied a firearm as a condition of probation.
-Juveniles who are or were wards of the juvenile court because of some crime they committed canít own a firearm until they reach age 30.
-Person who has just about any kind of restraining order filed against them canít possess a firearm while the restraining order is in effect.
-Person found by a court to be mentally incompetent to stand trial, found not guilty to some crime by reason of insanity, or found to be a mentally disordered sex offender.
-Person placed under a conservatorship because of a mental disorder or alcoholism.
-Person who communicates a threat to a licensed psychotherapist against someone else and the psychotherapist reports it to law enforcement is prohibited from possessing a firearm for the next six months.
-Person taken into custody as a danger to self or others and committed to a mental health facility is prohibited from possessing a firearm for the next 5 years.
-Person who is a voluntary patient in a mental health facility is prohibited from possessing a firearm between admission and release.
Firearms Prohibiting Misdemeanors

Any person convicted of any of the following misdemeanors is prohibited from owning a firearm in CA for 10 years following the conviction.

-Threatening public officers, public employees, school officials, public appointees, judges or their staff or immediate families.
Intimidating witnesses or victims.
-Attempting to take a firearm away from a police officer.
-Unauthorized possession of just about any kind of weapon in a state or local public building or at a public meeting.
-Possessing a loaded firearm within the state capitol or legislative offices.
-Possessing a loaded firearm within the governorís mansion or the residence or any other constitutional officer.
-Providing a firearm to a person for use by a criminal street gang.
-Assault or battery on anyone.
-Assault with a stun gun, taser, deadly weapon, or any instrument likely to produce great bodily injury.
-Shooting at an inhabited dwelling or just plain grossly negligent discharge of a firearm.
-Willful infliction of physical injury on a spouse, former spouse, cohabitant, former cohabitant, or the mother or father of a child of one of these people.
-Violation of a court order against harassment, disturbing the peace, threats or acts of violence, or violating a domestic protective/restraining order.
-Drawing, exhibiting, or using any deadly weapon other than a firearm for any reason except self-defense.
-Drawing or exhibiting a firearm in the presence of a police officer.
-Purchasing, selling, manufacturing, shipping, transporting, distributing, or receiving an imitation firearm. This does not include obvious toys.
-Inflicting serious bodily injury by drawing or exhibiting a firearm or any other deadly weapon.
-Threatening to commit any crime that might result in the death or great bodily injury to another person.
-Possessing a firearm in a school zone or on school grounds.
-Willfully, maliciously, and repeatedly following or harassing another person (stalking).
-Carrying a loaded firearm with the intent to commit a felony.
-Possessing any deadly weapon with the intent to assault anyone.
-Allowing a firearm in or to be discharged from a motor vehicle that you own or are driving (no matter who in the vehicle has possession of the firearm).
-Criminal possession of a firearm in public while wearing a mask.
-Unauthorized possession, transportation, manufacture, or sale of a machinegun.
-Possession of armor piercing ammunition.
-Carrying a concealed or loaded firearm or any deadly weapon or wearing a police uniform while picketing. (Does this include real cops?)
-Bringing or sending contraband into or possessing contraband within a juvenile or youth authority institution. (Contraband could be a pack of cigarettes)
Firearms prohibitions as specified in sections 8100, 8101, & 8103 of the Welfare and Institutions Code (You gotta look this up yourself). "

That alone is enough restirctions for me! But that's just the tip of the iceburg.





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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zesty Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 April 2005 at 8:26am
"The guy on the forum who is most outspoken in favor of more gun control is Dune, and he is a police officer"


Hahaha, that's kinda why we like our guns....cops seem to dislike us having them!

Seriously though, one of the foremost reasons to stay armed is from corrupt government officials....I'm sure they would LOVE it if they KNEW there were no guns in the house they were about to raid, but I don't think it should be that way....everyone should have to second guess whether their next move can get them dropped by a .357 slug! Keeps people on their best behavior.

I guarantee, in a house where cops know there are no guns, they aren't gonna be as nice and cooperative as in the one that has a 12guage leaning in the corner.

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