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Zesty View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zesty Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 April 2005 at 8:31am
Originally posted by ItsJustMe2 ItsJustMe2 wrote:

I just don't agreee with the logic to just shoot anybody that comes into your house... like Zesty said, "uninvited or unexpected". Like, have you never had friends show up and hang out?

Knock Knock.
Hey Zeztey its your buddy Joe.
WTF? I didnt invite you!
Pow.


I didn't say I'll shoot anybody that comes over to my house uninvited! Stop putting words into my mouth!

I said, if you don't like me having a gun, don't come over to my house...it's that simple.

My friends hang out at my house a lot, but they know not to come over unexpectedly or they may get a gun pulled on them...they seem to deal with it fine and just call before they come over...problem solved!

Seriously though, unless you were gonna break into my house, I dont see any reason for you to be concerned with whether or not I'm strapping.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zesty Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 April 2005 at 8:34am
Originally posted by Tae Kwon Do Tae Kwon Do wrote:


So for you all who keep loaded or easily accessible firearms loose in your house, you should probably know that the majority of breaking and entering happens when the owner is not home. The first thing they look for after loose cash? Firearms. Oh, and guess what, most all the guns criminals use start off as legit, legal firearms.


Just coincidence I suppose.



Guess what, I don't care! I have the gun to protect myself! If it's sitting in a safe, it's no good to me!

Am I going to tell Mr. Prowler," Please wait while I enter my combination, turn the key, pull out my shotgun, rack one in, aim and shoot you."

No, I just reach over, rack one in, and am ready for anything....whether it be a crooked cop or some crackhead or anyone trying to take what's mine...they'll get lead from me.

If someone steals my gun, I really don't care....it's worth a stolen gun to know I am safe when I'm home!

I'd rather have my gun stolen than me dead!!!!!!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zesty Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 April 2005 at 8:37am
As far as the "less-lethal" forms of defending yourself, they would be great if we didn't live in the society we do! This is the country where a burglar can break into your house, slip and fall and hurt his back, and actually sue you for it and WIN!!!!!

I'm not taking any chances shooting some dude with a beanbag or salt pack when all that's gonna happen is he's gonna sue my ass and get rich....I'm just gonna drop him dead in his tracks, call the cops and tell them what happened, and everyone gets to hear my side of the story as opposed to the dead burglars....seems fair to me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dune Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 April 2005 at 9:10am

It's amazing how many people actually fear being victimized, especially on the forum. I think that's just an overused excuse.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DBibeau855 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 April 2005 at 9:11am
Originally posted by Zesty Zesty wrote:

As far as the "less-lethal" forms of defending yourself, they would be great if we didn't live in the society we do! This is the country where a burglar can break into your house, slip and fall and hurt his back, and actually sue you for it and WIN!!!!!

I'm not taking any chances shooting some dude with a beanbag or salt pack when all that's gonna happen is he's gonna sue my ass and get rich....I'm just gonna drop him dead in his tracks, call the cops and tell them what happened, and everyone gets to hear my side of the story as opposed to the dead burglars....seems fair to me.


Thats exactly the way i think.
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Clark Kent View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clark Kent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 April 2005 at 9:19am

I tend to be sympathetic to not being sympathetic towards intruders.  BUT - don't underestimate the tactical advantages of non-lethal measures.  With a firearm you have to be (or at least should be) really really sure who you are shooting at.  With Mace (or w/e) you have no such concern.  Mace first, ask later.  Significant advantage in confusing situations.

In addition, check google for "oops, I thought you were an intruder" shootings.  The numbers are quite tragic.

Generally speaking, last time I checked (been a while), the number of "used mah gun to defend myself" incidents aren't even close to the number of incidents where guns bought for that purpose end up resulting in accidental deaths, suicides, or murder.  Not even close.



Edited by Clark Kent
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dune Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 April 2005 at 9:28am
Originally posted by Clark Kent Clark Kent wrote:

I tend to be sympathetic to not being sympathetic towards intruders.  BUT - don't underestimate the tactical advantages of non-lethal measures.  With a firearm you have to be (or at least should be) really really sure who you are shooting at.  With Mace (or w/e) you have no such concern.  Mace first, ask later.  Significant advantage in confusing situations.

In addition, check google for "oops, I thought you were an intruder" shootings.  The numbers are quite tragic.

Generally speaking, last time I checked (been a while), the number of "used mah gun to defend myself" incidents aren't even close to the number of incidents where guns bought for that purpose end up resulting in accidental deaths, suicides, or murder.  Not even close.

Excellent post.

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Mack View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 April 2005 at 10:16am
Originally posted by Clark Kent Clark Kent wrote:

Originally posted by Mack Mack wrote:

The right to bear arms ... is about keeping the ultimate right of veto in the hands of the average citizen.  It is about the militia (colonial definition-white male landowners; commonly accepted current definition-citizens over the age of 18) being equipped to get the attention of an unresponsive/tyranical government the same way the colonies got the attention of the British back in the 1700s. 

That's your opinion, but I am not sure that it is correct. 

It's not an opinion, it's an accepted fact (even by academic liberal elites) and it is based upon the personal papers of the founding fathers of this country.  Since I know how much you love quotes I have a couple from Thomas Jefferson.  (Author of the Declaration of Independence and a member of the Continental Congress.)

  • "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms."  (Jefferson Papers, page 334, C.J. Boyd, 1950)
  • "The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."  (Thomas Jefferson Papers, p. 334 1950)
  • "And what country can preserve its liberties, if its rulers are not warned from time to time, that this people preserve the spirit of resistance?  Let them take arms...The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants. (Jefferson, on Democracy, p. 20, 1939, Padover, editor; excerpt from a letter to William S. Smith, 13 Nov 1787)

 

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Clark Kent View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clark Kent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 April 2005 at 10:27am

Originally posted by Mack Mack wrote:

It's not an opinion, it's an accepted fact (even by academic liberal elites)

If that were true, then by definition I would accept it as fact.  Since I do not accept it as fact, you are incorrect.

Your position is a popular one, particularly as to the original intent of the Founders, but not necessarily the correct statement of law.

Quote ...and it is based upon the personal papers of the founding fathers of this country. 

And that is where you went wrong.  While the Federalist Papers are useful background information, they are NOT law.  US v. Miller, on the other hand, IS law.  Article I of the US Constitution is also law.  Did you read Article I?  Did you read US v. Miller?

They both trump the Federalist Papers.

Quote Since I know how much you love quotes I have a couple from Thomas Jefferson.  (Author of the Declaration of Independence and a member of the Continental Congress.)

  • "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms."  (Jefferson Papers, page 334, C.J. Boyd, 1950)
  • "The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."  (Thomas Jefferson Papers, p. 334 1950)
  • "And what country can preserve its liberties, if its rulers are not warned from time to time, that this people preserve the spirit of resistance?  Let them take arms...The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants. (Jefferson, on Democracy, p. 20, 1939, Padover, editor; excerpt from a letter to William S. Smith, 13 Nov 1787)

I do love a good quote, and Jefferson is always a classic.  Your quotes, however, are completely irrelevant to the issue at hand.

Read Article I of the US Constitution, and then read US v. Miller.

 



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 April 2005 at 10:50am

I've read both and I've come to the conclusion that you live in a fantasy world untouched by reality and debating with you is a waste of my time as you will merely dismiss anything you disagree with rather than give it a moments consideration.  Hopefully any info/opinions I post will be useful to others (whichever way they decide) in making up their minds.

Edited Note:

Article 1 U.S. Constitution

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

I included this since CK mentioned it.  I've always wondered what makes people think that if one part of the Bill of Rights is taken away, the rest won't be soon to follow.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clark Kent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 April 2005 at 10:55am

Then you should also read my posts.

I am not saying that you are wrong - I am saying that your position is not "widely accepted" as "fact". 

 

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote merc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 April 2005 at 10:57am
has anyone here ever called the police? or any other "emergency" service? i have they dont respond all that fast in some instances it has been over an hour before a police officer came. i have had a fire less than one mile away from a fire station and it has taken over 5 mins for them to arrive. having a gun for protection is smart not paranoid. when bad things happen they happen now and fast not in a few mins or when help arrives...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dune Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 April 2005 at 10:59am
Clark is still right. There are more accidents involving guns and "responsible" gun owners than there are needs for having "protection." More innocents are dead, not criminals.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 April 2005 at 11:04am
Originally posted by Clark Kent Clark Kent wrote:

Then you should also read my posts.

I am not saying that you are wrong - I am saying that your position is not "widely accepted" as "fact". 

With that in mind I will reread your posts to see if that is what you actually said.  And, I may to a certain extent agree with that.  I will admit that some of the staunchest second amendment defenders I know refuse to argue this point because of the inherent political baggage it carries with it.  They prefer instead to argue the self-defense side of the issue.  Actually, I have a friend who is rabidly anti-gun, and while he acknowledges the original intent of the second amendment, he will not address it in his arguments either.  When I force him to do so his general response is "it's not needed in today's society."

It is almost like the "establishment" on both sides of the issue would rather set up off-topic points than deal with the historical realities of the situation.  Hmmmmm.

Edited Notes: 

  • My apologies for the "fantasy world" statement by the way, that was uncalled for.
  • This is off-topic but I should have included it earlier:  My position is that no government (democrat/republican, liberal/conservative, red/blue, whatever) should be trusted to far when given the opportunity to infringe upon the rights/freedoms of those they represent.


Edited by Mack
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote holysmartone Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 April 2005 at 8:13pm

I just had to write a report on this for english class. I found a ratehr interesting source of information. This source defeats MANY of the pro-gun control arguments. Gun Control

"Medical mistakes kill 400,000 people per year - about one fully loaded jumbo jet crash per day - or about 286 times teh rate of all accidental firearm deaths. This translates into 1 in 6 doctors causing an accidental death, and 1 in 56,666 gun owners doing the same." Thats from the paper listed above. The facts are there. I personally am very against gun control. I believe that if every law abiding citizen is armed, crime will fall. I believe everyone(every law abiding citizen) should be able to carry a concealed weapon, and if they break the law, the permit will be revoked. Automatic weapons will still be limited to the military, but if crime rates fall, it can be allowed to the public.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DBibeau855 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 April 2005 at 8:21pm
I dont think we need 90lbs soccar moms with automatic weapons. Crime rate wont matter, when someone tries to steal her purse and she lets out a spray of bullets, more n likely, a stray bullet will hit someone. I think we should make bullets VERY expensive. People would think twice before firing a shot.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WGP guy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 April 2005 at 8:29pm
Well, with my parents job, we have 4 large caliber hand guns in the house.  The only problem, when I am home alone if anything were to happen, I know where the bullets are but not the gun.  I'm sure I could find it, but it would take a good 5 minutes which I wouldnt have.  The best I could do would be to load 20 pellets in my bb gun with 2x the recomended pumps so i could have a shotgun effect.  Although I don't think that would help.  Basically I am saying I would feel safer if my parents told me where they keep their firearms.  The only problem is that they know me and if I hear something in the night I take my loaded bb gun (its always loaded at night, but the bolt is open) and check it out.  I've almost used it on accident.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DBibeau855 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 April 2005 at 8:32pm
Im very good with a knife. Ive been known to grab my knife or machete and run outside after someone. Done it twice, someone was kicking my door, another time, it was my buddy doin it to mess with me because i had told him someone was kicking my door. So i started kicking his door in the middle of english class.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Slothbutt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 April 2005 at 10:22pm
Sup Dune?
Originally posted by Slothbutt Slothbutt wrote:

Dune what do you think about CCW? good idea of not? Do you carry when your off duty? and just out of curiosity what do you carry?


I agree with Zesty 100%, don't make guns such a hands off no-no for kids, that only makes them more curious about them.
And I'm getting a AR-15 the day they become legal in CA or the day I move from this wonderful state.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 636andy636 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 April 2005 at 10:48pm
Originally posted by WGP guy WGP guy wrote:

Well, with my parents job, we have 4 large caliber hand guns in the
house.  The only problem, when I am home alone if anything were to
happen, I know where the bullets are but not the gun.  I'm sure I
could find it, but it would take a good 5 minutes which I wouldnt
have.  The best I could do would be to load 20 pellets in my bb
gun with 2x the recomended pumps so i could have a shotgun
effect.  Although I don't think that would help.  Basically I
am saying I would feel safer if my parents told me where they keep
their firearms.  The only problem is that they know me and if I
hear something in the night I take my loaded bb gun (its always loaded
at night, but the bolt is open) and check it out.  I've almost
used it on accident.


dude. you would need alot of shots with a BBgun unless your intruder is a squirel.

your bb gun is not going to kill somone. most likly piss them off or if you do have a shot in one area i know and it penitrates far enuf it will kill but if it dont you will have a lawsuit (probly with assalt with a deadly wepon)
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