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Clark Kent View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clark Kent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 April 2005 at 9:57pm
Originally posted by TheUnknown. TheUnknown. wrote:

"This year will go down in history. For the first time, a civilized nation has full gun registration. Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient, and the world will follow our lead into the future!"
-Adolph Hitler, 1935.

Another random slogan...

Some people spend too much time on the NRA website, and not enough time thinking originally.

Now all we need is somebody to say "Guns don't kill people.  People kill people."

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Darur Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 April 2005 at 10:04pm
Originally posted by Clark Kent Clark Kent wrote:

Originally posted by TheUnknown. TheUnknown. wrote:

"This year will go down in history. For the first time, a civilized nation has full gun registration. Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient, and the world will follow our lead into the future!"
-Adolph Hitler, 1935.

Another random slogan...

Some people spend too much time on the NRA website, and not enough time thinking originally.

Now all we need is somebody to say "Guns don't kill people.  People kill people."

 



Right, but until the slogan's point has been dissproven it still applies, true?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clark Kent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 April 2005 at 10:09pm

Originally posted by WGP guy WGP guy wrote:

Why would you enter a potentially hostile situation without being sure you would be able to help?  Thats putting 2 more lives on the line.  The people around didn't seem to take notice, so I assumed it was a boyfriend.  This guy looked about 40, but we were at least 200 feet away.

There are oh so many things wrong with this.

You appear to believe that a gun is the only difference between helping and not helping.  Both parts of that are problematic.

You can help with a cell phone.  You can help by yelling loudly.  You can help by noting the plate number.  If you need to satisfy your machismo, you can help by rasslin' the guy to the ground.  You can help by following in your car, or in a cab (and you get to yell "follow that car!").  And so on, depending on the particulars of the situation.

If you had a gun, would you go charging in?  Sounds like the situation was quite ambiguous, and you were far away.  Do you plan on taking pot shots at 200 feet with a pistol, into a potential hostage situation with bystanders?  Do you plan on shooting before you fully understand the situtation?  Do you plan on running across the street with gun drawn in public (which might get you shot by another vigilante, in a cruel twist of fate)?  Would you try to confront the guy, now having found your courage, and try to outdraw him, old West style, if he has a shootin' iron too?  What exactly do you expect to accomplish with your gun in this scenario?

Here's what this sounds like to me:  Father sees questionable situation, and doesn't have the gumption to do anything about it.  Not wanting to appear weak in front of his kid, daddy pulls off a lame line about "son, I wouda helpt her, but I don't got my gun."

Fact is, most of the best ways to "help" in this situation have absolutely nothing to do with guns, and everything to do with brains, eyes, quick decisions, and perhaps a cell phone.

Some people like to augment their testicles with firearms.  While they are certainly welcome to do so, that doesn't mean that guns are as important as some people think they are.

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 636andy636 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 April 2005 at 10:11pm
Originally posted by WGP guy WGP guy wrote:



Originally posted by 636andy636 636andy636 wrote:

right to bear arms.


bear arms are delicious!

in canada we have some strickt firearm laws. wich obviously worked when thos police officers were killed in Edmonton.


crimnals will ALWAYS get guns no mater what.

yeah. law abiding people wont kill somone? yeah right. people
change. they could be intoxicated and shoot somone with there firearms.
or they can be shooting in a safe invorment like a range and they can
still kill somone. ricochets are deadly

people are WAY parinoied if they carry a firearm with you around
town and stuff. how offen do you fell the need to use deadly force.
and seriously. does anyone need a assalt rifle?


Well, in Wilmington while getting food, me and my dad saw what we
seemed a kidnapping.† We say this black male (about age 35-45)
kicking and shoving a black female (age 15-20) into an SUV at a gas
station.† Had my dad bothered to bring one of his Colt 1911 .38 beretta, he would
have probably gone and checked it out.


your telling me you seen a kid napping happen and did not try and stop it.

yeesh. if i seen that happening and i had no protection i would still check that out. because i would at least trying to prevent that.

or run in and go to the clerk and ask for the bat behind the counter...
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oh good, a mech gun with eye covers and a rippoff Jackel frame ... ANS - "Stealing ideas since teh begining"


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Clark Kent View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clark Kent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 April 2005 at 10:14pm

Originally posted by Darur Darur wrote:

Right, but until the slogan's point has been dissproven it still applies, true?

Nope.  These slogans haven't met their prima facie case.  They are nonsense until somebody provides some evidence of legitimacy.

Example:  "If you can read this, you aren't the President"

Does that make you feel like you have to now prove that Bush can read?  Of course not - it's a stupid slogan.

Same thing goes for most everything the NRA is responsible for.

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Darur Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 April 2005 at 11:41pm
Originally posted by Clark Kent Clark Kent wrote:

Originally posted by Darur Darur wrote:

Right, but until the slogan's point has been dissproven it still applies, true?

Nope.  These slogans haven't met their prima facie case.  They are nonsense until somebody provides some evidence of legitimacy.

Example:  "If you can read this, you aren't the President"

Does that make you feel like you have to now prove that Bush can read?  Of course not - it's a stupid slogan.

Same thing goes for most everything the NRA is responsible for.

 



Well, the Hitler one technically isnt a slogan and it is true in that he said that . . .

Ah crap, I'm proving your point, right?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clark Kent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 April 2005 at 12:11am
:)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Slothbutt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 April 2005 at 12:55am
How many rapes are there every year?
How many of those women own cell phones?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Homer J Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 April 2005 at 6:07am
Let's say your wife and children are upstairs sleeping. What are you going to do when someone breaks into your house, wielding a machete, and is high on PCP? Call the cops? Reason with him? Accept your "fate" (and decide your family's fate at the same time)? Keep in mind, stabbing him likely won't faze him, he's so out of it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clark Kent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 April 2005 at 7:40am

First - Bizzarrely unlikely.  Do you also walk around with a lightning rod strapped to your back, just in case lightning strikes? 

Second - There are non-gun preventative measures.  Phones in the bathroom (so that after you yell out, your wife can call the cops locked in the bathroom), alarm systems, non-gun weaponry, reinforced doors, etc.

Third - Even if you had a gun:  Are you sitting downstairs, awake, gun in hand, keeping watch all night while your family is sleeping?  That gun does you no good unless it is in your hand, and you are awake and alert to fire it.  And even then you still might end up chop suey.

The whole "must defend family from home invaders" generally creates the false idea that you are (a) helpless without a gun, and (b) invincible with a gun.  Neither are true.  In some cases, I would suggest that a gun is even a hindrance rather than an aid.

As I said above, if you want to enhance your testicles with firearms, be my guest.  If you actually want to improve your safety situation, a more comprehensive and rational approach should be taken.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zesty Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 April 2005 at 8:53am
I keep a 12guage shotgun leaning against the wall by the bed where I sleep.

The magazine tube holds 8 rounds with one in the chamber, but I just keep the magazine full.

If I hear something that wakens me, and it sounds like anything out of the ordinary, I reach over, rack my shotgun, and stay silent.

If I hear some more commotion, I may go out to check what's up, but most likely I'm gonna sit and listen.

Basically, I live about 5 miles out of town, and your suggestion of using a phone in place of a gun truly made me laugh!

You are speaking with a closed mind...you sound like some neighborhood watch man that feels his whole block is safe because you look out your window every hour.

If the prior scenario comes down to an intruder entering my house, armed, looking to take my property or life, I personally don't want to rely on the speedy service of my local law enforcement!

If you want to, that's fine. But I would prefer to rely on my Winchester Defender and 8 shots of double-ott rather than some donut-dunking pig that doesn't give a crap about anything but going home to HIS family at the end of the night.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clark Kent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 April 2005 at 9:19am

I should clarify further.

Are there situations where a gun is the appropriate safety tool?  Clearly.

If I lived in the boonies, I would certainly have numerous firearms handy.  No doubt.  But most people don't live in the boonies. 

And even so, most people vastly overestimate the effectiveness of guns for home protection.  You keep your shotgun by the bed - would you keep the loaded gun there if you had a 6-year-old wandering around at night?  Most people with small children keep their guns at least tucked away, which reduces their effectiveness.

Most people are sleeping at night, which further reduces the effectiveness of the gun.  Most people are under covers, in the dark, and generally not alert, all of which reduces the effectiveness of the gun.

I am in no way saying that guns are useless for home defense, or even that there aren't times when they are the best solution.

What I AM saying is that many people vastly overestimate their utility, as aptly demonstrated by the example earlier in this thread about not intervening in a potential abduction because "I didn't have my gun".

Most people have a very unrealistic picture of how something like this would actually go down, and are living in some John Wayne fantasy.  That is my point.

And as to weapons, there are other choices than guns.  While firearms are clearly the most effective weapon available to most folks, it is TOO effective, to the point where it has to be locked up, and may cause collateral damage, which reduces their utility.  A good knife, for instance, is not nearly the weapon that a gun is, but a knife is more likely to be handy than a gun, and a knife in hand is better than a gun in rack.  A knife is also less likely to accidentally kill the guy in the guest room, so you can use it without worrying about backstop issues.  I always have a knife in a pocket - do you carry a gun all day in your house?

I am not advocating that knives are "better" than guns - I am simply suggesting that "it ain't that simple".

Clearly, yes - in a deathmatch with an intruder I would love to have a gun.  But home invasions aren't like that - they don't call ahead.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote whoknowswho Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 April 2005 at 12:21pm
Originally posted by Tae Kwon Do Tae Kwon Do wrote:

Originally posted by WGP guy WGP guy wrote:

Originally posted by Tae Kwon Do Tae Kwon Do wrote:

Originally posted by WGP guy WGP guy wrote:

Originally posted by Badsmitty Badsmitty wrote:

Why have guns?  To rise up when your gubment takes away rights?  Oh wait, we already have the Patriot Act, mandatory random drug testing in the workplace and are holding "terrorists" without any legal representation.  At least clay pigeons are being kept in check.


Well, guns are fun to shoot.  I don't really know what you were implying there if anything, but I don't hunt, I just find joy in going to the shooting range and shooting targets.  Its just fun.

Ok. Crack is fun to smoke. Why isnt it ok?



Because...its bad for you?  I don't know.  Most people that have guns don't use them in ways that harm others.  Crack harms you.  So you can't really compare that.  Crack is always going to harm you, guns used in the right way won't hurt anyone.

They both have the potential to kill you. Even if it isnt on purpose, a bullet in the head is bad for your health.

What about pot? Pot dosent always harm people, should we make that OK?

That is the most pointless argument. If we outlaw everything that could hurt you if misused, then forks, lawn mowers, paintball markers, books, spoons, sticks, rocks, paper, metal objects, cars, letter openers, glass, computers, hands, feet, food, beer, gasoline, doors, shoes, shoe laces, magic markers, coins, trees, fences, crayons, firecrackers, and everything else I forgot would need to be outlawed to keep us safe.

BTW, I think both Zesty and Clark Kent have valid points. Hunting, sport shooting, target competitions, all of these are situations in which firearms are needed. Also, a gun usually provides a great deterrent and helps prevent crimes. I think that firearms are a useful tool. No amount of laws will prevent gun crime. Just take a look at Australia. They have really benefitted from banning firearms. I do think that laws are necessary though. There is no reason for anyone to have a fully automatic weapon in their personal collection. Laws should be strictly enforced with NO leeway. 



Edited by whoknowswho
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bunkered Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 April 2005 at 1:28pm
Clark, how about this slogan:

Guns don't kill people... I kill people.

Name that movie.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clark Kent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 April 2005 at 1:29pm

UHF

Gotta do better than that...   :)

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bunkered Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 April 2005 at 1:37pm
Hrm. I was thinking Happy Gilmore (his old boss's t-shirt), but whatever. They probably stole it from the one you named.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tippmannboy2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 April 2005 at 1:46pm

OK     Most of the anti gun arguments are from people that have never shot a gun or been in a situation when you needed one. I carry a .22 pistol in my truck and under my matress when im not in the truck. The gun is unloaded,magizine is not in, and the action is open. That gun has never been pointed at anybody and probably never will but it makes my mom feel safer and I. I dont live in the "boonies" (well kinda) but I do live where ALOT of break ins and robberies happen. If somebody is stealing inside my house they certianly will get a leg full of lead. I dont want to kill anybody. I wont kill any one unless my life or the life of a loved one is certianly at risk. I shoot guns every saturday for fun and hunt with guns. I also hunt bows.

If they outlaw guns only outlaws will have them. I personaly dont care if they do outlaw them. I always have and always will own multiple firearms.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WGP guy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 April 2005 at 1:55pm
Originally posted by Clark Kent Clark Kent wrote:

not intervening in a potential abduction because "I didn't have my gun".
Uh, about that.  My dad was about to but they drove away.  It kind of looked like they were playing, and no one really took much notice.  We didn't see it till they were about to leave.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dune Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 April 2005 at 1:55pm
Originally posted by tippmannboy2 tippmannboy2 wrote:

OK     Most of the anti gun arguments are from people that have never shot a gun or been in a situation when you needed one. I carry a .22 pistol in my truck and under my matress when im not in the truck. The gun is unloaded,magizine is not in, and the action is open. That gun has never been pointed at anybody and probably never will but it makes my mom feel safer and I. I dont live in the "boonies" (well kinda) but I do live where ALOT of break ins and robberies happen. If somebody is stealing inside my house they certianly will get a leg full of lead. I dont want to kill anybody. I wont kill any one unless my life or the life of a loved one is certianly at risk. I shoot guns every saturday for fun and hunt with guns. I also hunt bows.

If they outlaw guns only outlaws will have them. I personaly dont care if they do outlaw them. I always have and always will own multiple firearms.

Just the same old rhetoric of "we must protect ourselves." Being an officer and someone who uses guns daily, I don't like the thought of just anyone having a gun with them, and we do not have tight enough legislation currently that makes me feel safer.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clark Kent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 April 2005 at 1:58pm

Originally posted by Bunkered Bunkered wrote:

Hrm. I was thinking Happy Gilmore (his old boss's t-shirt), but whatever. They probably stole it from the one you named.

I forgot about that t-shirt...  another great movie.

In UHF there was a mini-commercial with grumpy old guy telling the camera this fine slogan...

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